I think this would be very likely, most multi-party systems result in this. Personally I think it is a healthier system than the polarized bi-party
Union and Liberty: An American TL
- Thread starter wilcoxchar
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I think this would be very likely, most multi-party systems result in this. Personally I think it is a healthier system than the polarized bi-party
I'm thinking of having the parties settle on a sort of regional competition with a 3-choose-2 system, at least for some time. The basis would be that in the Northeast the Democrats and Progressives are the major players, in the South the Democrats and Republicans are the major players, and in the West the Progressives and Republicans are the major players. I'm not sure how stable such a system would be though.
I don't think the US is going to annex Newfoundland unless it annexes some more parts of Canada.Truth is, I'd like to see it either become its own country, or sold to Britain or one of the other colonial powers.
Wilcoxchar, have you ever considered possibly annexing Newfoundland at one point? It makes so much more sense than the U.S. keeping any territory in Africa.
On the Congo, I think I may have been too quick in making it a territory. It will probably end up with some status like Puerto Rico or the Philippines were in OTL.Hmmm, I haven't really thought about parties forming at the local and state level, but I could see it possibly happening in a few cases.
Hey i don't mean to hate, but can I just get a link to the New England Football League? And if its soccer or Rugby, forget it.
How do you figure that?
American Football. Played by Americans and barely anyone else, where they aren't even allowed foot-to-ball contact.
Football, where the aim of the game is to hit the ball with your foot and it's played by every country in the world.
Your logic suggests that something played by solely one country that contradicts its very name is more real than something played by the whole world, the playing of which is described aptly by its name.
I agree. I didn't say that because of bias (I don't get either sport), but because the latter is more aptly described by the name.
Winston Smith
Banned
A quick question: are civil rights for non-whites further along or equal to OTL at this point?
This seems to make sense. Though I think in the case of the Northeast and South should be the other way around seeing how the Progressives have some Souther Populist tendencies so far. So the South would be Progressive/Democrat, the Northeast would be Democrat/Republican, and the West would be Republican/Progressive.
Interestingly enough this would likely make Cuba, Missouri (which will likely have a very urban east due to the Confluence Megalopolis), perhaps Illinois (or other west to east border states) the swing states of TTL.
I don't think the US is going to annex Newfoundland unless it annexes some more parts of Canada.
With how bad things are for Canada, and how anti-anglo most of its increasingly Irish population, this might be a real possibility. I vote for the US annexing Hudson (or splitting it with Russia), Deseret, and Newfoundland, but keep Canada (both English and French parts) and Acadia as independent satellites.
And keep Cali independent!
Wellif you already have a three party system I can't see why smaller parties can't survive and perhaps at times make some influential coalitions. Some local parties that I can think of would be:
an Oregon Independence Party, since the Oregon states are somewhat more isolated from the rest of the country they likely have a more unique identity (that would have its roots in the Oregon War and the Silver Depression).
An Ibero Party, or Centrist Catholic Party like in some places Europe. Probably wouldn't have much support but it would be there.
A Nativist Party (more immigrants means there is likely more opposition to them).
A Socialist Part, (cause this is an ALT US so it need one). And other minor minor ones like a Libertarian, Green, etc.
Most of these might just be popping up now and then. They will likely never get more than a couple or so electoral votes (if that) but some coalitions between them can become influential and get some legislation or proposals passed.
Probably equal or slightly better than OTL. I haven't done much thinking about it yet.
I thought about putting the Progressive/Democrat dominance in the South, but with Teddy becoming a dominant figure in the Progressive Party and partially molding its policies I think they'll have more traction in the northeast than the South. The Old Northwest will probably be a huge battleground between all the parties.
As an American it is Real Football. I refuse to call Soccer football.
As an American it is American football. Just as there is Canadian football, Australian football, and Association football.
It's even worse, though, since the team that wins the Super Bowl, the American football championship, is invariably described as the "World Champion ..."!!!!
I love my Saints, and it was a truly uplifting moment when they won 2 yrs ago, but it made my skin craw at the sheer level of American asininity and insularity that allowed them to be called the "WORLD CHAMPION" Saints for a year.I'll be well pleased if TTL's Americans aren't quite so parochial in their outlook.
