Also , it would ad a significant amount of manpower , both in military terms and as possible colonists , although scandinavia is large it doesnt have a big population , this would be a big boost , and as i said the cultural implications should be very interesting.
Union of The Three Crowns: The History of The Nordic Empire
- Thread starter Gabingston
- Start date
But that would sour it's relationships with England and in the long term Scandinavia can't compete with England or France, the Population difference is just too much. Also a Union would be difficult to maintain. I don't understand why the Scots would consent to this union. After all the British Isles was only United when a Scottish king inherited England, Also with the presence of England in the South, it would just be a Burden that can be invaded by England anytime.
Yeah I agree, I think it'd make the relationship between Scotland and England a lot more complicated which may dissuade the Scandinavians from doing so. A scenario where a monarch rules all of Scandinavia and Great Britain would be cool tho. The United Kingdom of two United Kingdoms lmao.
Maybe your right , but scandinavia should be pretty powefull in this tl , i dont think there will be direct colonial competition , so tensions should be low in that regard , also scandinavia could possibly be more powerfull in the naval front , at least in the north atlantic , i thought that the scotts could possibly consent due to the threat of england and maybe more economical oppurtunities in the burgeoning scandinavian north atlantic empire , that due to their geographic position they could capitalise and be an important centre , but i dont know to much about british history , i mostly just tough it would be cool and different , and weaker england could be fun , your thoughts please .
I thought that too, but i thought scotland would be crazy enough lmao.
But there is literally no basis for Scotland to accept to become a lesser partner in a union. The Union of Britain was made because of such wierd coincidences that it would have been Asmr if it had not happen. I mean what are the chance of King having 6 wife for a male heir, have that male heir, that male heir dies, a Daughter Ascends the throne, go mad with religion and burn a lot of people, gets called bloody Mary, dies without a heir, another sister inherits the throne, refuses to have children and dies, and by chance her heir is just the king of England's northern neighbor who england has basis for unification since they are basically on the same island and have this ancient concept of Britain. It would be impossible to for the Union to replicate similar events, and they have no basis for unification. They are Separated by sea, have different culture and language, I don't understand how the Union could last, especially with England to South always eyeing Scotland. As for Scandinavia being stronger, I don't understand how they could compete with England on the Scotland, The Russians on the North and HRE on South, especially if Prussia still rises. Any of these opponents alone would have a positive chance of defeating Scandinavia, let alone combined. For this Scandinavia must have strong allies, and british are Good choice. No Conflicts of interest in Europe, Even in Colonization, if history of Britain remains same, we know British would focus more on India rather than America.
As you say , crazy and unlikely thing do happen , england could get involved in some stupid continental wars that could distract them , also maybe same kind of deal that protects scotland rights , so they dont feel like i lesse partner, also i dont think the union should be permanent necessarily, maybe you are right the union doesnt last and scotland goes their own way , an indepenent scotland could be cool .
Maybe scandinavia could take the shetland islands ? doesnts seem that hard , also what about ireland ? whats her status at this time ?
The king of England is also known as the Lord of Ireland but it's still mostly independent. Yes crazy things do happen, but i am just saying that competing with Russian's for Finland and Baltics, With The HRE Or Prussia, whoever is the stronger power in this timeline for Pomerania, With England for Scotland, and even taking part in the colonial race with France and Spain, does make it look bad, doesn't it?
It really does , but maybe the shetlands then , lets see what happens .
These are all very interesting ideas you guys are coming up with. However, I might be taking a bit of time away from AH.com. I've been spending too much time on here and I don't think it's been good for me (a certain section of the website in particular is bad not just for me but for most people here I'd imagine). I need to touch some grass. I promise you guys that I will eventually post another update here, it's just that I'm not nearly as knowledgeable on this era of history as I should be if I want to write a TL on it. For now, though, take care and have a happy June.
Great news, guys. I have made significant progress on the French update, and it should be out within the next week. After that will be a colonial update or two where I can implement a lot of the ideas and proposals we've discussed over the past few months.
Ooh nice! I do like this TL and the concepts it has are quite interesting.
I'm getting towards the end of the update now, but I need some suggestions as to what royal house the TTL son of Charles IX would marry. Not even a specific woman (who'd most realistically be butterflied), but just the royal house. Whittelsbach? Savoy? Habsburg? A local French family? Please leave your ideas.
