I think I'm going to have a butterfly net for this TL up until the Thirty Years' War. Granted, the Thirty Years' War is 100 years on from the POD, meaning that the people involved would in all likelihood be butterflied, but the conditions leading to the war (religious tension and the Habsburg/Bourbon rivalry) are still there, but it's after TTL's 30YW that this world would really begin to chart its own course away from OTL. I had a similar butterfly net with EC/FC up until the Seven Years' War.
Union of The Three Crowns: The History of The Nordic Empire
- Thread starter Gabingston
- Start date
Yeah I think the general conditions would be present, but stuff like different ppl having different colonies (like the French having a colony in Brazil which would be a huge money maker) and the Kalmar Union and the Brits being in the same coalition (which means that we don't get the Denmark and Sweden interventions) means that France, Britain and the Kalmar Union fighting against the Hapsburgs, and considering that the Spanish Netherlands doesn't exist ittl I could see the north mostly falling under the protestant's hands quite early in the war especially if the Kalmar union's ruler focuses on the war.
I could see the Kalmar union strengthening itself by taking german territories and Prussia (which would be interesting) as a consequence of the Thirty Year's war for example.
PS would we see the Kalmar union taking bits of India and SEA ittl? Hmm something like taking Taiwan would be interesting, or a Chinese-European plurality would be fun. Also, would Japan unify under different circumstances or would they go as per otl?
If Knut/Knoed is King of the Netherlands, what happens to the Princes of Orange?
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- Equinoctial France will eventually be a massive source of revenue for the French crown, but I doubt that will be the case by the early-mid 17th Century. It'd likely be later on in the 17th or in the 18th Century that La Equinoctie becomes the big money maker, with all that entails.
- I imagine that TTL's 30 Years War (or 30YW for short) could very well wind up being The Habsburgs vs Everyone Else (most notably the Bourbons and Oldenburgs). I suspect that the Everyone Else side would wind up on top, but it'd be a long and grueling war (and I doubt the victory of the anti-Habsburg alliance would be total).
- The Spanish Netherlands do technically still exist, but it's basically restricted to Wallonia. I could see it going to the Dutch and/or French after the 30YW if the Habsburgs lose (as well as Franche-Comté going fully to France).
- The Kalmar Union will definitely expand into Northern Germany ITTL. The Baltic Coast of Germany had been under Danish control during part of the Middle Ages, and Sweden annexed part of Pomerania after OTL's 30YW, so I think the Kalmar Union taking the German Baltic Coast after TTL's 30YW is quite likely. They may also take the German coast along the North Sea, since they already have a foothold there with the County of Oldenburg. Between the Kalmar Union and Poland-Lithuania, the Baltic Sea would pretty much be an Oldenburg lake, at least until the Russians become strong enough to get some Baltic clay of their own.
- I'm pretty sure the Kalmar Union (or a future united Scandinavian kingdom) will have some colonies in Asia. I don't know if they'll be a major player over there, but they'll at least have a few trading posts in India and the East Indies. As for Japan, I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
I imagine the Orange family would be a prominent noble house within the Dutch kingdom, potentially marrying into the Dutch Oldenburgs. House of Oldenburg-Orange, anyone?
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Yeah that makes sense, and I think at most we'd get something like Bohemia be led under a protestant prince.
Considering other northern states like Brandenburg would get fucked over by the Kalmar Union taking over their lands I defo see them being less happy about the Scandinavians but having to work with them anyways because France is much worse.
Hmm that makes sense considering that it's basically everyone Vs the Hapsburgs this time round. I could see the route to wallonia being cut off much more easily than otl, especially when the Scandinavians come in to play.
I wonder would the Dutch be allies with the Scandinavians after the war. They'd need each other so the French don't take over Germany.
I defo think Kalmar taking over German lands and having them learn 'scandinavian' and not identifying themselves with the rest of Germany would be interesting.
I think a Scandinavian colony in India is defo something that is very plausible, considering Denmark colonised around there a bit, and if they had more governmental and commercial interests pitch in I could see them holding some ports or at least sri Lanka/southern India.
On Japan ofc I want a colonising Japan but there's a lot of options regarding them.
A couple of thoughts regarding the next update:
- I'm gonna have the French Wars of Religion stay similar to OTL. There may be small differences here and there, but the general outline should be the same as IOTL.
- As one of the differences, I'm gonna have Francis II survive his illness in 1560 and have a daughter with his wife Mary, Queen of Scots, but still die at sometime before 1570. Due to the lack of a male heir, the throne will pass on to his brother Charles IX, just later than IOTL. Francis and Mary's daughter will likely marry into a major royal family, potentially the successors to the Valois if the male line still goes extinct.
- Speaking of the Valois dynasty, I have a hard time seeing them keeping Scotland. Reportedly Scotland was going to come under the control of the French crown if Francis and Mary didn't have children, but Scotland rebelled against the French before that could happen. Even if Scotland doesn't rebel, I don't know what its status would be with Francis and Mary having a surviving daughter. I might just have Scotland follow the same path as IOTL, Protestantism included.
- One interesting potential butterfly of Francis II surviving longer and having a daughter is Mary, Queen of Scots not remarrying and giving birth to James VI of England/I of Scotland, which could have interesting butterflies in the British Isles and eventually further. I'll have to look more into that, though, as I don't know a lot (or really anything) about that era of British history.
