Union and Liberty: An American TL

Ask, and ye shall receive! Here's a map of the world from 1890, as best as I could get from going through past updates. There should probably be more colonization of southern Africa, and I might have gotten the borders of the Canadian dominions a bit off.

The HBC counts as a dominion?
 
Why wouldn't Sonora be fans of the California goverment. Sure they were annexed by force but seems to me that they are stuck between two stronge (and probably rival) countries. It is either California or Rio Bravo, and they might have chosen the lesser of two evils (maybe not). Secondly Sonora is very lightly populated so they can't really make a big impact on anything.

Let's view this from a hypothetical scenario. During the OTL Great Game, Afghanistan could have been annexed by either Russia or the British Empire, so let's say Russia eventually ends up annexing it. Now later on, a re-energized China (for whatever ASB reason or not) invades Russia. Would Afghanistan have any reason to be supportive of the Russian government during a Chinese invasion just because being ruled by Britain was the only other option? While Afghanistan would surely prefer independence to being ruled by either the Russians, British, or Chinese, any anger that the average citizen of Afghanistan experiences will most likely be directed towards the nation who first stole their independence (in this case, the Russians).

Admittedly, the above is a poor example since Russia and Afghanistan lack the cultural similarities that California and Sonora have. Still, the Sonorans (or at least those who lived in Sonora before the California invasion) are not going to be loyal to California for California's sake. Instead, they'll probably support California only because they prefer the Hispanic rulers of California to the Gringos in Washington.

Another fact we have to remember though is that TTL's Sonora (after the Texas fiasco) was the first Mexican splinter state to exile Mexico's federal troops. Thus, it's possible that Sonora had the strongest national identity of them all, but regardless though, most of the above is ultimately a moot point since Sonora's population is (persumably) too small to matter anyway.

Way I see it most residents of Sonora are either a) poor farmers indifferent of who governs them or b) rich landowners who might have actually benefited (and assisted) in the annexation. There is likely a middle class growing in Hermosillo, and Guyamas but it is likely made up mostly of recent immigrants from other parts of Mexico and Asia (Wilcox did mention Filipinos were very welcome in Cali) so they are probably very pro California.

In the case of (a), America could persumably annex Sonora without too much trouble if the common Sonoran doesn't care who rules, but racism will likely cause problems not long after.

In the case of (b), the rich landowners are just as likely jump ship when America invades California if they were willing to sell out their own country. While California was certainly richer than independent Sonora, it is still economically turbulent, or at least in comparison to the United States.

As for the immigrant class, I certainly agree with you, but their population is probably still too small to make any real difference once the war happens.

San Isidro which is away from the coast, likely receives much less immigration and also has a higher native (navajo) population probably thinks less kindly of the Monterrey government than Sonora does.

True, but California's history has made it (relatively speaking) more racially tolerant than the United States. Besides, the Navajo and other indigenous tribes are quite likely to have heard the U.S.'s bloody history with the Iroquois, Cherokee, Sioux, etc by the time of the Great War. So while San Isidro might like Monterry less than Sonora, San Isidro is certainly going to dislike Washington more than it does Monterry.

It be interesting to have an update on the demographics and politics of California, it is certainly a very interesting and diverse place.It seem it is basically an amalgamation of nations and peoples, only tied together by (as rhyno pointed out) politics over water rights, and probably a pride in not wanting to give up the name California. Come to think about it, not very different from OTL's.

Agreed!

After reading rhyno's analysis of California's water situation, I firmly believe the United States will eventually "settle" with Sonora, San Isidro, Cañon, and Espejo. Also, annexing Sonora might even become necessary if the U.S. annexes part or all of the Rio Bravo republic (persuming it's still a British Ally by the time of the Great War).

BTW Wilcox, what is the status of Hawaii?

I would assume that it's still divided between California and Japan, but I doubt it's much different from OTL except for the new ruling elite being Japanese/Hispanic instead of Anglo-American.

Although, a retcon Wilcox might want to do is have Japan be an American ally during the Great War, and annex California's portion of the Hawaiian islands instead of the U.S.
 