Chapter 17: Upheaval In France
Union of The Three Crowns: The History of The Nordic Empire
Chapter 17: Upheaval In France
Chapter 17: Upheaval In France
France during the latter half of the 16th Century was… an interesting place. Ever since the Albigensian Crusade against the Cathar heresy of the 13th Century, France had been a pretty uniformly Catholic region, but this was about to change. The Protestant Reformation that had begun in Germany had begun to spread to France during the 1530s, growing precipitously during the middle of the 16th Century, to where by 1570 10% of the French population was Protestant. Most of the French Protestants, who came to be called the Huguenots, followed the school of thought established by Jean Calvin, who’d been born in Picardy but had come to reside in Geneva. Protestantism gained a large following particularly in the south of France, which also happened to be where Catharism was the strongest three centuries prior, as well as among the mercantile class. Protestantism even made inroads into the French nobility, with a large chunk of noblemen in the south becoming Huguenots. It even made it into the French royal family, with Queen Jeanne of Navarre converting to Protestantism. Both Francis I and Henry II pursued a policy of suppressing Protestantism during their reigns, but it was largely ineffective at stymying the spread of Protestantism. As the Huguenot population grew, tensions between them and the Catholic majority rose steadily, with incidents of sectarian violence occuring on multiple occasions. Things continued to proceed like this under the reign of Francis II, who due to his ill health and young age at the time of his ascension often had his family govern more than him, especially his mother Catherine de Medici. Many of Francis’s influences happened to be zealously anti-Protestant, so Francis’s policy towards them reflected that. In 1560, a cabal of Huguenot noblemen attempted to capture the young Francis II, but the conspiracy was discovered and thwarted, with hundreds of nobles being executed as punishment. This only furthered hostilities towards the Huguenots and rose tensions within the kingdom, which were bound to boil over at some point…
Francis II, recognizing the seriousness of the situation, called the first meeting of the Estates General in over 65 years in 1560, covering topics from finances (France’s wars in Italy left it nearly broke) to politics (France being ruled by a young, inexperienced and sickly king). When it came to religion, though, the Estates-General were unable to come to any sort of settlement on what to do with France’s religious issues, the only accomplishment of the convention being a pardon for those convicted of religious crimes within the past year. The lack of an actual solution to the religious issues plaguing France would lead to things going south in due time, with the die being cast when the Duke of Guise massacred Protestants in the town of Vassy in March of 1562. Naturally this didn’t go over too well with the Huguenots, who retaliated by capturing several prominent cities, notably Orleans and Lyon. This would officially kick off the French Wars of Religion, which would last several decades more. Battles and killings between Catholics and Huguenots across France throughout 1562 and 1563, before Catherine de Medici was able to sign an edict that would bring an end to the violence. Religious tension in France didn’t disappear with the edict, though, and religious violence reappeared a few years later. Religious violence continued throughout the late 1560s and early 1570s, whether in the form of iconoclasm, riots or outright military engagements. All the while King Francis II was mostly unable to do anything. Already infirm, Francis had a serious health scare in late 1560, and while he survived (in contrast to OTL, where he died), he became even more physically weak than before. In spite of his frailty and undropped family jewels, Francis and Mary somehow managed to have a child, a daughter named Madeleine, born in June of 1563 (ATL). However, due to French salic law, Madeleine was ineligible to become the heir to the French throne. Francis’s health would continue to decline over the following years in spite of his young age, until in December of 1567 he would come down with an illness. This illness would worsen into pneumonia in January of 1568. In spite of the best attempts to cure him, on the 6th of February in the Year of Our Lord 1568, Francis II of France would breathe his last, perishing at the age of 24. Due to his lack of a male heir, the throne would pass to Francis’ younger brother Charles, who’d be crowned King Charles IX. Now, Charles was very young as of his ascension to the throne, only being 17 years of age. He too was underprepared for the sticky situation he found himself in, as the religious conflict would continue through the late 1560s. He wed Elisabeth of Austria in 1570, creating dynastic ties between the Valois in France and the Habsburgs in Austria. He and Elisabeth would bear two children during their marriage, a daughter named Marie in October of 1572 (OTL) and a son named Francis in December of the following year (ATL). Charles would also have a son out of wedlock, also named Charles, with his mistress Marie Touchet (OTL). Marie would die in childhood and Charles was ineligible for the throne due to his illegitimacy, but not only was Francis eligible for the throne, but he also happened to survive into adulthood. Unfortunately for him, his father wouldn’t be there to raise him, as just was the case with Francis II before him, Charles IX of France would perish at a young age, passing away on the fourth of October 1574 (a few months later than IOTL). While Francis II would still have his mother and his uncle Henry (who’d act as his regent while Francis was young) to raise him, Francis grew up without his father. Now, let’s talk about part of what led Charles IX to die so young.
