Union and Liberty: An American TL

Glen

Moderator
Just to be a complete pain....why not retcon the border of Jackson such that it encompasses all of North Florida, leaving a 'Florida' territory below it?

It boggles the mind that Georgia would allow any significant Seminole presence in Northeast Florida, so I think that part at least must be in 'relatively' friendly hands. A line going from up the Suwanee to the Santa Fe River to its headwater Lake Santa Fe, then a line straight east from there to the Beach would nicely separate out North Florida (my suggestion to you for Jackson) form the rest of Florida where the Seminoles could be contained.

It's awfully late in the day for me to suggest such, but I thought I'd throw out my 2c anyway.
 
Just to be a complete pain....why not retcon the border of Jackson such that it encompasses all of North Florida, leaving a 'Florida' territory below it?

It boggles the mind that Georgia would allow any significant Seminole presence in Northeast Florida, so I think that part at least must be in 'relatively' friendly hands. A line going from up the Suwanee to the Santa Fe River to its headwater Lake Santa Fe, then a line straight east from there to the Beach would nicely separate out North Florida (my suggestion to you for Jackson) form the rest of Florida where the Seminoles could be contained.

It's awfully late in the day for me to suggest such, but I thought I'd throw out my 2c anyway.
Well, I wanted Jacksonville to be part of Florida and the Aucilla River made a better divide between the more Spanish and more English parts of Florida ITTL.
 
I need some help deciding what will happen to the Pope. Italy under Garibaldi is going to take Rome at some point in the 1860s or 1870s, and the Pope is going to have to go somewhere. I have a few ideas at the moment and would like to get some feedback.

1) The Pope could remain in Rome but have his temporal power (is that the right term?) taken away while keeping authority over the Catholic Church from within Italy.
2) Like OTL, a state is set up within Rome or somewhere else within Italy for the Pope to govern.
3) The Pope flees Italy and leads the Church from land granted to the Church by another power. Possibly Avignon in France, some Mediterranean island, or a really off-the-wall idea, Puebla in Mexico. :D
 
I need some help deciding what will happen to the Pope. Italy under Garibaldi is going to take Rome at some point in the 1860s or 1870s, and the Pope is going to have to go somewhere. I have a few ideas at the moment and would like to get some feedback.

1) The Pope could remain in Rome but have his temporal power (is that the right term?) taken away while keeping authority over the Catholic Church from within Italy.
2) Like OTL, a state is set up within Rome or somewhere else within Italy for the Pope to govern.
3) The Pope flees Italy and leads the Church from land granted to the Church by another power. Possibly Avignon in France, some Mediterranean island, or a really off-the-wall idea, Puebla in Mexico. :D

If you can make it possible, I vote for Puebla in Mexico. Not sure if it is though. However this would start a whole set of problems in the Mexican/Central American nations. Some of the more liberals might not like it. But it would be fun.

It be also interesting to see how the European Catholics might react. It be almost certain that the Catholic church splits, with the Europeans setting up a new European Papacy.

So many possibilities
 
Mexico seems a bit of a stretch to me; my random idea would be for Spain to set him up in the Balearic Islands somewhere, perhaps at Palma? Still European based, but it would be interesting if maybe over a few decades Spain lets the Pope rule the chain, a Papal Islands instead of a Papal State so to speak.
 
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Reading up on the situation in OTL, it looks like there were potential plans for the Pope to leave Rome as Sardinia-Piedmont was nearing the capture of all of the peninsula in case Victor Emmanuel decided not to let the Catholic Church operate. There were rumours that Pope Pius had assurance of political asylum in England, and that he had talked with Bismarck about setting up shop in Cologne or Fulda but Wilhelm I said no. Further rumors said that the First Vatican Council would meet somewhere outside of Rome; Malta and Trent were proposed locations.

A couple things about potential asylum-granters in TTL.

Spain: Like in OTL, Spain has been under various anti-clerical monarchs during the 19th century. Not sure they'll want to grant the Church some more sovereign land without concessions.
France: Louis Napoleon supported the Pope's right to temporal power to please the Catholic majority in the French Parliament. Not sure if this would be necessary ITTL, but it could be. So France might be accepting.
Prussia: Bismarck could be accepting of Papal asylum in order to court the southern German states toward union with Prussia. Wilhelm I could be persuaded to accept.
England: I'm not sure about England, they don't seem like they have a reason to be nice to the Church at this point. Well, except Ireland. And from what I have planned, they don't really care about being nice to Ireland. Malta could still be a possibility though.
Austria: Austria could bring in the Pope, but they're going to have much more problems than that in the near future. Perhaps they could grant the Church a nice Adriatic island somewhere?

Oh, and Pius IX still becomes Pope in the 1840s. I don't think there would be enough divergence to warrant something different.

There's also the option of Gaeta, where Pius fled in OTL during the 1848 Revolutions, or Pontecorvo, which was a Papal possession at the time. Or a piece of land that connected those two places.
 