Venusian:

I think I agree with you; you make a very sound argument. The only other points that I would make over Sonora's population are:

The immigrants (Asian, hispanic and perhaps Italian) will likely outnumber Sonora's native population in certain towns, perhaps all major towns in the coast. So it is not as simple as their voice doesn't count. They are recent immigrants that came to California looking for stability, an invasion and occupation by a foreign power with its political center across the continent, are quite the opposite.

And while the elite might happily sell their country once again to another power, bare in mind that Sonora's elite by the time of annexation has changed; they would be the children of the one who sold themselves to California. This new elite might be very eager to prove their Californian-ness. The immigrant class is also likely to be building their own elite, and they will certainly be eager to prove just how Californian they are.

Although the more territory the US annexes the more anti-US California is likely to remain. Lets say the US takes Espejo, San Isidro, Cañon, Gran Cuenca, Sonora (and maybe Trujillo), and sets up a friendly rump-government in the rest of California. This government is likely to be bought, paid for, and very corrupt. I see an OTL Cuba situation developing very fast. Where this government is quickly overthrown by fiery revolutionaries, and a closed off and very anti-US government is set up. Separated by mountains and desert (and likely backed up by a rival power) California's rebel government might last for long.

This is also a very, very interesting scenario. And if the US now has to deal with an unhappy, unwilling, and rebellious population on the areas that it did annex, well that also makes quite an interesting story. Whatever Wilcox chooses to go with I am fine, and will remain a fan of the TL.
 
I would just like to remind use that in a previous update he mentioned that California would come to regret signing an alliance with Britain as it would mean that Theodore Roosevelt would order the Annexation of all of California after the USA invades, go back and look if use want
 
I would just like to remind use that in a previous update he mentioned that California would come to regret signing an alliance with Britain as it would mean that Theodore Roosevelt would order the Annexation of all of California after the USA invades, go back and look if use want


In the days following that post, Wilcoxchar generally agreed to consider retconning that post due to popular demand. But he has never set in stone what will actually happen.

It's a fun source of speculation that keeps this thread alive... but I want an Update soonish!
 
The HBC counts as a dominion?
I couldn't really decide on how to represent it on the map, but since it gained a much larger amount of control over the territorial affairs in 1890, I put it as a dominion.


Thanks for all the discussion on California everyone. I'm still trying to figure out what will eventually happen to it and have definitely been considering what you've said.

Also, I'll have another update done tomorrow.
 
I see an OTL Cuba situation developing very fast. Where this government is quickly overthrown by fiery revolutionaries, and a closed off and very anti-US government is set up. Separated by mountains and desert (and likely backed up by a rival power) California's rebel government might last for long.

They would of course be using the teletext to communicate and coordinate?
 
Culture #3: The World of Sports
Got the update done. Another sporting one, politics will return in the next update.

Culture #3: The World of Sports

The Olympics Leave Greece:
After the first modern Olympics were held in 1882, the International Olympic Committee made the decision to move the games out of Greece. They hoped that having the games held in different countries would help to attract interest in the Olympiad. Because of influence by IOC president William Penny Brookes, it was decided that the Second Olympiad would be hosted in London in 1886. The 1886 were set to coincide with the International Colonial Exposition in London. Along with colonial pavilions by the British East India Company and other British colonies, athletes from several British colonies competed in the Olympics. Some of the new countries with athletes competing for the first time in the Olympics in 1886 included Argentina, Canada, the Netherlands, British India, and Australia.

Some of the highlights of the Second Olympiad came from the new events that premiered in 1886. One of the most popular new competitions of the London Olympics was in cricket, which had grown in popularity in Great Britain and her colonies. Teams representing Great Britain, France, and Australia held a round robin series of test matches[1]. It ended up that the final game between rivals Britain and Australia was the deciding match for the gold medal as they had both beaten the French team. Other new sports were added that were also of particular interest to the British attendees. These included archery, equestrian events, rowing, and football. In the rowing event, the Balliol eights team won the gold medal for Great Britain, beating out the Columbia team which won silver.