The early years of Charles IX’s reign saw a continuation of the French religious conflicts, with cities in Southwestern France (the region with the highest number of Protestants) becoming contested between Protestant and Catholic forces. A treaty between the crown and Protestant leaders was signed in 1570, and it looked as though France might finally be returning to some sort of stability. However, that was not to be, as two years later, one of the defining events of the French religious conflict would occur. You see, a royal wedding was to occur in Paris. The two parties that were to be hitched were Charles IX’s sister Margaret, a Catholic and Henry of Navarre, a Huguenot. It was hoped that this interreligious marriage would smooth over tensions between the two sects (and that Henry would convert to Catholicism), but things would go terribly, terribly wrong, and the religious conflicts would explode again.
The wedding itself would go off without a hitch, but a few days later merde would officially hit the fan. You see, the prominent Huguenot Gaspard de Coligny, most known for his attempts at founding colonies in North America and Brazil was in attendance, and stuck around in Paris after the wedding to meet with the king. On the 22nd of August, Coligny was shot and killed by Charles de Louviers, an elderly nobleman (IOTL the assassination failed, but Coligny was killed a few days later at the king’s orders). Word of Coligny’s assassination spread, and before you know it Huguenots across Paris were rioting. Catholics responded in kind by attacking the Huguenots, and soon Paris was up in flames. The news of the assassination, riots and street battles soon spread across France, where religious warfare would once again explode. The King, blaming the Huguenots for the rioting, began a campaign against the Huguenots. Royal troops would siege and then capture Protestant-controlled towns like La Rochelle, Sommières and Sancerre, and with all this happening many Huguenots would emigrate to Protestant countries, something that would continue for decades to come and could have ramifications in other parts of both Europe and the broader world. All the while King Charles IX would experience a precipitous drop in his mental and physical health, as despite his disdain for the Huguenots he still lamented the death of Coligny and the chaos that followed it. While he would be able to father another child with his wife, which would fortunately be a son, Charles IX would perish on 29th of January 1575, to be succeeded by his infant son Francis.
As you may recall, though, Francis was an infant, only having been born 14 months before his father’s death, so Charles’s brother Henry would act as regent for the time being. Henry had been in consideration for the Polish throne, but had declined in case his home country needed him. That would turn out to be the case, as while Henry was never officially crowned King, he would effectively assume that role for well over a decade. While a Catholic, Henry was rather pragmatic when it came to religious policy, and attempted to put an end to the religious conflict. His sympathies towards the Huguenots (which he nearly became as a child) made enemies within the French court, as did his attempts to centralize the realm (one of these being his own brother Francis, not to be confused with the soon-to-be-governing king). Henry would also look into establishing a French colonial empire, though the implementation of said ideas would have to wait until after his regency was done.
