Union and Liberty: An American TL

[jycee]

Alternate extinctions: For example, perhaps you could have the Tasmanian Tiger survive ITTL while the Tasmanian Devil becomes extinct?

Unification of the Colonies: Now this is probably going to be the most important part of your Australian update. Since your articles have so far been written in the form of an American textbook, they might want to make a special note of this. Let's say, that instead of just the mainland, and Tasmania, TTL's Australia also includes New Zealand, and some Pacific territories. Honestly, I would think an American textbook ITTL would want to explain why Australia managed to avoid becoming multiple nations (such as New Zealand, Tasmania, West Australia, etc.) in the way British North America did.

Of course, the above's my two cents. I'll be fine (and probably love) whatever you do.

I love these two ideas quite a bit. The extinction of the Tasmanian tiger was a sad sad outcome of OTL. Cause they are awesome!

I also like the reversal of British North America not unifying into one dominion. But Australia, Tasmania and NZ all unifying into one you could also throw a few Pacific Island in there.

 

[Utgard96]

Unification of the Colonies: Now this is probably going to be the most important part of your Australian update. Since your articles have so far been written in the form of an American textbook, they might want to make a special note of this. Let's say, that instead of just the mainland, and Tasmania, TTL's Australia also includes New Zealand, and some Pacific territories. Honestly, I would think an American textbook ITTL would want to explain why Australia managed to avoid becoming multiple nations (such as New Zealand, Tasmania, West Australia, etc.) in the way British North America did.

I like this. That way, we'll have a splintered BNA, but a united Australasia.

 

[wilcoxchar]

Thanks for the info and suggestions, EoNZ and Venusian. I like the idea of Australia and New Zealand staying one country, and I could potentially see Australasia even becoming a republic in the early 20th century with the amount of Irish immigration. I'll probably get an update on the region done sometime soon, though I'm not sure when.

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

TTL's Australia also includes New Zealand, and some Pacific territories. Honestly, I would think an American textbook ITTL would want to explain why Australia managed to avoid becoming multiple nations (such as New Zealand, Tasmania, West Australia, etc.) in the way British North America did.

Of course, the above's my two cents. I'll be fine (and probably love) whatever you do.

I love these two ideas quite a bit. The extinction of the Tasmanian tiger was a sad sad outcome of OTL. Cause they are awesome!

I also like the reversal of British North America not unifying into one dominion. But Australia, Tasmania and NZ all unifying into one you could also throw a few Pacific Island in there.

Thanks for the info and suggestions, EoNZ and Venusian. I like the idea of Australia and New Zealand staying one country,

Okay, so that's not really a possibility unless you drastically change the ability of colonies to communicate. The whole problem with this happening in OTL was distance. New Zealand was only made its own colony (separate from NSW) because it was near impossible for the governor of NSW to effectively govern NZ. They couldn't police it, nor organise it. Mail went from Australia, to London, then to New Zealand.

The closest NZ and Aussie can become would be a customs union on par with OTL's EU. Of course, if you swindle around politics in the late 19th/early 20th centuries the two colonies may federate later.

 

[CaliBoy1990]

Well, since your update would probably be a general overview of 19th century Australia/New Zealand, there's a few possibilities you could write about.

Based on your map above, my Central Australia/New England idea shouldn't be too ASB. Of course, if you want to add more variety to the state borders, you could play with Victoria for some. For starters, you could have Victoria claim the Murrumbidgee River instead of the Murray River as it's border with NSW. I could also imagine Victoria trying to claim the area of OTL South Australia South & East of the Murray River. Perhaps it could even be the Australia equivalent of the Toledo War?

As for an Alternate Capital, I think the location of Wentworth, New South Wales would be a lovely spot.

Now for some other ideas you might want to cover.

Immigration: This one is definitely going to be an important topic. Perhaps comment on the similarities and differences between Australin & American/BNA immigration?

The Australian Gold Rushes

Alternate extinctions: For example, perhaps you could have the Tasmanian Tiger survive ITTL while the Tasmanian Devil becomes extinct?