Part Eighty-Nine: South of the Border
Got another update done!
Part Eighty-Nine: South of the Border
Mesoamerican Business:
The United States has long had interests in Ibero-America. The purchase of Cuba and early filibusters like William Walker represented the majority of American involvement in the Caribbean prior to the National War. However, later in the century, the US started seeking greater economic involvement and trade relations with Ibero-American countries. Of particular interest was the Mesoamerican Union. Many American corporations had set up plantations in Mesoamerica to cheaply bring goods like coffee, sugar, and rubber into the United States. After the formation of the Mesoamerican Union, American interests in the region grew as its first leader, Porfirio Diaz, was very friendly to American business.
During the presidencies of Grover Cleveland and Levi Morton, the United States established many treaties with Mesoamerica under Porfirio Diaz that guaranteed and greatly strengthened American businesses' operations in the country. In 1892, the United States and Mesoamerica entered an agreement greatly reducing the tariffs for goods produced in Mesoamerica and imported into the United States. Morton furthered the connections between Mesoamerica and the United States in 1897 when he signed a treaty that established a naval base on the island of Cozumel and authorized a railroad to be constructed by American companies across the Isthmus of Tehuantepec. Diaz also enacted domestic policies to attract American businesses, signing laws creating lax regulations and granting American companies better treatment with regard to labor and government projects.
The operations by American companies and their support by the United States government created vocal opposition in both the United States and in Mesoamerica. In the United States, socialist activists decried the conditions that they said the United States was enabling in Mesoamerica. Isolationists and anti-imperialists claimed the treaties were a sign of nascent American colonialism and that the United States was becoming no better than the British Empire. Interestingly, there was also opposition from Cuban and Floridan sugar planters, who feared the loss of profits to cheaper imported sugar. In Mesoamerica, the Diaz regime escalated class tensions and lent support to a growing agrarian and labor movement. After the election of the liberal Justo Rufino Barrios, the government attempted to negate some of the laws passed by Diaz, but in 1903 a coup against Barrios returned Diaz to the presidency.
Shortly after the coup, a rebellion was launched in Nicaragua led by Jose Santos Zelaya[1]. The rebellion was only partially due to opposition to Diaz' regime. It was also fueled by the perceived dominance of the western regions of Mesoamerica in the union. The states of Oaxaca, Yucatan, and Guatemala dominated the federation in terms of population, and most of the executive branch of the Diaz and Barrios governments had been from those states. Many Nicaraguans felt neglected in the federation, and were especially concerned that the government had refused to press the Nicaraguan claim to the strip of land taken by Costa Rica earlier in the century. The Zelaya rebellion gained control over Leon and Granada for a few months, but by the end of 1903 it had been crushed by the government.
The First Mexican War:
The most prominent event during Morton's term was the American intervention in the First Mexican War. The war began in 1896 when the government of Chihuahua rebelled against the government of Rio Bravo. As a recently incorporated and sparsely populated province, Chihuahua was neglected by the Republic of Rio Bravo and not given an equal voice in the legislature as Coahuila, Nuevo Leon, and Tamaulipas were. The Chihuahuan rebels, led by Ramiro Salazar[2], gained support from the governments of Durango and Granidalgo, who each claimed land from Rio Bravo. By the spring of 1897, Salazar's forces had captured the city of Chihuahua and much of the land surrounding it.
At this time, Durango and Granidalgo, who had singed an alliance, invaded the Republic of Rio Bravo. Granidalgo defeated a Riobravense army at the battle of Tampico and occupied the city in mid-May. Durango moved its army up the coast to defend its claimed territory from any overzealous Chihuahuans. In June, the American filibuster Jack Garner[3] crossed into Riobravense territory and raided the town of Col[FONT="]ó[/FONT]n in the far north of Chihuahua[4]. The Chihuahuan guerrillas attempted to capture Garner, but before they reached Col[FONT="]ó[/FONT]n he had fled back across the Rio Bravo into United States territory. In late June, the Chihuahuans demanded that Garner be extradited to Chihuahua to receive punishment. Morton refused to extradite Garner and after outcries by the news media and Congress claimed that the violence in Rio Bravo was destabilizing the region. From then, Morton authorized military intervention in the first modern major involvement of United States forces in Ibero-America.