Football also saw its Olympic debut in London as Great Britain, Belgium, and the United States sent teams to compete. The matches were the first international matches played between teams representing the British Isles and the United States. Two teams from Great Britain, Sheffield FC from England and Queen's Park from Scotland, along with Harvard University from the United States and Klub Atletik Gent from Belgium competed in the games. Harvard University made it to the gold medal match by defeating Queen's Park 3-0, but lost to Sheffield FC 6-1 in the gold medal match. Queen's Park defeated K. A. Gent for the bronze medal. As both teams were from Britain, both the gold and the bronze were given to Great Britain while the United States brought back silver.


A Whole New Ball Game:
After the formation of the Mesoamerican Union, interest in the pre-Columbian cultures of the isthmus spiked in the country. The government encourage this interest, as many leaders thought that the revival of Mayan elements would help to create a national unifying culture in Mesoamerica. At the time, several ballcourts had been discovered throughout Mesoamerica and the southern Mexican states. In 1890, Augusto Gamboa, a professor at the Universidad de San Carlos de Guatemala, adapted the discoveries made at the ballcourts to create a new more modern version. Gamboa devised a set of rules for what he called Poktapok after the closest Mayan term for the pre-Columbian version and played the game in a small court with a traditional rubber ball which players attempted to get through a ring mounted on either side of the court. The game was originally played with seven people on a side. While players were holding the ball, they were not allowed to move from their position and had to throw it to other players on their team[2].

The first game was played between two sides at the Universidad de San Carlos near the end of 1890. Over the next decade, the game spread throughout Mesoamerica. While there were few attempts to organize professional leagues across Mesoamerica, several teams were created and in 1901, the first successful professional league was formed. The Liga Nacional de Poktapok first had six teams, each representing the capitals of the country's six provinces. The first seasons were played in outdoor fields with temporarily set up end hoops, but starting in 1905 permanent courts were built. The league expanded to ten teams by 1910, and poktapok spread to Costa Rica and the southern Mexican states during the 1910s and 1920s. Poktapok became one of the most popular sports in Central America and today there is a minor following of the sport in Cuba and other areas with large Mesoamerican immigrant populations.

[1] The matches were held over a month, but back then they only played three matches per series. And yes, I've probably got some of the terminology wrong, so feel free to correct me. :D
[2] This is similar to the original rules of basketball in OTL, which Naismith partly based on the findings of the Mayan game (according to what I read on Wiki). Poktapok will probably replace basketball in TTL.
 
Football also saw its Olympic debut in London as Great Britain, Belgium, and the United States sent teams to compete. The matches were the first international matches played between teams representing the British Isles and the United States. Two teams from Great Britain, Sheffield FC from England and Queen's Park from Scotland, along with Harvard University from the United States and Klub Atletik Gent from Belgium competed in the games. Harvard University made it to the gold medal match by defeating Queen's Park 3-0, but lost to Sheffield FC 6-1 in the gold medal match. Queen's Park defeated K. A. Gent for the bronze medal. As both teams were from Britain, both the gold and the bronze were given to Great Britain while the United States brought back silver.

So the idea of the national team is dead. How sad.

A Whole New Ball Game:
After the formation of the Mesoamerican Union, interest in the pre-Columbian cultures of the isthmus spiked in the country. The government encourage this interest, as many leaders thought that the revival of Mayan elements would help to create a national unifying culture in Mesoamerica. At the time, several ballcourts had been discovered throughout Mesoamerica and the southern Mexican states. In 1890, Augusto Gamboa, a professor at the Universidad de San Carlos de Guatemala, adapted the discoveries made at the ballcourts to create a new more modern version. Gamboa devised a set of rules for what he called Poktapok after the closest Mayan term for the pre-Columbian version and played the game in a small court with a traditional rubber ball which players attempted to get through a ring mounted on either side of the court. The game was originally played with seven people on a side. While players were holding the ball, they were not allowed to move from their position and had to throw it to other players on their team[2].

The first game was played between two sides at the Universidad de San Carlos near the end of 1890. Over the next decade, the game spread throughout Mesoamerica. While there were few attempts to organize professional leagues across Mesoamerica, several teams were created and in 1901, the first successful professional league was formed. The Liga Nacional de Poktapok first had six teams, each representing the capitals of the country's six provinces. The first seasons were played in outdoor fields with temporarily set up end hoops, but starting in 1905 permanent courts were built. The league expanded to ten teams by 1910, and poktapok spread to Costa Rica and the southern Mexican states during the 1910s and 1920s. Poktapok became one of the most popular sports in Central America and today there is a minor following of the sport in Cuba and other areas with large Mesoamerican immigrant populations.