On the topic of the regency ending, by the late 1580s Francis was maturing into a young man, more and more ready to gain real power. Meanwhile, Henry was losing popularity with both the nobility and the people. Seeing this, Henry would officially hand over the reins to Francis in the Spring of 1589, which would be celebrated with a big celebration and feast in Paris. Despite not being regent anymore, Henry would remain an advisor to Francis until his death in May of 1612 (he’s not assassinated ITTL due to that taking place after the regency ends). Francis, now governing as King Francis III, would continue his regent’s policies of religious pragmatism. The early years of his reign would be marked by occasional religious conflict but also peace, albeit not a steady one. By this point France had experienced religious conflict for nearly 30 years, and Francis III wanted it to end under his watch. Thus, Francis would get to drafting a document detailing France’s religious policy. After months of work and consultation from both Catholic and Huguenot leaders, the Edict of Tours would officially be proclaimed in the fall of 1596. This edict would both maintain Catholicism’s status as the state religion of France while granting Huguenots enough liberties to secure their loyalty. Huguenots were allowed to practice their faith in designated locales, maintain their own institutions and travel freely within the country without harassment by the authorities. However, Huguenots would still have to pay the tithe to the church and obey Catholic customs regarding marriage and holidays. While Protestants weren’t thrilled with the amount of restrictions and obligations towards the Catholic Church, they were generally satisfied with the terms. Among Catholics, reactions varied from indifference to outrage, with Francis facing a notable assassination attempt in the spring of 1597 by a Catholic radical, who believed that Francis was a secret Protestant who was selling out the country to the heretics. Francis was shot in his left arm, which would be severely impacted and leave a permanent scar, but he did survive, with the assassin being arrested and executed. In other matters, Francis would continue to attempt expansion and influence in the HRE and Italy, to varying degrees of success (and in ways I don’t have time to get into now). In the colonial sphere, Francis’s reign would see the permanent establishment of the French colonial empire, with the colonies in South America I discussed in the previous update (from five months ago, I know, it’s been way too long) and the formation of the Compagnie Français D’Orient, or French Company of The Orient, made to set up French outposts in India and East Asia. The late 16th Century and early 17th Century would see French voyages to the Indian Ocean in order to find out more about the region and establish contact with the local nations and peoples, though actual trade and colonization would wait until the middle of the 17th Century. Part of that would be the French gaining interest in West Africa, both to found waystations to the east and trade with the locals, including in human beings, an unfortunate but unavoidable aspect of this time period. This would become a major part of the economy of L’Equinoctie in particular, as African slaves were used in plantation agriculture, dying at horrifying rates. As stated in previous updates, the Atlantic Slave Trade will eventually get its own update, as it would come to dominate the economy in much of the New World and have sizable impacts in Europe and Africa as well. Regardless, France was beginning to expand its reach both at home and abroad.
One more thing worth mentioning is the dynastic situation in France. Being the king of arguably Europe’s most powerful country, Francis III was definitely a marriageable bachelor. Getting a good spouse would not only ensure the continuation of the Valois line, which had nearly gone extinct, but also strengthen diplomatic ties between France and the country the spouse came from. After several candidates had been considered, Francis would ultimately marry a prominent noblewoman from the House of Lorraine, with the wedding taking place in May of 1598. Francis and his wife would have their first child, a girl named Geneviève, in February of 1600. A second girl, named Catherine, would be born in September of 1602, but she would die of illness the following February. Finally, the royal couple would have a baby boy in March of 1604, named Louis, who would become the heir to the French throne. Francis and his wife would have three more children, two of whom would survive to adulthood, thus securing the existence of the Valois dynasty into the 17th Century.
This update took way, WAY too long to put out, but hey, better late than never. I can assure you guys it will not take five months to put out the next update, as the next two will be colonial related, which is what I feel most passionate about when it comes to writing this series. I have to keep tabs on the Old World out of necessity, as butterflies would obviously make an impact there as time goes on, but I like writing about colonial stuff more. Regardless, more content will be coming out soon, possibly within this month, so keep an eye out for more UOTTC content in the next few weeks. In the meantime, though, I must bid you adieu.
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I know this post is from half a year ago, but this post is relevant again now that I'm doing a colonial update. Right now I have the Dutch establishing African trading posts in the Gold Coast (Ghana) and Madagascar, which would be more conducive to colonizing India. Meanwhile, the English with their Cape Colony will have a better route to Indonesia, much like the Dutch did IOTL (Brouwer Route). That route could also lead to an earlier English colonization of Australia, albeit in the west rather than the east, probably settled in large part by Anglo-Africans from the Cape. Thus, TTL could see the Dutch colonizing parts of India while the English/British become the premier power in the East Indies.
I'm working on an update surrounding the Dutch colonial endeavors right now (I've decided to split the colonial update in two between the Dutch and English), and I've decided to make the Dutch more proactive in settling their colony ITTL than in our own. Otherwise it'd likely eventually be swallowed up by the English. This won't involve a huge amount of settlers, but 10-15,000 in the first 30 years (many of them non-Dutch like Germans, Huguenots or Puritans) should make a difference.