Unification of the Colonies: Now this is probably going to be the most important part of your Australian update. Since your articles have so far been written in the form of an American textbook, they might want to make a special note of this. Let's say, that instead of just the mainland, and Tasmania, TTL's Australia also includes New Zealand, and some Pacific territories. Honestly, I would think an American textbook ITTL would want to explain why Australia managed to avoid becoming multiple nations (such as New Zealand, Tasmania, West Australia, etc.) in the way British North America did.

Of course, the above's my two cents. I'll be fine (and probably love) whatever you do.

IMHO, I too, think that Wentworth makes a lovely spot. But I don't think New England is the best name for Central Australia, mainly due to the fact that there is a part of the U.S. that is commonly known by this same name........how about something like New Ireland instead? Why not name it after a famed statesman, explorer, or some other personality Australians look up to? Or why not do a twist and give the region a native name?

And why hasn't BNA{this does include Manitoba, right?} become independent yet? IMHO, if it isn't going to become part of Canada, it should just go to America if it's not going to be it's own nation.

 

[Venusian Si]

I also like the reversal of British North America not unifying into one dominion. But Australia, Tasmania and NZ all unifying into one you could also throw a few Pacific Island in there.

I like this. That way, we'll have a splintered BNA, but a united Australasia.

Haha, thanks! I'm glad you two approve.

Thanks for the info and suggestions, EoNZ and Venusian. I like the idea of Australia and New Zealand staying one country, and I could potentially see Australasia even becoming a republic in the early 20th century with the amount of Irish immigration. I'll probably get an update on the region done sometime soon, though I'm not sure when.

After some additional research, I also found out that Fiji was also part of the original plan to federate the Australian colonies, and apparently showed more enthusiasm for the project than New South Wales on a couple of occasions, so there's an 8th possible Australasian state. In addition, I think great candidate for statehood would be the Solomon Islands. Already, its OTL population is as big as Tasmania's, and if you include nearby islands such as New Britain, New Ireland, etc., its population would be double Tasmania's. Also, perhaps we could have the state of Victoria called Alexandrina instead?

In any case, a republic huh? A United States of Australasia/Republic of Oceania would be cute. Still, I'm guessing any move towards a republic will probably be a result of Britain losing the Great War. Even though TTL's Australia will be probably be more anti-American than OTL, it will still probably be one of the most pro-American regions of the Empire due to the similarities seen between both countries. So whenever Australia does revolt, I'm guessing it will definitely have American support, but I don't see it happening any time before the Great War. Or maybe American intrigue could help trigger a revolt during the Great War, and further distract Great Britain from properly defending itself from its enemies? Many interesting possibilities to say the least…

Okay, so that's not really a possibility unless you drastically change the ability of colonies to communicate.

I don't think that necessarily has to be true. After all, Decades of Darkness does a lovely job of making a united Australia/New Zealand seem plausible. On the other hand, it had a couple of extra decades of butterflies to work with, but U&L still has a period of about 6 decades between the POD and the first major attempt in OTL to federate the Australian Colonies. Thus, butterflies could help fight the problems facing a united Australia and New Zealand.

Unfortunately though, a united Australia and New Zealand can be one of the most awful Alternate History clichés when written by amateurs. Fortunately for us though, Wilcox has certainly proved he can write a plausible alternate history, and he could certainly make a united ANZ work as long as he addresses the hurdles that happened in OTL.

The whole problem with this happening in OTL was distance. New Zealand was only made its own colony (separate from NSW) because it was near impossible for the governor of NSW to effectively govern NZ. They couldn't police it, nor organise it. Mail went from Australia, to London, then to New Zealand.

Of course, all of that was also responsible for why Western Australia, and (to a lesser extent I guess) the other Australian states became separate colonies instead of remaining under the rule of an uber-New South Wales. Communication/distance will obviously be the biggest “administrative” problem facing New Zealand and Australia uniting, but I don’t think it’s the fundamental reason that New Zealand never had nowhere near the same amount of interest as the other colonies did in joining Australia.

For example, let’s compare New Zealand with Hawaii. Hawaii itself is even further and more geographically isolated from America than New Zealand is from Australia, yet communication/distance issues didn’t stop Hawaii from becoming an American state in 1959. Heck, the main reason why Hawaii didn’t become a state decades ahead of OTL was racism towards the non-white inhabitants. As mentioned before, I don’t believe that it was communication/distance problem that ultimately prevented Australia and New Zealand from uniting in OTL.