If I Ever Get Banned
I know I've stated this before, but I'm restating it so it can be threadmarked. If I am ever banned from this website, I will be continuing both this and my other TL on alternate-timelines.com. It is the only AH.com alternative that I am aware of, and I'm confident that I wouldn't be the only AH.com refugee on the website. This poster is copy/pasted from my other TL's thread.
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Any particular reason you’re afraid of getting banned?I know I've stated this before, but I'm restating it so it can be threadmarked. If I am ever banned from this website, I will be continuing both this and my other TL on alternate-timelines.com. It is the only AH.com alternative that I am aware of, and I'm confident that I wouldn't be the only AH.com refugee on the website. This poster is copy/pasted from my other TL's thread.
Home | alternate-timelines.com
Visit our forum at: alternate-timelines.com
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I'm getting back to work on the France update, and I've got a few more thoughts/ideas to go over:
First, Francis II dies without a male heir, albeit later than IOTL and with a female heir. This passes the throne on to his younger brother Charles, who was king IOTL, but also died at a young age. IOTL he had two children, a legitimate female heir and illegitimate male one. This shows that he did have the capability to sire offspring, and if given enough time could potentially father a legitimate male heir. His decline in health was in part caused by the stress he endured after St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, a slaughter of Protestants in Paris after a royal wedding and death of Gaspard de Coligny, who many of you may know for his attempts at colonization in Brazil and the American South. This could've easily been averted or butterflied ITTL, which would not only change the fate of the French religious conflict but also could lengthen Charles' life long enough to have a male heir with his wife. The massacre not occurring would also be one of the first major butterflies outside of Scandinavia ITTL, giving this TL more of a separation from our own at this point in time. Thus, I'll give you guys two polls, one of if Charles IX has a surviving male heir and the other on whether the massacre still occurs.
Male Heir Poll: https://strawpoll.com/polls/05ZdWVYjEg6
Massacre Poll: https://strawpoll.com/polls/BJnX863Eknv
First, Francis II dies without a male heir, albeit later than IOTL and with a female heir. This passes the throne on to his younger brother Charles, who was king IOTL, but also died at a young age. IOTL he had two children, a legitimate female heir and illegitimate male one. This shows that he did have the capability to sire offspring, and if given enough time could potentially father a legitimate male heir. His decline in health was in part caused by the stress he endured after St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, a slaughter of Protestants in Paris after a royal wedding and death of Gaspard de Coligny, who many of you may know for his attempts at colonization in Brazil and the American South. This could've easily been averted or butterflied ITTL, which would not only change the fate of the French religious conflict but also could lengthen Charles' life long enough to have a male heir with his wife. The massacre not occurring would also be one of the first major butterflies outside of Scandinavia ITTL, giving this TL more of a separation from our own at this point in time. Thus, I'll give you guys two polls, one of if Charles IX has a surviving male heir and the other on whether the massacre still occurs.
Male Heir Poll: https://strawpoll.com/polls/05ZdWVYjEg6
Massacre Poll: https://strawpoll.com/polls/BJnX863Eknv
Here's a map I made detailing how I think the colonial empires of TTL could look territorially:
These are only territories I have a good idea on. For example, I've left the smaller Caribbean islands blank, as I have no idea how that'll pan out, as is the case with the Mississippi basin. I also don't have European colonies in Asia and Oceania or smaller trading posts in Africa marked, as that is something I haven't figured out. Nor have I figured out whether Scotland will still wind up united with England or if it'll stay independent. If it's independent, then that would be another colonial power ITTL, albeit likely the smallest. Please leave your thoughts and ideas. I've resumed work on the French update, and I hope to have it out in the near future.
These are only territories I have a good idea on. For example, I've left the smaller Caribbean islands blank, as I have no idea how that'll pan out, as is the case with the Mississippi basin. I also don't have European colonies in Asia and Oceania or smaller trading posts in Africa marked, as that is something I haven't figured out. Nor have I figured out whether Scotland will still wind up united with England or if it'll stay independent. If it's independent, then that would be another colonial power ITTL, albeit likely the smallest. Please leave your thoughts and ideas. I've resumed work on the French update, and I hope to have it out in the near future.
I like the map, the English and Dutch colonies in the New World are interesting, lots of competition. As for England and Scotland, I'd say let them unite, the Scottish will always be overshadowed by England. The only way for any sort of superiority is Scotland gaining the crown of England or England going through serious civil strife. The Nordic Kingdom is looking good, can't wait to see more exploration of Vinland (is that the name?). I like what France has, hope all of Brazil is under French control.
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Tbf I think a British-Scandinavian alliance against the Dutch would be a possibility, considering that the two states' interests don't clash that much. Considering the Brits are getting South Africa I think them getting bits of SEA would make sense too, alongside a few other powers like the Dutch and other powers like the Spanish and the Scandinavians.
PS any Scottish monarch that takes over the English throne will just become English, as shown by the Stuarts, as England has too much pull compared to Scotland. The only way Scotland would have substantial colonies to either be an ally of England with England helping them when rivals like France and the Netherlands come in or if England breaks down.
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or maybe Scotland enters a Personal Union with Scandinavia, that would be nice
That would be awsome , the developement of the sotish language should be fascinating.
The truth is that a Scandinavian-Scottish union would be excellent, with the colonies it would give them control of the north, it could be called the future empire of the North Sea or something like that
tbf something like that being called the Empire of the North Seas would be fun, especially if they can do it without making the Brits feel that they're encroaching on 'their territory'.
Honestly, if a Scottish-Scandinavian personal union occurred, they could be England's main rival in the North Sea region along with the Netherlands.