Interesting. It's similar to basketball, of course, but still very different. Good job designing a sport!
 
So the idea of the national team is dead. How sad.

If I am not mistaken, this is how it was originally iOTL as well. The Olympics were supposed to be for amateur sport. College teams, and clubs used to play before the formation of national teams. And even today a team can sign up independently form their national team. But they still have to choose over what flag they will compete.


Interesting. It's similar to basketball, of course, but still very different. Good job designing a sport!

Agree. This is interesting. My only quirk is that Poktapok is difficult to pronounce even for a Spanish speaker. It is likely to be bastardized into Potkaból very fast. But it is a cool alternative to basketball, not sure how much it will spread. If it stays mostly as a regional sport, another urban sport will likely still develop in the US. Unless a fast version of football (soccer) takes over.
 
So the idea of the national team is dead. How sad.
Jycee is right. In some of the early Olympics in OTL, it would be the clubs that entered that would compete for their nation. In 1900, the UK, France, and Belgium competed in football, but only France had what would today be considered a nationally selected team. Great Britain had Upton Park FC compete for them and Belgium had Universite de Bruxelles.

Agree. This is interesting. My only quirk is that Poktapok is difficult to pronounce even for a Spanish speaker. It is likely to be bastardized into Potkaból very fast. But it is a cool alternative to basketball, not sure how much it will spread. If it stays mostly as a regional sport, another urban sport will likely still develop in the US. Unless a fast version of football (soccer) takes over.
Hmm. I guess it is a little hard to pronounce for a native Spanish speaker. I could have it be corrupted into Pótxabol (with 'tx' pronounced as 'ch' as in Nahuatl) over the years.
 
Hmm. I guess it is a little hard to pronounce for a native Spanish speaker. I could have it be corrupted into Pótxabol (with 'tx' pronounced as 'ch' as in Nahuatl) over the years.

In the English-speaking world world that could become 'Pauchaball'?
 
jycee:

Thank you, and I must say that you have excellent counterpoints.

Still, both you and I face a major problem when it comes to analyzing California. Without specifics such as demographics and personal attitudes among California's individual provinces, we can only guess on what will happen during the American occupation of California.

For example - ever since the idea of California annexation has been brought up, nearly everyone has assumed that Espejo would be annexed by the United States, but why would the United States want to annex a territory who has no major resources that could be harvested with early 20th Century technology, and whose population fled the United States decades ago? Admittedly the Mormons of Espejo are English-speaking Anglos, but that's pretty much the only current connection they would have to the United States besides trade connections that would exist whether the United States owned Espejo or not. For all we know, the Mormons of Espejo could become the most vicious resistance fighters in occupied California, but we won't know until the occupation actually happens.

And while there will certainly will be Americans ITTL who will argue that it's the United States' duty to annex Trujillo to "Liberate our American brothers" or the bay area to "Secure America's interest in the Pacific," those aren't going to be the reasons why America annexes any bit of American territory.

At the end of the day, I would assume the Americans of TTL's Great War are probably going to be a very jingoistic lot who will demand land from their enemies to fulfill their desire to prove America's greatness, and as revenge for spilt American blood. Unfortunately, California (and I would assume Rio Bravo if it's still a British Ally) will suffer the blunt of this since British (and maybe Russian) influence will probably prevent the United States from annexing any northern territories, but again, this just simple guessing.

Although the more territory the US annexes the more anti-US California is likely to remain. Lets say the US takes Espejo, San Isidro, Cañon, Gran Cuenca, Sonora (and maybe Trujillo), and sets up a friendly rump-government in the rest of California. This government is likely to be bought, paid for, and very corrupt. I see an OTL Cuba situation developing very fast. Where this government is quickly overthrown by fiery revolutionaries, and a closed off and very anti-US government is set up. Separated by mountains and desert (and likely backed up by a rival power) California's rebel government might last for long.

