Union and Liberty: An American TL

[phx1138]

Aha! Thanks for reminding me, I'd been thinking about how western Canada would develop but forgot about it after a while. Doing a little searching, it looks like Fort Simpson will become the major Pacific port in British North America instead of OTL Vancouver, which could mean that the railway generally starts sloping north after Winnipeg and goes by Saskatoon. I'm thinking that the railroad would partially follow the York Factory Express, probably from Fort Assiboine eastward to around where Saskatoon is. Taking a quick look at an elevation map, the best way for the railroad west of the Rockies would probably be going from Fort Simpson up the Nass and Babine valleys then over to along the Fraser and over the Rockies to where Jasper is. Does that sound reasonable, from a Canadian's perspective? Mostly some quick brainstorming here.

Offhand, I'd say *Vancouver's still the major port, after *L.A. & *S.F. (&/or *San Diego; I'm not sure which of them is transshipping the most freight). TTL's Ft Simpson strikes me the likely major WCoast *Canadian port, not least because it would be the railhead, as Vancouver was OTL. (I'm less sure it's as favorable for weather: i.e., is it icefree year round?) If you look at the current railway route (Prince Rupert-Edmonton-Saskatoon-Winnipeg), that's pretty much where Fleming intended it til worry over U.S. incursion led to a move south, thru Regina & Calgary.

The locations of Edmonton & Saskatoon TTL would change slightly, but probably not a lot; OTL Edmonton was the other side of the river from the first settlement, 'cause the railway camped the other side... Saskatoon was settled quite late (1885, IIRC), so it's on a good location for whoever picks it. More likely IMO are cities on much the same sites (so close you'd need GPS to notice movement of city center), with different names. Also possible you'd butterfly North Battleford; IIRC, it was another "Edmonton", with a second settlement across the river, so you have only Battleford. (Again, likely a different name.) FYI, it was territorial capital before Regina, & IIRC, an HBC fort for over a century before that.

As for the political divisions, I'd suggest splitting the OTL NWT in more provinces. Not because it is good for the West (it assuredly isn't), but because the central government would gain politically, by making it harder for the West to unify against Central Canada. I'd also be curious to see OTL Ottawa & Quebec subdivided, & to see what the effect would be of dividing the Prairies E-W instead of N-S. It's been said E-W, with capitals further north (Battleford & points north), would benefit northern communities by attracting money, & (more important, probably) political attention where there's little or none now.

The 52 border is only in Oregon (British Columbia)...

I noticed that later...

Canada (Quebec) and Acadia (New Bruinswick+Nova Scotia) have already been made separate dominions after the Oregon war.

I wouln't entirely rule out a Confederation of dominions in any case. The potential for U.S. annexation may even be stronger TTL, something I'd think a more-hostile Britain would want to avoid. There's also the prospect of dominions getting in severe financial trouble, which was a reason for Newfoundland being joined to Canada in '49 OTL. There's also an issue for Britain of being able to draw on *Canadian manpower in TTL's WW1 & WW2, presuming these still happen, as well as *Canadian manufacturing in WW2.

 

[Eurofed]

Bohemia and Moravia were separate divisions within the Austrian Empire, and in the war Prussia did not want to be seen as taking too much land so they did not take all the Czech lands.

Unplausible. The Czech lands were seen as a political unity even back then, even if the Austrians split them in different administrations. If the Prussians are annexing Bohemia, to take or not to take Moravia is not going to make that much difference in the eyes of Europe.

In the ensuing chaos, the romanticist idea of Moravian nationalism that had also surfaced briefly during the Midcentury Revolutions took hold in a small portion of the population, and a few people took advantage of this to create and independent state.

In other words, a state with a pathetically weak power base that a few Prussian troops would have easily swept away during the war, creating a fait accompli for annexation at the peace table. It does not stand to reason that they did not so.

 

[othyrsyde]

Well Wilcoxchar, you weren't kidding when you said the war would be covered quicker. I imagine if there's another Great European War, that it won't go down exactly like WWI, since the powers of this TL have an idea of how ariel and trench warfare works. Less of tactics needing to catch up to the tech.

