Union and Liberty: An American TL
- Thread starter wilcoxchar
- Start date
If all else fails, you could have the Cardinals elect a Pro-Unification Pope and then either have the two work together or compete for unification. I personally think it would be easiest to go OTL with the future of the Vatican, but it might be interesting to do otherwise.
You need to remember that the Church has a very close relationship with Rome and leaving would deal a huge blow to their prestige, as seen by the Avingon Papacy. Unless the Pope is expelled by force from Italy, he isn't leaving. The person who does this to the Church is going to suffer some major backlash.
I doubt that the Papacy would move to Pueblo. From what I remember, there was some hesitancy in the Church when dealing the with Americas. I also doubt that anyone would want the Pope moving into an unstable region.
You need to remember that the Church has a very close relationship with Rome and leaving would deal a huge blow to their prestige, as seen by the Avingon Papacy. Unless the Pope is expelled by force from Italy, he isn't leaving. The person who does this to the Church is going to suffer some major backlash.
I doubt that the Papacy would move to Pueblo. From what I remember, there was some hesitancy in the Church when dealing the with Americas. I also doubt that anyone would want the Pope moving into an unstable region.
I haven't really thought about it. There are probably some troubles going on there with the indigenous peoples, maybe Juarez can go sort that out? I do plan on Yucatan being British-influenced for some of the upcoming years.
Yeah, city-states are fun. I admit I have a tendency to make city-states too often, but Veracruz just seems to fit.A neutral Veracruz, in the good graces of both the US and Mexico can go far in the long term(and it's always interesting to see sucessful city-states).
Hmmm. Well, with the anticlericalism going on in Europe at this time, the Pope is going to have to go somewhere after Italy captures Rome. And if nowhere in Europe will accept a Pope with temporal power...
Although I could also have the Conclave elect a Pope who agrees to give up temporal power and is accepted back somewhere in Europe (maybe Rome), and have some cardinals split over the issue. They could end up in Puebla after the bishop of Tlaxcala grants them the city for a new Papacy.
I just created the Wiki page for Union and Liberty but could use some help organizing it. Still not sure how I want to arrange the timeline but having a year by year set up would help with remembering how things fit together.
http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/timelines/union_and_liberty
http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/timelines/union_and_liberty
Hey Wilcoxchar, are you still interested in those resources on Tejanos? I've been looking for books, and some internet resources; I have a few good ones, but I'm not sure how helpful they'll be without some background in Chicano Studies. So I'll try and get a list for you, that doesn't assume you've taken tons of classes on the subject. I just wish my professor hadn't died last year, his family are the definition of Tejanos (his great-great grandfather or something actually fought with Santa Anna at the Alamo), and he was a walking encyclipedia on the subject. Oh well, he taught me well.
. Oh well, he taught me well.That would be great othyrsyde! Any research would be good. Can you PM me or post a list in the next few days? Preferably internet resources or sources that can be accessed through Google Books or Google Scholar. Thanks.
Part Forty-Four: Ending Slavery in the United States
Time for a new update. Another update-as-I-go.
Part Forty-Four: Ending Slavery in the United States
Let These People Go:
Confident of a Union victory in the National War, President Fremont and the Republican Congress began implementing their policies in the United States. Along with the goal of winning the war, the Republcans began pushing for the abolition of slavery across the nation. Some states had already enacted laws to abolish slavery locally. As part of the reaction to the assassination of Samuel Houston and the secession of the states forming the Confederacy, Tejas had emancipated its slaves in 1862. Likewise, Maryland had emancipated its slaves during in early 1865 after Fremont was elected. In the new military districts that were created as more Confederate states fell to the Union, many slaves took the advantage of the Union occupation to run away to free states further north or free territories in the west. As suport for the Republican Party grew, the impetus for the United States to abolish slavery altogether was formed.
The issue of slavery was brought to the forefront of United States policy after the capture of New Orleans. In mid-October of 1865, President Fremont gave a speech in Louisville, Kentucky aimed at slaveholders in the Union, as well as the Confederate government. In the speech, Fremont called for support for the emancipation of all slaves in the United States, evoking the passage in the Declaration of Independence that 'all men are created equal' and the passage in the preamble to the Constitution that refers to securing the blessings of liberty in the United States. Fremont also appealed to Confederate President Judah P. Benjamin's Jewish heritage. In the speech, Fremont related the history of the Jews as slaves in Egypt and suggested that Benjamin do as Moses did and free the slaves in the Confederacy. One of the memorable quotes by Fremont during this speech is his statement to Benjamin to "let these people go". That statement is now one of the quotes most widely associated with the fight for emancipation. After Fremont returned to Washington in November, he and Congress passed legislation to outlaw slavery in the United States by 1870. Over the next five years, all states would free their slaves.