This is pretty much what I've wanted to see since the National War. In particular, here’s a possible scenario I envisioned about what would happen after the Great War.

*In order to protect Canada and the other Laurentine nations, Great Britain sells out its allies of California and Rio Bravo by “approving” of America’s annexation of both nations while Japan secures ownership of Hawaii. After a few years of fierce resistance from the local populace from both nations, and a lack of organization from the United States’ part, a plan is finally formed to handle the situation.

Under the plan, the United States keeps the eastern half of California, and divides it into the military territories of Espejo, Arizuma (San Isidro/Cañon), and Sonora. The rest of California has its independence restored, but the new government is nothing more than an American puppet. Furthermore, rebellious groups still in American territory (such as the Navajo, the more anti-American Mormons, etc.) are expelled from their homes and forced to move to the restored Californian Republic. This, of course, will be viewed as a god-awful idea by the U.S. Government in hindsight.

As for the Rio Bravo, it is not as “fortunate” as California. Due to its smaller geographic size, population, and economic importance on the world stage, the United States simply decides to keep the whole nation, and divides it into the military territories of Chihuahua, Coahuila, New Leon, and Tamaulipas. Likewise, the United States also practices a policy of expulsion to any rebellious groups in the former Rio Bravo, and forces them to go to either California or the remaining Mexican-splinter states. Eventually, the United States will also come to severely regret this.

Naturally, the expulsion policy creates even more anti-American sentiment among those in California and Central America.

As for California, a few decades go by before the pro-American government is overthrown by a horrifically bloody revolution that leads to a government that would make Fidel Castro look like an Ultra-Americanophile. In the Mexican-splinter states, hatred of America, and fear of a possible invasion, causes all the Mexican-splinter states, except Veracruz, to join Mesoamerican Union over the next three or so decades. As a result, the Mesoamerican Union becomes a major anti-American state.

In the end, both California and Mesoamerica will actively be thorns in America’s backside for decades to come. They’ll also play major roles in any sort of Cold War scenario that might develop (perhaps a Russian-British-Japanese vs. American-Chinese-German affair? :p) And just for fun, let’s have Veracruz and Costa Rica become places or international intrigue, with Veracruz in particular being a Hong Kong analogue, and the site of famous spy movies such as “From Veracruz with Love.”*

In any case, how does that sound? ;)
 
Poktapok seems like a fascinating sport; I'm glad Gamboa removed the bit about ritual sacrifice after the game. I don't see how it'll replace basketball, though, if you mention in the timeline that it's only played in the US "with a minor following" in areas with large Mesoamerican populations.
 
In any case, how does that sound?

Love it!! You propose an incredible scenario.

Lets just remember this is Wilcox's TL. But keep this one in mind Wilcox.

I think Cali would be vehemently anti-American (as proposed a Cuba analogue), this includes the old anglo-Californian elite. But Mesoamerica, since it has not suffered any real threat since the Mexican American war that happened a 100 years prior, and even then not all of it was involved would likely be more of a Yugoslavia, non-aligned situation.
 
I had actually missed Venusian's proposed scenario. It looks great. One situation I had thought of with California was sort of similar to this, except more closely mirroring the Philippine-American War. Basically the US annexes all of California, but the remaining Californio military retreats to the wilderness (mainly the Sierra Nevada) and begins a guerrilla war with the US that lasts for years. The main coastal cities in California would be pretty calm aside from a few raids and ambushes, but the interior would be very chaotic. I'm not sure where the Mormons and the Navajo would fit in to this; the Mormons might accept annexation and representation, but I don't know if the Navajo would and I also don't know if the Navajo would work with the Californio government either.
 
I had actually missed Venusian's proposed scenario. It looks great. One situation I had thought of with California was sort of similar to this, except more closely mirroring the Philippine-American War. Basically the US annexes all of California, but the remaining Californio military retreats to the wilderness (mainly the Sierra Nevada) and begins a guerrilla war with the US that lasts for years. The main coastal cities in California would be pretty calm aside from a few raids and ambushes, but the interior would be very chaotic. I'm not sure where the Mormons and the Navajo would fit in to this; the Mormons might accept annexation and representation, but I don't know if the Navajo would and I also don't know if the Navajo would work with the Californio government either.
I think California would end up more like Tibet than Algeria or the Phillippines, though. Defeated through repression and immigration.
 
