Union and Liberty: An American TL

Ooh so Robert E. Lee ended up being president after all, and as a Republican. This is very interesting. I have to say with Harrison surviving his term, Houston being elected into his 60s, and Lee running at his age now this TL is setting a standard of very old presidents.

How come Whitman was no longer VP in Fremont's second term and why didn't he run this time? He seemed popular and well spoken during the war.
Also no new states for this election? That west is getting populated slowly.

Still looking forward to what Robert E. Lee US President could be like.

Does that preclude, or even create, the "drug war"? My thinking is, with more Latins in U.S., there'd also be more MJ, which the white establishment doesn't use, & so tends to prohibit... And the belief in "moral decay" from intoxicants was fairly prevalent, as I understand it.

That, or with more latins in the US earlier over a longer time (with latins more accepted ATL, as evidenced by the Seguin political dynasty) then more anglos adopting MJ for recreational use and MJ becoming a standard American recreational intoxicant alongside tobacco and alcohol. ;)

It precludes the drug war, which is going on right now. Prohibition was in the 1920s in the US. Basically my idea was that since ITTLs US has a higher Latin and Catholic population that probably brought along with them Rum (from Cuba) and Tequila/Agave (from Tejas/the higher Mexican population) that prohibition, at least at a Federal level will be butterflied away.
The reasons being they tend to have a larger drinking culture and regard alcohol as part of their everyday lives. And furthermore Rum & Tequila have generally been considered more social drinks that whiskey, gin, wheat/barley/rhy based drinks, which is what was generally drank in the US. So ITTL the US might have more of a drinking culture than OTL.

Also MJ is neither the standard nor accepted in Latin America today that is a pretty bad stereotype. I grew up in Mexico and now live in California and I am a recreational smoker. But from my personal experiences white Americans are much more tolerant about the recreational use of weed than Mexicans either in California or Mexico. As the song goes "que de la droga que sembramos ustedes son consumadores" (of the drugs we grow you are the consumers). And it is illegal in both places although it is likely to become legal in Cali this November if the voting goes right.
 
Ooh so Robert E. Lee ended up being president after all, and as a Republican. This is very interesting. I have to say with Harrison surviving his term, Houston being elected into his 60s, and Lee running at his age now this TL is setting a standard of very old presidents.

How come Whitman was no longer VP in Fremont's second term and why didn't he run this time? He seemed popular and well spoken during the war.
Also no new states for this election? That west is getting populated slowly.

Still looking forward to what Robert E. Lee US President could be like.
Whitman was running with Johnson in 1864 against Fremont and lost, he was never Fremont's VP. The only new state in the election is Champoeg. The US economy was still recovering from the National War when the 1870 census was done, but I might have some electoral changes in the mid-1870s now that all the South is back in Congress to increase the total number of EVs.

Here's the electoral map for the 1872 election.

Alternate Presidents 1872 election.png
 
wilcoxchar, I really like this TL, and I will subscribe to it now. I've been following it since the start of the National War though. It's funny that you named a state Champoeg:D

And also funny that Lee was noted for his loyalty.

Would you mind if I used some of your ideas for my TL later? My Confederacy already looks quite similar to yours.
 
Wilcox, one question on the map: wasn't Colorado already a state by now? I was trying to find the update you had with the westward expansion for the exact date you mentioned. But I could't find it.

Other than that really interesting how Louisiana went Republican both times. I guess Lee is considered a moderate candidate for the Republicans over the other possibilities.
 
wilcoxchar, I really like this TL, and I will subscribe to it now. I've been following it since the start of the National War though. It's funny that you named a state Champoeg:D

And also funny that Lee was noted for his loyalty.

Would you mind if I used some of your ideas for my TL later? My Confederacy already looks quite similar to yours.
Feel free to use any ideas from my TL. I'm just happy to be inspiring more TLs on the board.

Wilcox, one question on the map: wasn't Colorado already a state by now? I was trying to find the update you had with the westward expansion for the exact date you mentioned. But I could't find it.