After Morton's authorization, United States forces stationed in western Tejas crossed the Rio Bravo and occupied several border towns including Piedras Negras and Guadalupe[5]. In September after further movements by American troops, all the parties involved agreed to American arbitration in a resolution to the war. In the negotiations for the 1897 Washington Treaty, Morton and Secretary of State Elihu Root worked to dismantle British influence in the region by granting large concessions to the parties fighting against Rio Bravo. Most of the province of Chihuahua became independent under American protection, while the far north was incorporated into the Unorganized Territory in the Trans-Pecos and the Pacific coast was ceded to Durango. Granidalgo gained the port of Tampico and other small concessions along the Rio Tamesí. Despite protests from the British and Riobravense governments of unfair treatments to Rio Bravo in the negotiations, France, Germany, and other great powers endorsed the treaty as needed to promote stability in the Mexican states. The intervention of the United States, however, did not stabilize the area as more countries in the region began contemplating territorial expansion of their own.
[1] OTL President of Nicaragua.
[2] Ramiro Salazar is fictional. I would've used Pancho Villa but he's too young at this point.
[3] Yes, that's Cactus Jack. And yes, he was that old.
[4] Columbus, New Mexico.
[5] OTL Manuel Ojinaga, Mexico. Guadalupe is a nearby municipality.
Part Eighty-Nine: South of the Border
Mesoamerican Business:
The United States has long had interests in Ibero-America. The purchase of Cuba and early filibusters like William Walker represented the majority of American involvement in the Caribbean prior to the National War. However, later in the century, the US started seeking greater economic involvement and trade relations with Ibero-American countries. Of particular interest was the Mesoamerican Union. Many American corporations had set up plantations in Mesoamerica to cheaply bring goods like coffee, sugar, and rubber into the United States. After the formation of the Mesoamerican Union, American interests in the region grew as its first leader, Porfirio Diaz, was very friendly to American business.
During the presidencies of Grover Cleveland and Levi Morton, the United States established many treaties with Mesoamerica under Porfirio Diaz that guaranteed and greatly strengthened American businesses' operations in the country. In 1892, the United States and Mesoamerica entered an agreement greatly reducing the tariffs for goods produced in Mesoamerica and imported into the United States. Morton furthered the connections between Mesoamerica and the United States in 1897 when he signed a treaty that established a naval base on the island of Cozumel and authorized a railroad to be constructed by American companies across the Isthmus of Tehuantepec. Diaz also enacted domestic policies to attract American businesses, signing laws creating lax regulations and granting American companies better treatment with regard to labor and government projects.
The operations by American companies and their support by the United States government created vocal opposition in both the United States and in Mesoamerica. In the United States, socialist activists decried the conditions that they said the United States was enabling in Mesoamerica. Isolationists and anti-imperialists claimed the treaties were a sign of nascent American colonialism and that the United States was becoming no better than the British Empire. Interestingly, there was also opposition from Cuban and Floridan sugar planters, who feared the loss of profits to cheaper imported sugar. In Mesoamerica, the Diaz regime escalated class tensions and lent support to a growing agrarian and labor movement. After the election of the liberal Justo Rufino Barrios, the government attempted to negate some of the laws passed by Diaz, but in 1903 a coup against Barrios returned Diaz to the presidency.
Shortly after the coup, a rebellion was launched in Nicaragua led by Jose Santos Zelaya[1]. The rebellion was only partially due to opposition to Diaz' regime. It was also fueled by the perceived dominance of the western regions of Mesoamerica in the union. The states of Oaxaca, Yucatan, and Guatemala dominated the federation in terms of population, and most of the executive branch of the Diaz and Barrios governments had been from those states. Many Nicaraguans felt neglected in the federation, and were especially concerned that the government had refused to press the Nicaraguan claim to the strip of land taken by Costa Rica earlier in the century. The Zelaya rebellion gained control over Leon and Granada for a few months, but by the end of 1903 it had been crushed by the government.