 

[wilcoxchar]

Offhand, I'd say *Vancouver's still the major port, after *L.A. & *S.F. (&/or *San Diego; I'm not sure which of them is transshipping the most freight). TTL's Ft Simpson strikes me the likely major WCoast *Canadian port, not least because it would be the railhead, as Vancouver was OTL. (I'm less sure it's as favorable for weather: i.e., is it icefree year round?) If you look at the current railway route (Prince Rupert-Edmonton-Saskatoon-Winnipeg), that's pretty much where Fleming intended it til worry over U.S. incursion led to a move south, thru Regina & Calgary.

The locations of Edmonton & Saskatoon TTL would change slightly, but probably not a lot; OTL Edmonton was the other side of the river from the first settlement, 'cause the railway camped the other side... Saskatoon was settled quite late (1885, IIRC), so it's on a good location for whoever picks it. More likely IMO are cities on much the same sites (so close you'd need GPS to notice movement of city center), with different names. Also possible you'd butterfly North Battleford; IIRC, it was another "Edmonton", with a second settlement across the river, so you have only Battleford. (Again, likely a different name.) FYI, it was territorial capital before Regina, & IIRC, an HBC fort for over a century before that.

As for the political divisions, I'd suggest splitting the OTL NWT in more provinces. Not because it is good for the West (it assuredly isn't), but because the central government would gain politically, by making it harder for the West to unify against Central Canada. I'd also be curious to see OTL Ottawa & Quebec subdivided, & to see what the effect would be of dividing the Prairies E-W instead of N-S. It's been said E-W, with capitals further north (Battleford & points north), would benefit northern communities by attracting money, & (more important, probably) political attention where there's little or none now.

Looked around a bit and it looks like Fort Simpson is ice-free year round, since Juneau and Prince Rupert harbors are. On the divisions of Canada in TTL, I haven't thought about it much. I could see Ontario being divided with the northwest bit becoming part of another division, but not sure about Quebec. The Prairies, maybe, but the Mormon region will likely want to get its own province so something like Manitoba will probable exist.

Unplausible. The Czech lands were seen as a political unity even back then, even if the Austrians split them in different administrations. If the Prussians are annexing Bohemia, to take or not to take Moravia is not going to make that much difference in the eyes of Europe.

In other words, a state with a pathetically weak power base that a few Prussian troops would have easily swept away during the war, creating a fait accompli for annexation at the peace table. It does not stand to reason that they did not so.

And is that any more implausible than the Banat Republic, the Odessa Soviet Republic, or the Don Republic being independent in the aftermath of WWI? I never said that the Moravian Republic would last very long, just that it was recognized as a stable government in the area at the conference.

 

[Eurofed]

And is that any more implausible than the Banat Republic, the Odessa Soviet Republic, or the Don Republic being independent in the aftermath of WWI? I never said that the Moravian Republic would last very long, just that it was recognized as a stable government in the area at the conference.

Oh well, if it is going to be that short-lived, I'm much more forgiving of the issue.

 

[wilcoxchar]

Oh well, if it is going to be that short-lived, I'm much more forgiving of the issue.

Yeah, having a post-WWI chaotic situation I decided to indulge in some of the more whimsical country ideas I had. You'll see this when I return to what's happening in the region.

 

[Eurofed]

Yeah, having a post-WWI chaotic situation I decided to indulge in some of the more whimsical country ideas I had. You'll see this when I return to what's happening in the region.

OK, if it is that kind of situation, I'll try and keep my anti-Balkanization urges in check for a while, since chaos in the map of Europe is not going to last.

 

[phx1138]

...along the Platte, Kanza[1], and Arkansaw rivers...
The Issue of Slavery:
With the incorporation of the western territories into the nation, the debate over the expansion of slavery intensified in Congress. Cuba was admitted as a slave state, making the balance in Congress nineteen slave states to seventeen free states. While this balance seemed to favor slavery in the territories, the senators of Missouri and Delaware were divided on the issue as European immigrants came to those states and the urban population increased. This created a deadlock on slavery legislation for much of Scott's presidency.