Other than that really interesting how Louisiana went Republican both times. I guess Lee is considered a moderate candidate for the Republicans over the other possibilities.
Colorado becomes a state in 1876. Louisiana has stayed Republican primarily because of the greater Catholic and urban population. It was a close call though.
 
Feel free to use any ideas from my TL. I'm just happy to be inspiring more TLs on the board.

Thank you, truth is Union and Liberty was my greatest inspiration. Did you look at my TL? It's in my sig.

Just a little shameless self-advertising, I'm usually rather modest, so give me one time.
 
Colorado becomes a state in 1876. Louisiana has stayed Republican primarily because of the greater Catholic and urban population. It was a close call though.
I'm glad you take care not to have any states with no natural borders. Colorado finally has a natural border (Arkansas River). :cool:
 
Thank you, truth is Union and Liberty was my greatest inspiration. Did you look at my TL? It's in my sig.

Just a little shameless self-advertising, I'm usually rather modest, so give me one time.
Thanks. I just took a look at your TL, and it's looking good.

I'm glad you take care not to have any states with no natural borders. Colorado finally has a natural border (Arkansas River). :cool:
Yeah, it bugs me sometimes how people seem to automatically go for straight borders in the western US when there's a perfectly good natural border running right near the line they used.
 
So Wilcoxchar, are you going to get into some wild west stuff? And what's going on with the plains tribes? Also, you might have mention this (so sorry), but how are relations between California and the Natives within it's borders?

And my final question, what's going to happen to Alaska?
 
- Lincoln ...a lowly Illinois lawyer
This is actually a persistent myth. Lincoln was a top-grade corporate litigator. He affected a "down-home" style, but he was no rube.
Although with Lincoln in his spot as Supreme Couty Justice, I don't know if he would have had any political ambitions.
Actually, from what I've heard/read (by no means extensive, but look at Team of Rivals), he wanted to be Pres from very early on.
That, or with more latins in the US earlier over a longer time (with latins more accepted ATL, as evidenced by the Seguin political dynasty) then more anglos adopting MJ for recreational use and MJ becoming a standard American recreational intoxicant alongside tobacco and alcohol. ;)
My preference would be no Prohibition at all. Which has serious butterflies for the formation of organized crime. It also has really, really big butterflies for street crime generally, which would be drastically lower. Society would be much safer & "quieter". Conceivably, this reduces the chances of race riots, too, since police are less present, leaving less a sense of being an ocupying force in black neighborhoods (which is frequent OTL). Also, without the gang wars over Prohibition, gun control is likely to be less prevalent or potent, which has significant effects, including one surprising one: before about 1934, it was possible to buy the likes of Thompson SMGs over the counter. TTL, that's likely to still be possible.:cool: (Add open carry, & every day is like a day in "24".:eek::p)

Something else occurs to me. With so many Latins in the U.S., it's much less likely there would be a ban on black baseball players in the '20s & '30s (whenever it was...), so Moses & Welday Walker might be first of many. It follows, then, blacks might be allowed in all sports much sooner than OTL. It's also possible Native players in baseball (& by extension all sports) would happen a great deal sooner than OTL. Less racial tension generally as a result?

(Also, FYI Wilcox, the pop of Cincy would not be anything like so high in 1862. WP has the police force in 1853 a grand total of seven officers, of whom they didn't even appoint a chief until years later.:rolleyes:)
 
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So Wilcoxchar, are you going to get into some wild west stuff? And what's going on with the plains tribes? Also, you might have mention this (so sorry), but how are relations between California and the Natives within it's borders?

And my final question, what's going to happen to Alaska?
Been trying to think about what happens to the plains tribes actually. For now they're simply hanging out in the less settled areas of Dakhota, Pembina, Itasca, and Kearny, but there will be some clashes as more people migrated to those areas. The Lee administration will have to deal with them in some way, I'm sure.

California has taken a sort of policy of ignorance for its natives in Cañon and San Isidro. The area's Californio settlement is concentrated enough on the Gila, Colorado, and Rio Bravo that they don't worry much about native incursions.