Based on what I’ve read, factors such as Economics, Defense, Resource Management, etc. all played an important role in encouraging federation among the Australian colonies, but the driving force for a united Australia seemed to be the development of a national Australian identity on the mainland and in Tasmania.

New Zealand, naturally, never supported the development of an Australian national identity within its territory since it didn’t have nearly the number of connections to the other Australian colonies had with each other. While New Zealand and Australia’s cultures obviously have parallels in terms of culture, it’s more due to the fact that people from the British Isles and Europe were immigrating to the two countries at the same time instead of immigration and cultural osmosis between Australia and New Zealand. After all, Hawaiian statehood was driven (despite issues of distance) by jingoistic Americans, while New Zealand was colonized predominately by British citizens, the Maori, and others who never considered themselves Australian. In addition, I would guess that immigration/cultural osmosis between the various mainland Australian colonies created a further sense of common identity and national unity in mainland Australia, while immigration/cultural osmosis between Australia and New Zealand was too insignificant to create the unity needed for them to unite.

Thus, with around sixty to seventy years to work with, I believe Wilcox can definitely solve the lack of ANZ unity through a number of means. For starters, let’s say British officials (perhaps for reasons similar to the mail thing you mentioned, or maybe due to bribes from NSW Business interests) requires that all exports produced in British Australasia/Oceania have to go through inspection in some Customs office in Sydney. Already, this would create an economic bond between New Zealand and mainland Australia that didn’t exist before. Next, perhaps butterflies lead to more aggressive French/Dutch Business interests that encourage greater economic/political cooperation between ANZ politicians and business leaders (and perhaps more immigration between ANZ). As a result, we now have another economic/political ANZ connection that didn’t exist in OTL. Finally, I think the most important step would be to have the butterflies prevent the rise of separate Australian/New Zealander identities. Instead, let’s have the great ANZ novelists, poets, artists, musicians, journalists, and politicians dream and preach about the greatness of the Australasian identity instead of separate Australian and New Zealander identities. Thus, when the first serious proposals/conferences for Federation come about ITTL, it won’t be about the creation of a united Australia. Instead, it will be about the creation of a united Australasia.

So I guess what needs to be done to have New Zealand join “Australia” is ultimately creating a national identity within New Zealand that would allow New Zealanders to feel proud about voting yes for federation. Of course, it will most likely have to be an Australasian identity that develops for this idea to work.

But even if New Zealand does reject federation the first time around, perhaps the effort put into an attempt at federation could still cause (like you mentioned) a customs union with a common currency/defense force/etc. Thus, once the Australian republican “Revolution” happens New Zealand might experience similar republican/socialist movements, and be willing to join Australia for the fun of it (or Australia could bribe New Zealand…whichever is more entertaining I suppose ).

In any case, I’m sorry about the wall of text and I’m sorry if my points were too simplistic or confusing.

 

[Ganesha]

Wilcoxchar:

I just got back from a week's vacation and read the last update. I really like the idea of a powerful, independent Korea, like many others, and it's something I haven't seen in a timeline before. Perhaps (though it may be far too late), you could prevent Japanese modernization altogether and have Japan conquered by Korea!

Incidentally, how are other Asian countries like India, Iran, and Thailand doing? India is still under the British, as I recall, but I can't remember anything about Iran or Thailand.

In any case, loved the update as always, and keep up the great work!

Cheers,
Ganesha

 

[Venusian Si]

IMHO, I too, think that Wentworth makes a lovely spot. But I don't think New England is the best name for Central Australia, mainly due to the fact that there is a part of the U.S. that is commonly known by this same name........how about something like New Ireland instead? Why not name it after a famed statesman, explorer, or some other personality Australians look up to? Or why not do a twist and give the region a native name?

Well, I’m glad you like the Wentworth idea! Still, I must apologize for the confusion. I didn’t mean to suggest that Central Australia should be named New England. In my original proposal, I suggested that South Australia should include the OTL Northern Territory and part of OTL Queensland, and be renamed Central Australia due to it being a more “geographically accurate” name instead of South Australia.