However, there was another reason for this deadlock. Up until 1851, most of the bills that had been proposed were to decide the issue for the entire Unorganized Territory, with a few proposing the border between free and slave states extend west from the northern border of Missouri or at the 42nd parallel north. With the division of the territory, it became possible to decide on each territory individually. With the epxansion of New Mexico Territory and the many settlers coming from Tejas and Houston, slavery was allowed in the territory.

But with the uncertainty of whether the United States would gain California or any territory south of the Rio Bravo, the Missouri Compromise that was passed in 1820 was brought into review. This brought the possiblity of slavery into both Kearny and Dakhota Territory. While there was not much doubt over whether Dakhota would become a free territory, Kearny Territory presented an opportunity for the southern states to gain the concessions they had been looking for. The dispute over Calhoun Territory would not be resolved during Scott's administration, and the resolution of the dispute would bring much animosity between the northern and southern states.

I see one flaw, here. As I understood the Missouri Compromise, every slave state would be balanced by a free state (or, rather, vice versa), so TTL the balance should be 19-19, or at worst 19-18 (slave-free) or 20-19 (free-slave).

I also have a question about TTL's Kansas-Nebraska Act. If I read you correctly (& if I'm not already so far behind it's irrelevant...), you're going to get a "Bleeding Kearny" TTL. I also wonder why the *Mason-Dixon Line TTL is at 42 N. (Since I have no idea why it was at 36.5 OTL, I wouldn't venture a guess.)

You haven't said (as far as I've gotten...) if there's a Gold Rush in California, which IIRC was a major factor in the need to decide the issue. With the border further north in *BC, could be you get something like the OTL Frazer River or Barkerville Rush sooner TTL. This will tend to pull population even further north, making the problem appear much worse to Southrons...

Also, I just had a thought about Ft Simpson. As OTL, it would be big in fishing & forestry, but could also be a significant whaling port. (IDK if it was OTL.) This could help attract railway; it not, the railway would certainly help with economic expansion. It also offers opportunities for trade with Japan & China, in particular the tea trade to Britain. (Recall the Tea Express trains, or whatever they were called.)

On the political divisions, I'm not fanatic about it, just offering some thoughts. Like this or this.

BTW, I am liking this quite a bit. Except your state names, some of which I wanted to use, dammit.

 

[tubby.twins]

BTW, I am liking this quite a bit. Except your state names, some of which I wanted to use, dammit.

I actually like the different state names used here. It's interesting to see different timelines explore the various possibilities.

 

[wilcoxchar]

I see one flaw, here. As I understood the Missouri Compromise, every slave state would be balanced by a free state (or, rather, vice versa), so TTL the balance should be 19-19, or at worst 19-18 (slave-free) or 20-19 (free-slave).

This is true, and it was assumed that after the admission of Cuba a free state would be established to balance the states. However, before another free state was established, the Missouri Compromise was brought into review because the South realized that they were going to be outnumbered in the long run.

I also have a question about TTL's Kansas-Nebraska Act. If I read you correctly (& if I'm not already so far behind it's irrelevant...), you're going to get a "Bleeding Kearny" TTL. I also wonder why the *Mason-Dixon Line TTL is at 42 N. (Since I have no idea why it was at 36.5 OTL, I wouldn't venture a guess.)

You've got it. There is a sort of "Bleeding Kearny" that erupts later. And those were only proposals to move the Mason-Dixon line to 42 N.

You haven't said (as far as I've gotten...) if there's a Gold Rush in California, which IIRC was a major factor in the need to decide the issue. With the border further north in *BC, could be you get something like the OTL Frazer River or Barkerville Rush sooner TTL. This will tend to pull population even further north, making the problem appear much worse to Southrons...

There is a gold rush in California later. And I didn't know about the gold rushes in BC. I'll have to fit them in somewhere.

Also, I just had a thought about Ft Simpson. As OTL, it would be big in fishing & forestry, but could also be a significant whaling port. (IDK if it was OTL.) This could help attract railway; it not, the railway would certainly help with economic expansion. It also offers opportunities for trade with Japan & China, in particular the tea trade to Britain. (Recall the Tea Express trains, or whatever they were called.)

On the political divisions, I'm not fanatic about it, just offering some thoughts. Like this or this.