On Alaska, for now it stays in Russian hands. I have an update planned on Russia in general where I'll say more about what's been going on there.

This is actually a persistent myth. Lincoln was a top-grade corporate litigator. He affected a "down-home" style, but he was no rube.

Actually, from what I've heard/read (by no means extensive, but look at Team of Rivals), he wanted to be Pres from very early on.

My preference would be no Prohibition at all. Which has serious butterflies for the formation of organized crime.
Well, Lincoln would be 20 at the time of the POD, and he did participate in the 1872 Republican primary ITTL. But there doesn't seem to be much OTL precedent for a Supreme Court Justice running for public office except for Salmon P. Chase.

Also, I'm leaning toward no Prohibition as well, or at least not of alcohol.

(Also, FYI Wilcox, the pop of Cincy would not be anything like so high in 1862. WP has the police force in 1853 a grand total of seven officers, of whom they didn't even appoint a chief until years later.:rolleyes:)
The US census historical statistics have Cincinnati at 161k in 1860, so I don't think an increase of 10,000 is out of the question.
 
Also, I'm leaning toward no Prohibition as well, or at least not of alcohol.

No prohibition would be great! Not sure what it would be about if not alcohol; hard drugs are obviously banned as IOTL (I find it hard for any TL to have them as legal) and tobacco doesn't seem likely to be banned until medical research comes along. Only MJ would be the alternative but I find it hard for it to reach such a popularity that a federal prohibition is placed.

I'd like to see what you come up with. It would be interesting to have some states go dry, lets say the midwest and Upper South (maybe the Pacific states as well) while New England and the Gulf don't. Interstate smuggling and crime would evolve in a rather interesting way.
 
The Undisclosed Adventures of Theodore Roosevelt #3: The Cape Colony Caper
Before we get into Lee's presidency, it's time to see what Teddy's been up to lately. :D

The Undisclosed Adventures of Theodore Roosevelt, Episode 3: The Cape Colony Caper

Roosevelt sat on the stage facing the Indian Ocean in the central plaza of the Voortrekker city of Tulbagh[1]. He was flanked, as always on foreign visits, by Vice President Taft and Secretary of the Interior Muir. A man was at the podium addressing a local crowd, but not many of the visiting dignitaries were listening.

"What are we all the way here for again?" Taft leaned over and whispered to Roosevelt.

"We are here to accept a gift of a very large diamond from the Voortrekker Republic to the Poinsettian Institution and the United States as a whole!" Roosevelt hissed. "Now be quiet." Taft straightened himself in his chair and resumed his bored expression.

His thoughts now interrupted by Taft, Roosevelt began listening to the speech being given by Stephanus Willem Pretorius, president of the Zuid-Afrikaanishe Republiek. "The discovery of diamonds and other precious metals in the Colesberg mines has brought a great wealth to the ZAR, but it has also brought antagonization from the British Empire and the Cape Colony in particular. We thank the United States for supporting the ZAR from its birth and showing its continued support in diplomatic forums."

Pretorius switched from the Dutch dialect spoken by the Voortrekkers and turned toward the American delegation. "It is with a great honor and pleasure that I present to the dignitaries from the United States, the Star of Africa diamond! Pretorius pulled a rope and lifted a curtain over a glass case.

The crowd gasped. Roosevelt peered at the case, which had nothing in it. Pretorius turned. "What? The Star of Africa is gone! Someone must have stolen it!"

Roosevelt looked at Muir and whispered to him. "Who would steal that diamond?"

Muir replied, "Well, it was supposed to be almost 100 carats, so it would be worth a lot of money to anyone who could take it. We should start looking to see who got close enough to the displa-"

A crash littered the stage with splinters of wood and an automobile drove onto the stage. A pale-faced young man with dark hair and a beard stepped out of the vehicle and showed the crowd the diamond. "I am taking what rightfully belongs to me, Pretorius. This was dug out of Cape land and all precious metals found in the Cape Colony belong to Norton Industries, and you know that." Just as quickly, the man stepped back into the vehicle and it drove off the other end of the stage and off toward the harbor.