As for New England, it would have been OTL Queensland, and the northern strip of New South Wales, and it was designed to be an ITTL reference to this OTL movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_New_State_Movement

From what I could find, the region had been called New England since the 1830s, but I haven’t been able to figure out why exactly. *shrugs*

On the other hand, I actually like your New Ireland idea more, but since there’s already a New Ireland Island north of Australia, perhaps TTL’s version of Queensland could be named after one of Ireland’s provinces? I think New Munster would be a really pretty name for an Australian state.

As for the explorer idea, I would say Cooksland would be most likely candidate for any state named after anyone who’s not Queen Victoria, and a state (or a Nunavut equivalent) with an indigenous name would certainly be interesting too, but we might have to wait for TTL’s modern day for that to happen.

And why hasn't BNA{this does include Manitoba, right?} become independent yet? IMHO, if it isn't going to become part of Canada, it should just go to America if it's not going to be it's own nation.

Well, British North America is independent for the most part. Canada, Acadia, and Deseret (Mormon Manitoba) are all considered independent dominions of BNA.

Rupertsland (which is what I guess you’re referring to) is still under Hudson Bay Company/British control, but it’s slowly gaining self-government. In a way, I would say it’s currently like French Guiana is now in OTL. The majority of Rupertsland’s citizens presumably consider themselves British, Canadian, etc., and thus lack a separate national identity, or desire for independence.

Of course, if the Americans attack Rupertsland during the Great War, you will probably see the birth of a new national identity (perhaps even with a name besides Rupertsland: Borealia? Vesperia? Ursalia?).

In any case, I hope that helps.

 

[Utgard96]

On the other hand, I actually like your New Ireland idea more, but since there’s already a New Ireland Island north of Australia, perhaps TTL’s version of Queensland could be named after one of Ireland’s provinces? I think New Munster would be a really pretty name for an Australian state.

You might not want to use that one, especially not if the British and the Germans are friendly ITTL. It's easily confused with Münster. How about New Leinster or New Mide?

As for the explorer idea, I would say Cooksland would be most likely candidate for any state named after anyone who’s not Queen Victoria, and a state (or a Nunavut equivalent) with an indigenous name would certainly be interesting too, but we might have to wait for TTL’s modern day for that to happen.

Well, it'll certainly be a long while before the idea a native state in Australia is even mentioned in government circles. You do know what they were actively doing to the Aborigines even into the 30s, right?

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

snip

The only hole I found in this is that Hawaii in 1959 was just that. Hawaii - in 1959. ANZ union wasn't in 1959, it was in the 1800s (mid 1800s if I recall correctly). I mentioned that postal services between the two colonies went from New South Wales, all the way to England, then all the way to New Zealand rather than just across the Tasman. This is a prime example of how difficult it was.

I can't remember the man's name precisely, but the governor of NSW sent a single man to police the entirety of NZ, such was the Australian's understanding of NZ. I don't doubt that there are ways to overcome the initial problems, but speaking from an OTL perspective, in our timeline it wasn't at all possible. The problems weren't so much historical as they were logistical, which is why I don't feel like butterflies can really fix a whole lot. It's not as simple as lumping two nations together for the sake of it (which, as you said, amateurs do).

Western Australia nearly went the same way as NZ - some people there still want to. I think that was an exception to the rule more than anything.

But I have faith in Wilcox's abilities, so I'm sure if he does some research he will find a way

 

[jycee]

The only hole I found in this is that Hawaii in 1959 was just that. Hawaii - in 1959. ANZ union wasn't in 1959, it was in the 1800s (mid 1800s if I recall correctly). I mentioned that postal services between the two colonies went from New South Wales, all the way to England, then all the way to New Zealand rather than just across the Tasman. This is a prime example of how difficult it was.

I can't remember the man's name precisely, but the governor of NSW sent a single man to police the entirety of NZ, such was the Australian's understanding of NZ. I don't doubt that there are ways to overcome the initial problems, but speaking from an OTL perspective, in our timeline it wasn't at all possible. The problems weren't so much historical as they were logistical, which is why I don't feel like butterflies can really fix a whole lot. It's not as simple as lumping two nations together for the sake of it (which, as you said, amateurs do).

Western Australia nearly went the same way as NZ - some people there still want to. I think that was an exception to the rule more than anything.