Defection of Cuba:
With Union troops advancing toward Mobile and Jackson rising up in revolt, similar pro-Union movements began welling up in Cuba. Some plantation owners began freeing their slaves in a protest to the continuation of the war by the Confederacy. By late November, several of the more liberal Cuban plantation owners rose up against the Confederacy with the support of the middle classes. The plantation owners all met in secret and selected Carlos Manuel de Céspedes[1] as the overall commander of the small band of rebelsm known as the Demajagueros[2]. Céspedes had been a prominent landowner in eastern Cuba prior to the National War and became disillusioned with the Confederacy after the state legislature in Havana appropriated his sugar mill to fund the war effort. During the weeks of guerrilla warfare against the Confederate forces on the island, the rebels gathered strength as other Cubans tired of the perceived neglect of Cuba by the Confederate government joined with the plantation owners. By December, the rebels had captured many major towns and ports in eastern Cuba including Camaguey, Manzanillo, and Santiago de Cuba.
In late November as news of the rebellion arrived at Augusta and Washington, the United Staes started planning an invasion of Cuba in order to hasten the fall of the Confederacy. The Union coordinated with Céspedes and the Demajagueros in where the invading forces would land, and the army was soon sent to land in the Bahia de Cárdenas. The three corps sent by the Union under the command of Major General George Lucas[3] landed on December 9th while Céspedes and his men were attacking the city of Santa Clara. While the Union soliders moved over land to capture the port city of Matanzas, the Demajagueros pushed the Confederate loyalists out of Santa Clara. Matanzas fell to the Union corps on December 12th, and the Union soldiers began moving inland and west through the valley. In Matanzas the Union gained the assistance of many free and slave Africans, which sped up the Union advance. The Union corps quickly moved west through the mountains, routing a Confederate corps at Aguacate, and arrived at the town of Nazareno on the 16th of December to plan the final assault on Habana. Céspedes and some of the Demajagueros were sent to Nazareno to coordinate the attack with Lucas.
Céspedes arrived in Nazareno on the 19th of December and a plan of attack on Habana was hammered out. Three Union ships from the Gulf Squadron, including the USS Pensacola, blockaded the port in Habana so no Confederate supplies or reinforcements would be able to enter the state capital. Céspedes and the Demajagueros he had brought with him moved north with Lucas and his soldiers toward Habana. After a four day long siege and assault, the capital was taken in the early hours of Christmas day. While the siege was a success, George Lucas did not live through it. During an attack on one of the forts in Habana, a Confederate explosive shell struck Lucas in the face and exploded. With Habana in Union hands, the state of Cuba had officially fallen, but fighting continued throughout the island for weeks later.
[1] Céspedes is an OTL figure considered the father of Cuba. He wrote the Cuban declaration of independence that began the Ten Years' War
[2] Named after La Demajagua, Céspedes's estate
[3] OTL George Lucas Hartsuff
Part Forty-Four: Ending Slavery in the United States
Let These People Go:
Confident of a Union victory in the National War, President Fremont and the Republican Congress began implementing their policies in the United States. Along with the goal of winning the war, the Republcans began pushing for the abolition of slavery across the nation. Some states had already enacted laws to abolish slavery locally. As part of the reaction to the assassination of Samuel Houston and the secession of the states forming the Confederacy, Tejas had emancipated its slaves in 1862. Likewise, Maryland had emancipated its slaves during in early 1865 after Fremont was elected. In the new military districts that were created as more Confederate states fell to the Union, many slaves took the advantage of the Union occupation to run away to free states further north or free territories in the west. As suport for the Republican Party grew, the impetus for the United States to abolish slavery altogether was formed.
The issue of slavery was brought to the forefront of United States policy after the capture of New Orleans. In mid-October of 1865, President Fremont gave a speech in Louisville, Kentucky aimed at slaveholders in the Union, as well as the Confederate government. In the speech, Fremont called for support for the emancipation of all slaves in the United States, evoking the passage in the Declaration of Independence that 'all men are created equal' and the passage in the preamble to the Constitution that refers to securing the blessings of liberty in the United States. Fremont also appealed to Confederate President Judah P. Benjamin's Jewish heritage. In the speech, Fremont related the history of the Jews as slaves in Egypt and suggested that Benjamin do as Moses did and free the slaves in the Confederacy. One of the memorable quotes by Fremont during this speech is his statement to Benjamin to "let these people go". That statement is now one of the quotes most widely associated with the fight for emancipation. After Fremont returned to Washington in November, he and Congress passed legislation to outlaw slavery in the United States by 1870. Over the next five years, all states would free their slaves.