Roosevelt stood up and walked over to Pretorius. "Who was that man?" Roosevelt asked.

"That man, if he is qualified to be referred to as such, is Edward Norton, head of Norton Industries. I recognized the coat of arms on the side of the automobile as the logo of their auto division." Pretorius said, his voice firm and eyes now piercing with rage.

Roosevelt turned to Muir. "We have to catch him and retrieve the diamond!" Muir nodded. Roosevelt turned back to Pretoris. "Do you know where he will be headed?"

"Back to Cape Town, for sure. To give the Star of South Africa to the British government most likely." Pretorius spat.

"Muir and I will take care of Norton and get the diamond back," Roosevelt said.

"Mostly him," Muir added.

He looked over his shoulder. "Ummm, what should we do about Vice President Taft here?" Muir pointed his thumb back at Taft, who was fast asleep in his chair.

"Leave him there," Roosevelt laughed heartily, baring his teeth[2]. "I'm sure Mr. Pretorius can entertain him while we're gone." Roosevelt and Muir walked toward the Tulbagh docks to catch a ship to Cape Town.


They boarded a ship and reached Cape Town that night. The next morning, Roosevelt and Muir began to look for where Norton might have taken the Star of South Africa.

Roosevelt pondered Norton's next move. "My instinct says that he would take it to one of the Norton Industries buildings here in Cape Town. He's probably wants to put the diamond in safe keeping somewhere."

"Look!" Muir shouted, examining a local newspaper. "There is a automobile exposition at the Norton Auto Company headquarters today. It says the Norton will be attending and giving a presentation."

Roosevelt nodded. "That's a start. We'd better get over there right away. If he is stashing the diamond at the NAC building, it may only be temporary. We need to get over there as quick as possible!" They left the hotel they were staying and caught a carriage to the headquarters.


The Norton Auto Company[3] building was a four story complex in the style of the houses built by the Dutch during their stay in Cape Town. It was rather unassuming as a corporate headquarters in its facade, aside from the giant Norton coat of arms adapted for the auto division of Norton Industires plastered high in the center of the facade. Roosevelt and Muir entered the complex around the main building and stepped into a large oval racetrack laid with brick and automobiles of all sorts beside the track.

"Excuse me sirs, please take your seats," an usher came up to them and pointed toward a set of rising benches set away from the track. "Mister Norton is about to give his opening speech to begin the ceremonies." Roosevelt and Muir took a seat in the front row of benches.

While they waited, Roosevelt and Muir spotted several premier auto industry heads as they were preparing their machines for the race. No American autos were represented in the race, but Belgian Paul de Caters of De Caters Motors[4], Otto Daimler and Wilhelm Maybach of Preussicher Motor Werke, and even Sir Arthur Wolseley of Wolseley Motor Company, the oldest auto company in the British Empire.

After half an hour, more people had arrived and the benches were almost full. A man stood at a podium set up in the center of the racetrack and announced the beginning of the ceremonies before the race. "To begin, a speech from the man who made this all possible. I give you, president of the Norton Auto Company, Edward Norton!" The man moved aside as Norton strode up to the podium.

"Good day everyone." Norton began speaking to the crowd. "It is my pleasure to welcome you to this spectacular event. Today you will see specially built automobiles by many of the world's leading manufacturers race for a prize of ten thousand pounds." Norton kept talking as he explained the rules of the race and introduced the drivers and their representative companies.

Roosevelt became bored as Norton droned on, but Muir suddenly nudged the President to attention. "Look, at the trophy that Norton is holding." Roosevelt looked, and there in the trophy he saw the Star of Africa. "We have to get it," Muir whispered. "But how?"

Roosevelt looked around. There were a few guards at the entrance to the track and in the rear of the stands. "I could just go up there and take it."

"Why must you always opt for the brute force approach. Don't you know that almost never-" Muir started, but Roosevelt was already charging off toward the podium, fending off a burly guard as he marched forward. Muir sighed, and stood up.