Hmm that'd probably mean that the Dutch would actually be much stronger than the British ittl, and considering that the same forces that pushed the Chinese into attempting to colonise SEA should still exist ittl I could see the British and Chinese attempting to oppress the others.
I'd think that the majority of the first Dutch settlers being Germans just wanting to leave the continent for greener pastures would make sense. Considering that the French equinoctial is there I don't think there'd be a lot of Huguenots leaving for other colonies tho.
The Dutch won't be taking all of India like the British did IOTL, while I could feasibly see England/Britain gobbling up a large portion of the East Indies ITTL, so it should balance out. As for the Huguenots, where they go depends on whether the French government would have the same Catholics only policy towards settlers in their colonies that they did IOTL,
Chapter 18: Dutch Colonies Through 1650
Union of The Three Crowns: The History of The Nordic Empire
Chapter 18: Dutch Colonies Through 1650
Chapter 18: Dutch Colonies Through 1650
As the 16th Century closed and the 17th Century dawned, European exploration and expansion across the world would begin to see new players joining the established empires the Spanish, Portuguese and (to a much smaller extent than the other two) Scandinavians had made over the previous century. With so much profit and prestige that could potentially be made from colonial expansion, it was only a matter of time before new nations joined in on the fun. I’ve already talked about France’s colonial endeavors in South America in a previous update, and will get back to them in the future, but in the next two updates I’ll focus on the newly founded colonial projects of The Netherlands and England. While they got into the game later than the previously mentioned Iberians or Scandinavians, they would eventually make a big mark on the colonial stage, both in the old and new worlds. Any colonial empire (or empire in general) has to start somewhere, as does any update about said empires. Thus, let’s begin the first of these two updates, this one covering the Dutch colonies.
After the Netherlands’ independence from the Spanish in 1588, colonial expansion immediately came onto the radar of the Dutch leadership, including King Canute (or Knoet in Dutch). Canute, having seen the expansion his family over in Copenhagen had made in the colonial realm, wanted to establish colonies for his new kingdom in both hemispheres. Thus, Canute would found two trading companies, the Nederlands Oosters Compagnie (NOC), or Dutch Oriental Company to operate in Africa and Asia, and the Nederlands Amerikaan Compagnie (NAC) to do so in the Americas, giving royal funds to both of them. The NOC would then go on to send expeditions to India and Southeast Asia, hoping to learn more about the region and where to establish a Dutch presence. They’d also get to work establishing a foothold in Africa, which would be useful as a waystation to get to the orient. The company would found the first Dutch trading post in Africa, Fort Knoet, along the Gold Coast in West Africa in 1603, and would establish Fort Brabant two years later on the southeastern coast of Madagascar. Finally, in 1611, the NOC would establish their foothold in India, founding the outpost of Fort Willem at the southern end of the subcontinent.
Moving over to the Western Hemisphere, the NAC would be hard at work building a Dutch presence in the new world. The NAC’s main priority would be to gain control of various territories in and around the Caribbean Sea. While the Caribbean wasn’t yet the treasure trove it would go on to be, the Portuguese in Brazil were already showing the potential that tropical cash crops, particularly sugar, had to make boatloads of cash (pun 100% intended). So, the NAC would establish their first colony in the Caribbean in 1614, on the islands the Spanish called Guadalupe. There, they would establish their first settlement at the place where the two largest islands would nearly connect, separated only by a narrow passage. The Dutch would appropriately name that settlement De Kanaal, which I don’t think you guys should have much trouble translating into English. A settlement on the South American mainland would be set up soon thereafter, as the Dutch would seek to place a colony in between the Spanish New Granada in the west and the French Equinoctie in the east. While originally planning to forward settle the Spanish in Venezuela, they would decide to settle further east on the thus far uncolonized Guiana coast. Thus, in Nikole Hannah-Jones’ favorite year, the settlement of Nieuw Dordrecht would be founded on the Guiana coast, with more settlements in the region being established in the following decades as well. Both the Caribbean and Guiana colonies would become reliant on plantation agriculture, with cash crops being grown and harvested by African slaves, with the white population in these colonies being a small minority. However, there was one Dutch colony in the Americas that would become widely settled by Europeans, and for that we’ll have to go north.