The First Mexican War:
The most prominent event during Morton's term was the American intervention in the First Mexican War. The war began in 1896 when the government of Chihuahua rebelled against the government of Rio Bravo. As a recently incorporated and sparsely populated province, Chihuahua was neglected by the Republic of Rio Bravo and not given an equal voice in the legislature as Coahuila, Nuevo Leon, and Tamaulipas were. The Chihuahuan rebels, led by Ramiro Salazar[2], gained support from the governments of Durango and Granidalgo, who each claimed land from Rio Bravo. By the spring of 1897, Salazar's forces had captured the city of Chihuahua and much of the land surrounding it.
At this time, Durango and Granidalgo, who had singed an alliance, invaded the Republic of Rio Bravo. Granidalgo defeated a Riobravense army at the battle of Tampico and occupied the city in mid-May. Durango moved its army up the coast to defend its claimed territory from any overzealous Chihuahuans. In June, the American filibuster Jack Garner[3] crossed into Riobravense territory and raided the town of Col[FONT="]ó[/FONT]n in the far north of Chihuahua[4]. The Chihuahuan guerrillas attempted to capture Garner, but before they reached Col[FONT="]ó[/FONT]n he had fled back across the Rio Bravo into United States territory. In late June, the Chihuahuans demanded that Garner be extradited to Chihuahua to receive punishment. Morton refused to extradite Garner and after outcries by the news media and Congress claimed that the violence in Rio Bravo was destabilizing the region. From then, Morton authorized military intervention in the first modern major involvement of United States forces in Ibero-America.
After Morton's authorization, United States forces stationed in western Tejas crossed the Rio Bravo and occupied several border towns including Piedras Negras and Guadalupe[5]. In September after further movements by American troops, all the parties involved agreed to American arbitration in a resolution to the war. In the negotiations for the 1897 Washington Treaty, Morton and Secretary of State Elihu Root worked to dismantle British influence in the region by granting large concessions to the parties fighting against Rio Bravo. Most of the province of Chihuahua became independent under American protection, while the far north was incorporated into the Unorganized Territory in the Trans-Pecos and the Pacific coast was ceded to Durango. Granidalgo gained the port of Tampico and other small concessions along the Rio Tamesí. Despite protests from the British and Riobravense governments of unfair treatments to Rio Bravo in the negotiations, France, Germany, and other great powers endorsed the treaty as needed to promote stability in the Mexican states. The intervention of the United States, however, did not stabilize the area as more countries in the region began contemplating territorial expansion of their own.
[1] OTL President of Nicaragua.
[2] Ramiro Salazar is fictional. I would've used Pancho Villa but he's too young at this point.
[3] Yes, that's Cactus Jack. And yes, he was that old.
[4] Columbus, New Mexico.
[5] OTL Manuel Ojinaga, Mexico. Guadalupe is a nearby municipality.
Wow.
That was intense.
It is unfortunate Rio Bravo had to suffer such fate. But I guess this means the Scramble for Mexico has begun. And if the Mexican states don't want to be swallowed up by European powers, they better get their act together and start cooperating. (Maybe Villa can have a hand at this, uniting Durango, Zacatecas, and Granidalgo. Or rather having the first conquer the latter two. After this war Durgano is likely going through some nationalistic boost).
A map would be helpful. Keep up the good work.
That was intense.
It is unfortunate Rio Bravo had to suffer such fate. But I guess this means the Scramble for Mexico has begun. And if the Mexican states don't want to be swallowed up by European powers, they better get their act together and start cooperating. (Maybe Villa can have a hand at this, uniting Durango, Zacatecas, and Granidalgo. Or rather having the first conquer the latter two. After this war Durgano is likely going through some nationalistic boost).
A map would be helpful. Keep up the good work.
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That would be great. I just have to figure out exactly where the northern border of Chihuahua is now.
Thanks. Mexico will probably go through a period similar to the Balkan Wars now that the minor states have had a taste of nationalist expansion. The main great powers that might intervene would be the US and Britain, but as the Great War looms how much they're willing to intervene could change.
That would be great. I just have to figure out exactly where the northern border of Chihuahua is now.
I'm making a proposal now. It might be too big, though (almost the northern half of the state is annexed).