BTW, I am liking this quite a bit. Except your state names, some of which I wanted to use, dammit.

Huh, I didn't know about the CPR's role in the Chinese tea trade, interesting. With Britain forming friendly relations with Japan earlier and having a larger chunk of the Malay Peninsula, the railway will definitely be seeing a lot of tea traffic.

 

[wilcoxchar]

Got this update done surprisingly fast last night, so here it is. I couldn't think of how to connect the two sections in the title though.

Part Sixty: The Plight of the Irish

The Irish Diaspora:
Throughout the 19th century, the Ulster Irish and Catholic Irish made up one of the primary sources of immigrants to the United States. The Ulster Irish came from northern Ireland and were usually Calvinist or Anglican, and often had more Scottish ancestry than Irish. The Ulster Irish mostly came to the United States in the 18th century and early 19th cenutry, settling primarily in the northern United States. In the 19th cenutry, many Ulster Irish contributed to the growth of the steel industry in the north and led to the prosperity of cities like Pittsburgh and Indianapolis.

After the National War, however, the majority of immigration to the United States from Ireland came from the Catholic communities in the rest of the island. The mass emigration of the Catholic Irish from Ireland largely began during the Great Famine and the European Wars, but the British government began to encourage Irish resettlement outside the British Isles in the following decades and gradually Anglicization of Ireland through epuration[1] and encouraging the movement of people from England and Scotland to Ireland. The squalid conditions in Ireland during and after the Great Famine and the encouragement of Catholics to leave Ireland created a large Irish diaspora in the late 19th century.

Besides the large urban center in the northern United States like New York and Chicago, the Catholic Irish immigration to the United States in the latter 19th century also centered around areas that already had a sizable Catholic community. For this reason, large Irish communities arose in Batlimore, Cuba, and New Orleans. From New Orleans, the Irish community spread up the Mississippi River and into Saint Louis. The large Irish communities would turn American politics further against the British as the turn of the century passed.

Aside from the United States, the exodus of Catholics from Ireland also led to Irish immigration in other areas. Irish immigration to Ontario and the majority Scottish areas in Acadia combined with a revival in Gaelic language and culture led to Gaelic becoming the largest language spoken in British North America by 1900. Outside of North America, many Irish Catholics migrated to Chile, Argentina, and the Cape Colony in southern Africa. Chile, with a history of encouraging Irish Catholic immigration extending from colonial times, welcomed Irish immigrants. Many of the Irish who went to Chile raised livestock and helped settle the far south of the country in Patagonia and along the Straits of Magellan.


A Natural Born Citizen:
The rising levels of immigration to the United States in the 19th century led to some major questions in Congress and the Supreme Court regarding the status of the country's growing population. The 1873 ruling in the Supreme Court that all people born in the United States became American citizens set the stage for official rulings on when a person became a United States citizen. However, there was also another citizenship issue that came to prominence in the decade after the National War; eligibility for the Executive Office of the United States.

The first section of Article Two of the Constitution states that only "natural born citizens" are eligible for the Presidency of the United States, and the Twelfth Amendment extends this restriction to the Vice Presidency. With more and more first-generation immigrants getting into Congress, the question of what exactly was meant by "natural born citizen" and whether to allow naturalized citizens to be eligible for the Presidency or Vice Presidency increasingly became an issue in the House and Senate.

In 1871, senators Carl Shurz of Missouri[2] and Antonio Seguin from Tejas[3] introduced a constitutional amendment that would enable foreign-born citizens to hold an Executive Office. The amendment had some support within the Senate, but the general nativist sentiment among Congress at the time prevented the amendment's passage. Some senators also raised questions about the motives for the amendment, saying that Schurz was only proposing the amendment so he could be eligible for the presidency, since he was born in Germany. While the Schurz Amendment failed, it laid the groundwork for future attempts at passing similar amendments.