Upon the foundation of the NAC, King Canute gave it a charter to settle the eastern coast of North America. This charter entailed building forts and outposts to establish control and influence, to trade with the natives for goods like furs, acquire resources like timber (plentiful in North America but rare in the Netherlands) and bring over settlers to farm the land. With the English beginning to settle in the south and the Kalmar Union to the north, the NAC decided to place their colony in the middle section between the Chesapeake and Cape Cod. In March of 1618, the NAC would send out an expedition to establish a colony on the North American mainland. After two and a half months traversing the North Atlantic, the expedition would reach the North American east coast, specifically the tip of a large island jutting out into the sea. After traversing west along the island for some time, they would come into large, deep harbor with multiple rivers feeding into it and numerous locations suitable for settlement. Unlike Bono three and a half centuries later, the Dutch had found what they were looking for. Several locations were considered by the party for their settlement site, but they ultimately decided on the far western part of the harbor, at the convergence of a river and one of the many channels of water found around the bay. Several names would be considered for the settlement, but they decided to adopt the native name for the area. Thus, on July 2nd, 1618, the Dutch settlement of Ampoeg would be established, the first Dutch colony on the North American mainland. A second settlement, named Knoedshaven after the now elderly king, was founded nearby in April of 1620, further solidifying Dutch control over the bay region.
The Dutch would expand their North American colony south into another large bay area, one that was getting close to the English colony around the Chesapeake. The first Dutch settlement on the bay was established in 1623 at the tip of a large cape jutting into the bay’s entrance, appropriately named Zuidkaap. The other side of the bay’s entrance was settled by the Dutch the following year, named Zwaanendael for the large population of swans in the area. That same year, the Dutch founded an outpost at the head of the bay, to be named Berenstad, a translated version of a local native name.
Heading back up north, the Dutch expanded up the Noortrivier (North River) to found a fort, which they named Fort Oranje after the House of Orange, the most prominent noble family in the country. Other settlements founded in the north prior to 1650 included Manhattoes, Terneuzen, Nieuwedam and Brugpoort. Back down south, pre-1650 settlements included Moerasdorp, Oestermond and, most notably, Nieuw Antwerp.
Now that I’ve covered the early settlement of the Dutch North American colony, I think it’s about time I talk about the demographics. With the Netherlands being a fairly prosperous country, it was difficult to get many settlers to cross the ocean to some far-off land. As a result, only a few thousand Dutch settlers went to the colony between the foundation in 1618 and 1650. However, the Dutch were not the only population to settle over there. With Europe being in the midst of its great religious conflict that I’ll cover in a future update, many people had been displaced from their homes and were now refugees. This was particularly true in Germany, where the conflict was at its most intense, with millions (mainly civilians) perishing during the long conflict (mostly from disease). With so much upheaval, a good number of Germans wanted a fresh start, and what better place to have said fresh start than across the ocean? With the Netherlands allowing any Protestant to settle in their colonies (though preferring Calvinists), several thousand Germans settled in the New Netherland colony through 1650, the largest single ethnic group in the colony. Other settlers included a decent number of French Huguenots and English Calvinists, the latter of whom founded their own settlements like Jarmuiden and Engelshaven (using their eventual Dutch names). Even with the settlement of non-Dutch groups in the colony, they’d eventually assimilate into speaking Dutch, though in some cases it took several generations. Between immigration and the growing number of settlers born in the colony, the European population of the Dutch colony numbered 22,000 in 1650, quite small but poised to grow rapidly over the coming decades. As for the colony’s political divisions, the northern and southern portion of the colonies were at this point mostly disconnected, with the north having about 2/3rds of the colonists and the south 1/3rd. These two regions would begin to be referred to as New Holland and New Flanders respectively, reflecting the geographic position of those two regions in the Netherlands. The two colonies put together began to be referred to as New Batavia, or Nieuw Betuwe in Dutch, coming from a Latin name for the Netherlands.The borders of New Batavia with the Scandinavians to the north and English to the south were still unclear and yet to be resolved, particularly in the peninsula separating the Dutch controlled Flemish (Vlaams) Bay and the English-controlled Chesapeake, but that’ll be resolved in a future update. I’ll eventually return to New Batavia, but first I’ve got some other business to cover, such as the colonies the English were setting up at the same time. That update should be out towards the end of this month or the beginning of the next, so keep your eyes peeled for that, as well as an EC/FC update I’ve been working on. Until then, however, I must say farewell.