Defection of Cuba:
With Union troops advancing toward Mobile and Jackson rising up in revolt, similar pro-Union movements began welling up in Cuba. Some plantation owners began freeing their slaves in a protest to the continuation of the war by the Confederacy. By late November, several of the more liberal Cuban plantation owners rose up against the Confederacy with the support of the middle classes. The plantation owners all met in secret and selected Carlos Manuel de Céspedes[1] as the overall commander of the small band of rebelsm known as the Demajagueros[2]. Céspedes had been a prominent landowner in eastern Cuba prior to the National War and became disillusioned with the Confederacy after the state legislature in Havana appropriated his sugar mill to fund the war effort. During the weeks of guerrilla warfare against the Confederate forces on the island, the rebels gathered strength as other Cubans tired of the perceived neglect of Cuba by the Confederate government joined with the plantation owners. By December, the rebels had captured many major towns and ports in eastern Cuba including Camaguey, Manzanillo, and Santiago de Cuba.
In late November as news of the rebellion arrived at Augusta and Washington, the United Staes started planning an invasion of Cuba in order to hasten the fall of the Confederacy. The Union coordinated with Céspedes and the Demajagueros in where the invading forces would land, and the army was soon sent to land in the Bahia de Cárdenas. The three corps sent by the Union under the command of Major General George Lucas[3] landed on December 9th while Céspedes and his men were attacking the city of Santa Clara. While the Union soliders moved over land to capture the port city of Matanzas, the Demajagueros pushed the Confederate loyalists out of Santa Clara. Matanzas fell to the Union corps on December 12th, and the Union soldiers began moving inland and west through the valley. In Matanzas the Union gained the assistance of many free and slave Africans, which sped up the Union advance. The Union corps quickly moved west through the mountains, routing a Confederate corps at Aguacate, and arrived at the town of Nazareno on the 16th of December to plan the final assault on Habana. Céspedes and some of the Demajagueros were sent to Nazareno to coordinate the attack with Lucas.
Céspedes arrived in Nazareno on the 19th of December and a plan of attack on Habana was hammered out. Three Union ships from the Gulf Squadron, including the USS Pensacola, blockaded the port in Habana so no Confederate supplies or reinforcements would be able to enter the state capital. Céspedes and the Demajagueros he had brought with him moved north with Lucas and his soldiers toward Habana. After a four day long siege and assault, the capital was taken in the early hours of Christmas day. While the siege was a success, George Lucas did not live through it. During an attack on one of the forts in Habana, a Confederate explosive shell struck Lucas in the face and exploded. With Habana in Union hands, the state of Cuba had officially fallen, but fighting continued throughout the island for weeks later.
[1] Céspedes is an OTL figure considered the father of Cuba. He wrote the Cuban declaration of independence that began the Ten Years' War
[2] Named after La Demajagua, Céspedes's estate
[3] OTL George Lucas Hartsuff
Last edited by a moderator:
Woah, that's strong stuff. The Moses referance to Benjamin and giving him a Reaganesque moment. He's gotta accept after that, right?
Suddenly we may see the name of this TL come into place. Union and Liberty.
That would be awesome if Fremont and Benjamin could oversee Reconstruction or it's equivelent together ensuring the unity of the nation without all the tension.
As for the inevitable fireeaters... well, they can all go to Vera Cruz, so even that has a safety valve.
Suddenly we may see the name of this TL come into place. Union and Liberty.
That would be awesome if Fremont and Benjamin could oversee Reconstruction or it's equivelent together ensuring the unity of the nation without all the tension.
As for the inevitable fireeaters... well, they can all go to Vera Cruz, so even that has a safety valve.
This is interesting. Although Fremont originally seemed to be a bit of a radical, he has taken a much more moderate stance than OTL. Even with a firm majority in congress (and with Lincoln in the Supreme Court).
Not forcing abolition until 1870 actually gives for opportunity for the CSA states to be readmitted and still have slavery for a few years so they can end it on their own terms individually (under the limited time).