But I have faith in Wilcox's abilities, so I'm sure if he does some research he will find a way

But as Venusian mentioned this bureaucratic problem is easy to fix. Like the customs check Venusian proposed all you need to fix this is to have London realize how idiotic this is and fix it. However, Britain in TTL has not behaved smartly at all. So... why would they do it here? If they treat ANZ the way they have treated Canada, Australasian unification would actually be a surprise.

In OTL Canada still unified despite logistics, even when there was (and still is) quite a varied degree of identities within the country. Quebec has a different language and Labrador & Newfoundland did not federate till the 1940s both retain their identities quite separate from the rest. So the New Zealander identity can still survive within a unified Australasia.

Speaking of British North America, something tells me at the very least Desseret and Hudson (whatever the Rupert's land Dominion is called) will have to end up as part of the US, I can't see how they can survive, Desseret is already semi-dependent on the US. And unless oil in Alberta is discovered soon, there is only so much use for Rupert's land.

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

But as Venusian mentioned this bureaucratic problem is easy to fix. Like the customs check Venusian proposed all you need to fix this is to have London realize how idiotic this is and fix it. However, Britain in TTL has not behaved smartly at all. So... why would they do it here? If they treat ANZ the way they have treated Canada, Australasian unification would actually be a surprise.

In OTL Canada still unified despite logistics, even when there was (and still is) quite a varied degree of identities within the country. Quebec has a different language and Labrador & Newfoundland did not federate till the 1940s both retain their identities quite separate from the rest. So the New Zealander identity can still survive within a unified Australasia.

The New Zealander identity isn't distinct enough to survive alongside the Australian one. Heck even I'd admit that to the untrained ear our accents sound similar.

You also make a good point about ANZ vs. Canada. I don't fully understand the politics behind the Dominion of Deseret (other than the fact that it is a predominently Mormon state, etc.) as it is a small, land-locked country fully dependent on the nations around it for survival (i.e., getting in goods). You said that it would surprising for the government in Britain to create a federation out of Australia and New Zealand due to the way they have behaved thus far - which I agree with.

Australia would need to be deemed 'responsible' for the postal issue to be resolved. There wasn't enough faith in the abilities of the Australian governors to effectively run a postal service, hence why it all went to Britain before New Zealand. Imagine being an official in New Zealand under the jurisdiction of the Governor of New South Wales. You await orders to attack a Maori fortress. You send a letter describing the situation to the Governor of NSW, the letter spends 6 months on a boat to London, and is recieved a week after that. The letter then spends another 6 months travelling back to Australia, a few weeks later the governor gets around to reading it, then gives the order to attack. Another year later, the official in NZ gets the letter, looks up from his cup of tea and sees that the fortress has been abandoned. Oops.

Events like the one above actually happened in 19th Century NZ, and many a time were soldiers or politicians punished for 'disobeying orders' when the orders were still on their way to England.

There's a way to do it, I'm not saying there isn't. But it will be more difficult than just "New Zealand + Australia = plot device."

 

[wilcoxchar]

Just a heads up, I'll try to get a quick update done by Thursday on the 1888 election. After that I'll be out of the country until July 4 so the TL will be on hiatus for a bit. I'm going to Slovenia and Vienna for ten days!

 

[Ganesha]

Just a heads up, I'll try to get a quick update done by Thursday on the 1888 election. After that I'll be out of the country until July 4 so the TL will be on hiatus for a bit. I'm going to Slovenia and Vienna for ten days!

Cool, it'll be nice to see the update. Just in case you missed it in the middle of the conversation, I'll restate my questions;

Incidentally, how are other Asian countries like India, Iran, and Thailand doing? India is still under the British, as I recall, but I can't remember anything about Iran or Thailand.

Enjoy your vacation, man! Sounds great; where are you going in Slovenia? And are you going anywhere in Austria besides Vienna?

 

[wilcoxchar]

Cool, it'll be nice to see the update. Just in case you missed it in the middle of the conversation, I'll restate my questions;

Enjoy your vacation, man! Sounds great; where are you going in Slovenia? And are you going anywhere in Austria besides Vienna?