[1] From the French for 'purging', basically ethnic cleansing, although I'm unsure of the details of it in Ireland yet. I didn't think the OTL term should be used since it wasn't really in use until the 1990s.
[2] OTL the first German-American senator
[3] Grandson of Juan Seguin

 

[GreatScottMarty]

perhaps with the greater ethnic diversity of your US we will see a non-WASP President far sooner then OTL's 1960s? Interesting to see this moving quickly and across racial lines. I see the Liberty party of you TL is shaping up nice

 

[jycee]

Gaelic as a surviving language in North America and a Seguin political dynasty!! Awesome.

As GreatScott posted I think ITTL could easily get a non WASP president early on. You could probably get an white Catholic in the 1940s and a hispanic Catholic in the 60s. Because of Cuba, Tejas, and the increased Irish immigration it is likely that anti-Catholic sentiment is not as high IITL since the Americans have gotten more sued to being and living with Catholics.

The language diversity in British North America could further hinder the possibilities of a unified Canada, which I highly doubt will happen ITTL and a pro-US Irish Canada might demand full independence at some point. (But like California I hope it does not get annexed and simply develops into a nation of its own flavor).

Great update Wilcox

 

[wilcoxchar]

Looking at my notes and the tentative list of presidents I've got, we definitely will see Catholic and non-white presidents before OTL.

 

[phx1138]

This is true, and it was assumed that after the admission of Cuba a free state would be established to balance the states. However, before another free state was established, the Missouri Compromise was brought into review because the South realized that they were going to be outnumbered in the long run.

Ah. Clearer. TYVM.

You've got it.

Naturally. I'm a genius.

I didn't know about the gold rushes in BC. I'll have to fit them in somewhere.

FYI, there's three significant ones before you get to the Yukon, which is the real biggie, then Alaska, which is smaller. Depending on how you go at it (i.e., how your prospectors go in), you might also get strikes in the Black Hills & near *Denver, minerals in *SD/ND/MT/BC, & oil finds from *Leduc to about *Moose Jaw. OTL, the inland & northern finds are later, as prospectors move off the exhausted veins.

Huh, I didn't know about the CPR's role in the Chinese tea trade, interesting. With Britain forming friendly relations with Japan earlier and having a larger chunk of the Malay Peninsula, the railway will definitely be seeing a lot of tea traffic.

Yep, it was a fairly big deal for a few years, anyhow. (How long, IDK; I don't have a source in front of me...) It got absolute priority, & ran flat out & highballing from Vancouver to Toronto. And the value of the freight was fairly incredible, IIRC. AFAIK, it was never stopped or threatened; TTL, picture Butch & Sundance (or, better still, Bill Miner) pulling off the Royal Mail robbery. (If they pulled it off, they could buy Bolivia.) As I think about it, tho, it may have been silk that was the precious cargo. Either way...

 

[phx1138]

The goldrush has somehow been delayed but once it gets started California can become quite rich and powerful.

Even moreso, given an influx of Chinese & Japanese; recall how industrious the early immigrants were. They were not, however, terribly welcome AFAIK...

But seeing California become unstable because of religious ethnic and immigrant issues would also be quite interesting. (You have a white Protestant north, a Mormon east, a hispanic Catholic south, and a large influx of Asians along the coasts). My guess is that at the moment Hispanic Catholics are still the majority due to immigration from Mexico. A balkanized California is possible as well.

Very interesting. One other factor to consider: Japan, somewhat later, invested quite substantially in Baja & Mexico. You might see this encouraged, & earlier, resulting in more-friendly U.S.-Japan relations, & no 1907 Exclusion Act. You might also, a trifle earlier, see U.S. mediation in the Sino-Japanese War, instead of the Dreibund, & so more friendly ROC-Japan relations 1895-1931... (This has serious potential butterflies for the Russo-Japanese War.) Enough for a Sino-Japanese Alliance? For the U.S. not to pressure Britain to end the Anglo-Japanese Naval Treaty? No Pacific War? Or a 2d Russo-Japanese/North Asian War (with ROC allied to Japan)?

 

[wilcoxchar]

Update time! I'll post the election results in a few days. Feel free to speculate.

Part Sixty-One: The 1872 Election

Election of 1872:
As Fremont's presidency began drawing to a close, the Republican Party had entrenched itself in the new system of American politics. The institution of slavery had been eradicated in the United States, and the former Confederate states were steadily being readmitted to the Union. By the time the election season started, all the former Confederate states had rejoined the Union except for Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina.