I am really looking forward to see what is Benjamin's answer Fremont's speech and the CSA's general reaction to it as well.
Not forcing abolition until 1870 actually gives for opportunity for the CSA states to be readmitted and still have slavery for a few years so they can end it on their own terms individually (under the limited time).
I am really looking forward to see what is Benjamin's answer Fremont's speech and the CSA's general reaction to it as well.
Actually its Fremontesque
Very neat way to do that btw. How jewish Benjamin though? Practicing and all? or may this be a case of preaching to the choir?
Very neat way to do that btw. How jewish Benjamin though? Practicing and all? or may this be a case of preaching to the choir?
I don't think Veracruz would be able to take all the fireeaters. However, there's also Costa Rica and, as in OTL, Brazil to take some of the plantation owners.
Fremont and Benjamin jointly overseeing TTL's Reconstruction would be interesting, but I don't think they would be able to get along well with policy decisions.
On the abolition date, I was thinking 1866 but decided that would be too soon, so I was thinking about 1867, but wasn't sure about that either for the entire country. So I had Fremont use 1870 for the date because it was nice and round and also gives the states still in the Confederacy time to get back into the Union.
IIRC Benjamin was practicing, and took his Jewish heritage fairly seriously. Remember that Benjamin was the one who, when questioned about his Jewish heritage and the issue of slavery in the Senate in OTL, responded "It is true that I am a Jew, and when my ancestors were receiving their Ten Commandments from the immediate Deity, amidst the thundering and lightnings of Mt. Sinai, the ancestors of my opponent were herding swine in the forests of Great Britain."Actually its Fremontesque
Very neat way to do that btw. How jewish Benjamin though? Practicing and all? or may this be a case of preaching to the choir?
Thanks. Yeah, Fremont has still realized that there's still enough sympathy for the Confederates and opposition to Republican policies in some states and that he has to tread somewhat more lightly than he would otherwise.
Sorry for taking so long to reply, I am on vacation at the moment.
The difference is that in the OTL, the Pope did stay in Rome. Destroying the Papal States in Europe and destroying the Papacy in Europe are two completely different things. Instead of minor struggles among some of the populace as in OTL, you would likely see some unfortunate riots in Italy and condemnation from the nations with a Catholic majority which would not be the best start for Italy.
The Italian government realized this and offered to give the pope Lateran City. Besides, they wanted a firm control over the Pope. This didn't happen immediately because Pius IX was being an arrogant ass about the whole thing.
Regardless, getting the Pope in Mexico would be really interesting. The scenerio is a large challenge, but I think you can do it. I think you are going to need anti-clericalism to become more intense and for the Church to become very unreasonable.
Anyways, nice update. This timeline is easily one of my favorites as you put a lot of effort into this.
Minor quibble: it would be commonly accepted by the 1860s that abolishing slavery would either have to be a matter for state legislation or involve an amendment to the US Constitution. Congress has little ground on which to pass abolition. They may, however, offer to purchase slaves and then manumit them; I'm not sure whether they could effectually foreclose on the slaves under eminent domain, since Congress would still need to have pretext to regulate or seize the property in question. Of course, during the Civil War it's a bit easier to argue that slaves in the US become a matter of federal policy because the rebellion / war is being fought over slavery (more or less). Congress could therefore argue they are seizing the slaves as 'war materiel' and then using that materiel to frighten the enemy by freeing the slaves.
Thanks for giving a response. I could probably justify more intense anti-clericalism with the Midcentury Revolutions, and with what I have planned for Europe over the next few years, the Pope will probably be the least of most Euro gov'ts worries.
The abolition of slavery is still going to be done by the states themselves, Fremont and Congress have just given them a timeframe that they need to do it by. Fremont is hoping that by then, a constitutional amendment can be written up to abolish it once and for all.
That would be great othyrsyde! Any research would be good. Can you PM me or post a list in the next few days? Preferably internet resources or sources that can be accessed through Google Books or Google Scholar. Thanks.
I'll try to get that list made up, I've been pretty busy of late. I'll see what I can do about focusing on internet resources as well. I should have something for you by the weekend, Monday the latest (I'll PM it to you).
I like this timeline
Easy to keep up with updates that aren't strenuous on the eyes.
I'd love to see another map though...
Easy to keep up with updates that aren't strenuous on the eyes.
I'd love to see another map though...
I've added more to the last update. Still a bit more to come, but it's 4:30am and I want to go to bed.
I'll post a map soon, but not much has happened yet that warrants a new map.I'd love to see another map though...