Thanks! We're probably not going anywhere in Austria besides Vienna. We have a hotel there for 5 days and the usual other things (Salzburg, the Tirol) are probably too far for day trips. Might do one to Budapest (2 hours drive according to Google Maps) or Bratislava (1.5 hour boat ride down the Danube) though. We might stop somewhere for a bit driving between Ljubljana and Vienna, not really sure what would be good to see in that area though.


EDIT: Completely forgot to answer your question. Thailand had a bad defeat by the Brits in the 1860s or so, so they might modernize some but they won't become a major power or anything. One other possibility is Burma, since I haven't figured out whether I'll have them annexed by the British or not. If they're helped by the French or someone else, they could become a major thorn in the East India Company's side later on.

I also haven't really decided what will happen to Persia yet. Probably Russian and British spheres of influence, maybe Ottomans pressing east to save face after losing Egypt. There will likely be some modernization after pressure by the great powers and after oil is discovered, but as for becoming a regional power I'm not sure yet. Depending on how the Ottomans end up it could be interesting to have a modernized Persia fill a power vacuum in the Middle East in the 20th century.

 

[Ganesha]

Downloadable Version

By the way, I've taken the entire timeline (without pictures), combined it into one document, and made it into a PDF for easier consumption. It's nice to just be able to read it without scrolling through pages of comments.

Hope you guys enjoy it! Wilcoxchar, over the last two years, you've written 135 pages of single-spaced timeline. You have both quality and quantity.

Cheers, Ganesha

 

[jycee]

By the way, I've taken the entire timeline (without pictures), combined it into one document, and made it into a PDF for easier consumption. It's nice to just be able to read it without scrolling through pages of comments.

Hope you guys enjoy it! Wilcoxchar, over the last two years, you've written 135 pages of single-spaced timeline. You have both quality and quantity.

Cheers, Ganesha

This is one impressive document. Htas off to Wilcoxchar

 

[wilcoxchar]

Thanks Ganesha, that's wonderful!

 

[wilcoxchar]

And since I'm leaving for vacation tomorrow, here's the next update for you all!

Part Eighty: The Election of 1888

Election of 1888:
The Silver Depression took a toll on the United States economy during the Edmunds administration that put the Republicans in a difficult position during the following elections. In 1886 as unemployment rose and silver prices continued to drop, the upcoming midterm elections looked bleak for the Republican Party. The large Democratic minority in the House of Representatives managed to disrupt attempts to pass legislation aimed at alleviating the economic crisis because it did not place the United States on the gold standard. Both parties also suffered some defections during the 1886 elections, as members of Congress dissatisfied with either major party switched allegiance to the newly founded People's Party. The most prominent of these defections came from Illinois Congressman Adlai E. Stevenson[1], who had been nominated by both the Republican and Populist tickets but after 1886 made his official affiliation with the People's Party. The Republicans lost the House to the Democrats in 1886 and John Carlisle of Illinois was elected Speaker.

By the time 1888 rolled around, the Silver Depression was in full swing. Unemployment had risen to over 10 percent by January of 1888, despite efforts by the Edmunds administration to right the American economy. Labor strikes had also escalated in the years since the Silver Depression. The Pennsylvania Driller Strike in early 1888 brought the oil extraction industry in the region for weeks. With the country continuing to struggle into the summer of 1888, the Democrats nominated Grover Cleveland for the presidency and Thomas Bayard of Delaware[2] for the Vice Presidency. The Republicans stuck with Edmunds and Sherman, assuring the American people that the economic recovery was coming soon and that the Republicans would improve the conditions of the American worker. The People's Party, which would evolve into the Progressive Party, also participated in the presidential election for the first time, fielding James Weaver and Adlai Stevenson as its candidates. Despite the claims by the Republicans, the American public overwhelmingly returned the Democrats to the White House. The 1888 election also marked the first time that the Southern states all voted for the same party since before the National War.

Cleveland/Bayard: 236 EVs
Edmunds/Sherman: 103 EVs
Weaver/Stevenson: 0 EVs


[1] Not sure if I'm going to have future generations of Adlai Stevensons, so I didn't put the number afterward.
[2] Son of former VP James Bayard.

 

[wilcoxchar]

And here's the electoral map. (Also drat, the update came on the end of a page.)