Union between the United Provinces and Portugal

I know this is very hard, that's why I think it's interesting. In the the XVII century the United Provinces and Portugal had common goals: Independence from the Habsburgs and securing territory in Brazil, India/Indonesia and Africa.
Instead of fighting with each other, how could they co-operate, get closer and eventually unite?
 
I know this is very hard, that's why I think it's interesting. In the the XVII century the United Provinces and Portugal had common goals: Independence from the Habsburgs and securing territory in Brazil, India/Indonesia and Africa.
Instead of fighting with each other, how could they co-operate, get closer and eventually unite?

Marriage would be logical, but religion would be a problem

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Agreed. I think the religious issue essentially scuppers the chances of this happening.

Also, there is the thing that countries didn't form Unions in this period - or most periods - except through inheritance. And with the United Provinces unfavourable to having a single ruler, or even Stadtholders at all at times, and with the religious thing, it makes this very hard to do.
 
Agreed. I think the religious issue essentially scuppers the chances of this happening.

Also, there is the thing that countries didn't form Unions in this period - or most periods - except through inheritance. And with the United Provinces unfavourable to having a single ruler, or even Stadtholders at all at times, and with the religious thing, it makes this very hard to do.

Maybe if Portugal would become a republic too, which would be cool even if very unlikely.
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
Thing is, for the Republic to agree you need Amsterdam to want it. Amsterdam had much much more to gain in war with the Portoguese then a union.
 
Maybe if Portugal would become a republic too, which would be cool even if very unlikely.

Conversely, I'd say that that would make it less likely. There seems to be a prevailing idea among some people that for all time, states with ideas in common preferred to form federations for mutual gain. I can't think of a single time that happened. Really, the only time unions happened was when monarchs inherited thrones which technically forced a union. OK, so during the Commonwealth period there was a brief move to have the Netherlands join the Commonwealth, but this was nothing more than a political ploy. The Dutch citizens were heartily against the move - as was England - and the entire move was done only by representatives of Holland (not the whole Netherlands) in an attempt to dangle a golden goose in front of Cromwell to make him more pliable. Modern evidence seems to suggest that those responsible had no intention of going through with the deal anyway, and Cromwell rejected the offer out of hand.

Nationalism hadn't formed in this era, but there was still a prevailing sense of a country's existence. The Dutch, to use this example, knew they were different from the Portuguese, and religion is only one factor. They had different economic styles, their empires were in trade competition, they had different national values, and really aside from the military aspect of fighting the Spaniards, there would be no advantage to the two countries being united. Any military cooperation could - and was - handled by simple alliances. Of course, there is also the point that in this era, the Netherlands and England were usually at each others throats, and the Portuguese had a longstanding military alliance with England (dating from 1345 I believe, and presently the world's oldest military alliance) and this alliance surprisingly was taken very seriously for centuries. The English did help the Portuguese by sending troops to Portugal on several occasions. While I think the Dutch also aided Portugal OTL, I think any move to become closer diplomatically would have invoked the wrath of England, which would certainly put strain on the deal.
 

Philip

Donor
Conversely, I'd say that that would make it less likely. There seems to be a prevailing idea among some people that for all time, states with ideas in common preferred to form federations for mutual gain. I can't think of a single time that happened....

I would agree with this. An alliance certainly seems plausible, but not union.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
United Provinces was supposed to be a republic (even though the House Oranien quite disagreed), so I can't see union through marriage happen, perhaps if the Dutch for some weird reason were able to invade Portugal.

Religion would be a HUGE issue.
 
So, forgeting the union issue, how could an alliance be reached. How could the problems with the disputes over the same terriories be solved so an alliance was reached?

And that whole thing about England helping Portugal thanks to the Treaty of Windsor, was only good in 1385. When they helped Portugal during the Napoleonic Invasions, they helped under such treaty, and occupied the country instead of the French. That so called friendship led to situations such as the Treaty of Methuen or the Ultimatum. Of course they were being samart in taking advantage, but the point is that, they helped only becuase there was an advantage. Friendship among nations is many times that: advantages, take them out, and friends disappear.
 
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