I think California would end up more like Tibet than Algeria or the Phillippines, though. Defeated through repression and immigration.

California has a far larger population than Tibet, though. It's likely to be even larger considering that California has more territory ITTL.

Another thing is, how much would the US really care about California declaring war? California was starting to lean towards the US until Britain called up on their debts, and the US already has unrestricted access to San Francisco Bay, as well as the fact that they helped California build a significant fleet. From how wilcoxchar described it in the update, it sounded like the US defeats California with little trouble. Would they have a more "no harm, no foul" attitude, and just annex a state or two as payment for California's debt and resume unrestricted access to SFB, or would they be more like, "How dare you betray for the British!", and follow a plan like Venusian proposed?
 
Love it!! You propose an incredible scenario.

Lets just remember this is Wilcox's TL. But keep this one in mind Wilcox.

Oh definitely! Like you've said, I'll remain a fan no matter what direction TTL goes in, and thanks.

I think Cali would be vehemently anti-American (as proposed a Cuba analogue), this includes the old anglo-Californian elite. But Mesoamerica, since it has not suffered any real threat since the Mexican American war that happened a 100 years prior, and even then not all of it was involved would likely be more of a Yugoslavia, non-aligned situation.

Yeah, I originally came up with the expulsions/Mesoamerica's annexation of the remaining Mexican states, as a way of making Mesoamerica more anti-U.S., but perhaps they could be part of a "neutral" third bloc lead by France or what-not (if a Cold War scenario happens anyway.)

I had actually missed Venusian's proposed scenario. It looks great. One situation I had thought of with California was sort of similar to this, except more closely mirroring the Philippine-American War. Basically the US annexes all of California, but the remaining Californio military retreats to the wilderness (mainly the Sierra Nevada) and begins a guerrilla war with the US that lasts for years. The main coastal cities in California would be pretty calm aside from a few raids and ambushes, but the interior would be very chaotic. I'm not sure where the Mormons and the Navajo would fit in to this; the Mormons might accept annexation and representation, but I don't know if the Navajo would and I also don't know if the Navajo would work with the Californio government either.

That sounds interesting! Based on what jycee and I've discussed on Sonora though, the coastal settlements will probably put up more of a resistance. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how much more though.

As for the Mormons, Navajo, etc., they might just wait and see what the U.S. does before they perform any act of rebellion. None of these groups seem terribly loyal to the Californian government, so they might accept U.S. annexation. Of course, if the U.S. tries to interfere with local customs more than the Californian government did, then we might see these groups rebel.

California has a far larger population than Tibet, though. It's likely to be even larger considering that California has more territory ITTL?

Another thing to remember is that the population difference between California and the United States is much smaller that that of Tibet and China. If OTL demographics are anything to go by, the population of the California Republic by 1920 should be at least 5 million while U.L.'s United States should have at least 100 million. In comparison, the Tibet Autonomous Region (even with relatively extensive Han immigration) currently has almost three million people while the rest of the PRC has over 1.3 billion.

Another thing is, how much would the US really care about California declaring war? California was starting to lean towards the US until Britain called up on their debts, and the US already has unrestricted access to San Francisco Bay, as well as the fact that they helped California build a significant fleet. From how wilcoxchar described it in the update, it sounded like the US defeats California with little trouble. Would they have a more "no harm, no foul" attitude, and just annex a state or two as payment for California's debt and resume unrestricted access to SFB, or would they be more like, "How dare you betray for the British!", and follow a plan like Venusian proposed?

I would assume the American public's reaction would be similar to what it would be if Canada invaded the Idaho Panhandle in WW1. While the Canadians and Californians wouldn't cause extensive damage to U.S. infrastructure, the average American would still be pissed as hell if not screaming death to California/Canada. Also, the 1890s-1920s was the period in OTL that Yellow Journalism and Jingoism were at their height of popularity in the United States, so there's always that to consider.

Still, if Wilcox wants to get the American population's blood absolutely riled up, he could always have the Californian Army invade American soil first, massacre a couple of American villages/forts, and then declare war.
 
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