Roosevelt reached the track and began yelling at Norton, who had stopped his speech because of the commotion. "I know you have the diamond Norton! Give it back and you won't get hurt!"

"Oh, you mean this?" Norton pried the diamond from the trophy and sneered. "Well you'll have to catch me first." Norton ran off the stage and suddenly an auto came zooming from behind the stage. It stopped on the track. Norton turned toward Roosevelt and laughed. "You like? I call it the Mayhem. You won't catch me now, I designed this auto specifically for speed. I'm aiming to set the world speed record after a little more work, but this will give it a good test run. Ta-ta!" Norton gave Roosevelt a mock salute and sped off along the track and out the gate into the streets.

"We have to follow him." Roosevelt turned amid the now confused crowd of spectators and drivers, looking for Muir. First I need an auto, and where is Muir?"

"You rang, Mister President?" Muir sped up in the De Caters racer. "Hop in."

Roosevelt stepped into the racer and Muir began driving after Norton. They sped through the streets of Cape Town, veering around sharp corners as Norton tried to lose them. As Norton drove through a quieter part of the city, Roosevelt got out a rifle and stood up in the seat.

"What are you doing, Theodore?" Muir asked with concern.

"I'm going to try and blast Norton's wheels out. That should stop him." Roosevelt took aim and fired. A cloud of dust rose up from next to the rear right wheel of Norton's auto. Norton swerved along the streets, bumping over the cobble stones. Roosevelt sat back down in the seat. "Damn, missed. Let's just follow him for now and see where he goes."

Muir slowed the De Caters and stayed behind Norton but at a greater distance. Norton also slowed, and began driving up into a hilly area of Cape Town. Muir followed Norton up one inclined street. The autos creaked and bumped at each block as the intersections broke the street into a series of inclines and flat roadway

After driving uphill for six blocks, Norton turned left at an intersection onto a level street. Muir followed and Roosevelt stood to get another shot from his rifle. Crack! Ding. The bullet bounced off the back of Norton's auto, putting a dent in the metal. Norton heard the shot hit his auto and began to speed up. At the next intersection, sped through but Muir had to quickly pull the brake lever to stop the auto from crashing into a passing trolley car.

"Damnit!" Roosevelt swore as they slowed to a stop. After the trolley passed, Muir sped to catch up with Norton. After another two blocks, Norton turned left again and began heading downhill. "Look! He's turning there." Roosevelt pointed. Muir nodded and turned at the same place where Norton had.

Both autos now sped up as they went downhill and both Norton and Muir were stepping on the accelerator pedal. As each auto passed an intersection at these speeds, they were propelled into the air slightly and landed with a thud as the steel springs compressed under the weight of the auto. Norton's auto jumped, Muir's followed close behind and did the same. Another intersection, another short jump. At the next intersection, Norton abruptly slowed his vehicle and skidded into a right turn. Muir followed. Norton went two more blocks and turned left again. Muir turned as well.

Another two blocks and Norton turned right yet again. This time after one block, Norton turned back left onto another downhill street. Muir continued chased Norton downhill, being careful not to jump at the intersections and wear out the suspension more. Norton did catch air crossing these intersections, and after three blocks, turned onto a rough dirt track, kicking up dust as Muir followed.


Muir drove along the dirt road as it sloped upward. Muir coughed and shielded his eyes. "I can't see the road ahead for the life of me because of all the dirt and dust Norton is kicking up". After Norton made a sudden turn, Muir lost control of the De Caters and accidentally drove it up an embankment where it stalled.

"Blast!" Roosevelt spouted. The President stood up in his seat as the auto rolled to a halt. "We've lost him."

"Oh no we didn't," Muir said slyly as a smile crept onto his face. "That road only goes to one place. The top of Table Mountain." Muir pointed ominously up the road. As the dust cleared, it revealed the famous mesa that overlooks all of Cape Town.