While many people at the time suspected that Fremont would run for a third term as president, Fremont announced that he would not be running in early 1872. In the 1872 Republican National Convention in Chicago, the party leaders struggled to find another man as popular as Fremont who had a good national standing. Vice President David Wilmot was considered, but in the end Wilmot lost the nomination as we was "not considered popular or well known enough in the public view"[1]. Also considered were Chief Justice Abraham Lincoln, Senator Salmon P. Chase, and Winfield Representative Robert E. Lee. After five rounds of voting, Lee was named the Republican presidential candidate, with former general Ambrose Burnside the Vice Presidential candidate. Lee had gained recognition throughout the country for his loyalty to the Union and his part in the creation of the state of Vandalia, while Burnside had a good military record from the National War.

On the other hand, the 1872 election highlighted the state of disarray that the Democratic Party had fallen into after the National War as several candidates sporting a wide variety of issues vied for the Democratic nomination. Some Democrats were concerned that some former Confederate states had not been fully admitted back into the Union yet and wanted to expedite the process. The main issue at the 1872 Democratic Convention, however, was the path the post-war economy should take. One wing believed that the country should pursue protectionist trade policies to help rebuild the southern states and promote industrial growth across the country, while the other wing advocated free trade policies in support of growing businesses and opposed the minting of silver. The free trade wing was known as the "Bourbon Democrats" and won out in the convention as Samuel Tilden of New York and Henry Hastings Sibley of Itasca won the Democratic nomination.

In the general campaign, Tilden ran the more vigorous campaign in an effort to unite the Democrats and regain the dominance the Democratic Party had held in the presidency from 1853 to the start of the National War. Tilden criticized what many southerners considered Lee's overbearing role in the creation of Winfield as a political power grab. The Democratic Party's southern campaigners issued pamphlets in North Carolina, Virginia, and Chickasaw claiming that the Republicans were out to overthrow the plantation society in the southern states, just as Lee encouraged free staters to move to Winfield. Tilden also campaigned intensively on promoting free trade and lowering tariffs, cementing the issue as part of the Democratic political platform.

Lee, on the other hand, promoted the Republican triumph of outlawing slavery and praised the quick readmission of the Confederate states back into the Union. Lee also supported further settling and railroad expansion into the west. The Republican campaign slogan of "LEE Stands for Liberty, Equality, and Expansion" was popular in the cities and in the Old Northwest. When the electoral votes were counted, Lee won handily over Tilden, although the popular vote was much closer. Most of Tilden's victories in the electoral college came from the Democratic political machines like Tammany Hall in New York City and the continuing skepticism toward the Republicans in many states in the south. With Lee set to be inaugurated in March, President Fremont secured his legacy as the president who saved the Union when Georgia, Alabama, and South Carolina were readmitted to the Union on January 14, 1873.

Lee/Burnside: 206 EV
Tilden/Sibley: 98 EV

[1] In-universe quote from Republican Realignment: The Formation of the Third Party System.

 

[phx1138]

Rum is already there but if combined with agave (it cant be called tequila only Oaxaca will have the honor ITTL) it could butterfly prohibition (or a large part of it).

Does that preclude, or even create, the "drug war"? My thinking is, with more Latins in U.S., there'd also be more MJ, which the white establishment doesn't use, & so tends to prohibit... And the belief in "moral decay" from intoxicants was fairly prevalent, as I understand it.

 

[Geekhis Khan]

Does that preclude, or even create, the "drug war"? My thinking is, with more Latins in U.S., there'd also be more MJ, which the white establishment doesn't use, & so tends to prohibit... And the belief in "moral decay" from intoxicants was fairly prevalent, as I understand it.

That, or with more latins in the US earlier over a longer time (with latins more accepted ATL, as evidenced by the Seguin political dynasty) then more anglos adopting MJ for recreational use and MJ becoming a standard American recreational intoxicant alongside tobacco and alcohol.

 

[wilcoxchar]

Added in the general campaign and the results to the previous update. Congratulations on your new president, Robert E. Lee!