Muir got the De Caters back onto the dirt track and sped up the road toward the top of Table Mountain. Roosevelt and Muir reached the flat top of the mountain and halted the racer next to Norton's. The President got out and found chased Norton to the edge of the cliff of the mountain overlooking the South Atlantic. The waves crashed into the rocks below as Norton looked over the edge.

"It seems that you have gotten me into a corner, eh, Roosevelt." Norton jeered.

"Indeed I have." Roosevelt said, his eyes glaring behind his pince-nez. "Now hand over the diamond and you won't get hurt."

"Oh, you mean this diamond?" Norton pulled the Star of Africa out of his coat. He held it over the edge of the cliff. "If I and the Cape Colony can't have what's rightfully ours, then nobody can! One step closer and the diamond goes into the sea!" Norton smiled devilishly. "You're out of options, Mister President."

Roosevelt grimaced. Then suddenly, he had an idea and chuckled. He put a hand in his coat. "You seem to have forgotten one trick I still have up my sleeve." Sunlight glinted off Roosevelt's pince-nez as he drew the grappling hook from his coat and shot it at Norton. Norton was shocked and dropped the diamond, believing that Roosevelt had just shot a pistol at him. The grappling hook caught the diamond in midair and pulled it back to Roosevelt.

The diamond now in safe hands, Roosevelt stepped forward toward Norton. Norton took a step back and looked down as he realized his right heel was now hanging over the edge of the cliff. Roosevelt walked up to Norton and glared at him. "Now then, what do we do with you?" Roosevelt looked menacingly at Norton.

"You- you wouldn't dare!" Norton now looked meek as he stuttered. His eyes darted to Muir as he was standing by the De Caters. Roosevelt hesitated.

Norton's eyes flashed and he pulled a pisto from another pocket in his coat and pointed it at the President's chest. "You really expect me to give up this easily? You push me off the cliff, I take you with me."

Roosevelt looked down at the gun and realized the gun was pointed straight at the pocket that held his speech for the ceremony at the ZAR and his glasses case. Maybe not enough protection to stop the bullet from entering his body, but it was likely ample enough to prevent serious damage.

Roosevelt looked Norton straight in the face and shrugged. "I can deal with a few bullets to the chest."

Norton faltered at Roosevelt's confidence. "What?" Norton yelled. "This is madness!"

For a few moments, Norton and Roosevelt stood on the edge of the cliff. Both men's eyes were locked on to each other.

After a few breaths, Norton regained his composure and was again talking steadily. "No one can take a pistol shot from point blank range and live! What makes you think you can?"

Roosevelt brought his right hand up to adjust the brim of his up. "Beacuse, I'm the President of the United States." In one motion, his hand balled into a fist and ploughed into Norton's face. As Norton started tumbling over the cliff, Roosevelt's left hand caught him by his shirt. The pistol fell from Norton's hand over the cliff, splashing down into the waters below.

Muir rushed over and helped Roosevelt pull Norton up and lay him on the ground. Norton was out cold after Roosevelt's punch. "So, what should we do with him now?" Muir asked. Roosevelt pondered this question and finally came up with a course of action.

The two men dragged Norton and slumped him in the driver's seat of his own racer. They positioned Norton so he was leaning on the steering wheel in order to explain the face wound. Then, Roosevelt and Muir got back in the De Caters and drove back down the road they had come up on. Roosevelt took the diamond out of his coat and admired it. "You know Muir, this will make a fine addition to the Poinsettian Institution."

"Indeed it will, Mister President. Indeed it will."

[1] OTL Durban
[2] I'm thinking like in this picture.
[3] Cape Town is much more developed than in OTL. I wonder why that could be. ;)
[4] Known in America in TTL as Decatur Motors.
 

Onyx

Banned
Yep, cant wait for Ivan and Mecha-Alexander

But I swear, if you make Russia turn and become a Third World/Anarchist/Fascist/Civil War torn and destroyed state that got predominately owned by the Ottomans/Prussians/Austrians (Like every other freakin TL in this site).......

1284585880724.jpg
 
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