WI France sends the Pope to the South Pacific? :D

Seriously though Mexico would be a damn cool although I think Malta is a good idea. Are the Knights Hospitalliers still running Malta at this point ( I don't remember)?
 
WI France sends the Pope to the South Pacific? :D

Seriously though Mexico would be a damn cool although I think Malta is a good idea. Are the Knights Hospitalliers still running Malta at this point ( I don't remember)?
The South Pacific would be an excellent place for the leader of the Catholic Church. :D

The Brits have Malta at this point so they would be the ones to give it to the Church.

Having the Pope set up shop in Puebla would be awesome, but I'm not sure how plausible it would be or if I could think up a good reason besides "for some reason France, Spain, Germany, Britain, nor Austria will accept him, so he goes to Mexico." Also as jycee said, I'm not sure the adherents of the world would accept the Church moving to the Americas.
 
The South Pacific would be an excellent place for the leader of the Catholic Church. :D

The Brits have Malta at this point so they would be the ones to give it to the Church.

Having the Pope set up shop in Puebla would be awesome, but I'm not sure how plausible it would be or if I could think up a good reason besides "for some reason France, Spain, Germany, Britain, nor Austria will accept him, so he goes to Mexico." Also as jycee said, I'm not sure the adherents of the world would accept the Church moving to the Americas.

France- Maybe the Catholics are less strong in the French legislature and so Louis Napoleon is under no political threat to bring the pope back to Avignon.

Spain- you said yourself is not friendly to the Church at this moment

Germany- Prussia is still Protestant and so is most of the power structure in Prussia

A-H- maybe the the Maygar nobles of Hungary object the Pope being located in Austria.

Britain- According to your plans, the Brits don't need to back the pope.

Left with no backers in Europe Benito Juarez (take your pick of Mexican leaders) backs the Pope and sets him up in Veracruz.

I still think Malta is the best. This way the Pope is backed by the British crown strongest empire in Europe and more importantly the Pope is isolated in Malta and pretty much on an English leash.
 
How about a situation were Pope Pius IX ends up as a lame duck of sorts, perhapse being located in a few different cities until his death in 1878. The Papal Conclave, while electing a Pope, also ends up deciding where the Pope shall be based, either as an actual decission or sort of a secondary layer to electing a Pope (ie a candidate with a French connection elevated to the papacy might decide to establish at Avignon)

Anyway, the Wiki page for the Conclave of 1878 mentions moving the conclave to Spain under the Restoration. If the Restoration takes place in this TL, a move to Spain might still be an option, and could even be seen as a nuetral site so to speak.
 
Left with no backers in Europe Benito Juarez (take your pick of Mexican leaders) backs the Pope and sets him up in Veracruz.

Benito Juarez would be the last to allow the Pope to set foot in Mexico. He was a staunch liberal and an opposer of the privileges of the Church in Mexico.

Now since Wilcox has balkanized Mexico he has given us the possibility of creating a Catholic theocracy in Tlaxcala (Puebla). In OTL Puebla was the most conservative part of Mexico through out its history and the Bishop of Puebla (diode of Tlaxcala) also traditionally had a troubled relationship with the rest of Mexico including the archbishop based in Mexico City.
So while Juarez is liberalizing Oaxaca (he has nothing to do in Puebla anymore) and possibly being one of the founders of a Central American Federation, Tlaxcala/Puebla might be leaning in the opposite direction; even without a Pope a scenario like this is guaranteed to have the Bishop of Puebla being the supreme authority in IITL's Tlaxcala.

I still vote that you should explore on what you can do with Puebla, even if it means creating a schism in the Church (that is still quite fun).
 
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I was looking into the map of the Mexican nations that you drew and pondering with the idea of having the Pope in Puebla and creating a Catholic schism and I came up with what could be an interesting scenario. (This is Wilcox’s timeline so Wilcox is free to do whatever he wants with it but I am doing this to encourage some discussion of the possibilities).

So looking back at the map of Mexico, I do not believe that the borders of the new nations are set. IITL’s Durango includes Tepic, which was part of Jalisco prior to the split, and Chihuahua includes Sinaloa, which was part of Sonora. Thus it is likely that there is still some fighting going on between the new countries. However some should be more stable than others while Mexico is likely trying to reunify the country making incursions into Jalisco and Granidalgo and others are fighting over borders Puebla is minding its own business and Oaxaca is slowly progressing with liberal leaders and American investment in Tehuantepec.

So the choosing of the new Papal location happens as GreatScottMart suggested; he gets initially turned down by every European monarch. So when the diocese of Tlaxcala suggests abandoning the old decadent continent to win a new upcoming one there is some serious consideration of taking the offer. You don’t need the Pope to actually move only to consider it or to be forcefully pushed into doing so. Anyway just the mere consideration would cause an outrage and a wave of anti-Catholicism worldwide.

In the United States, although it has a larger Catholic population ITTL, it is seen as a threat to democracy and anti-Catholic sentiment creates violence in the major Catholic centers. Many believe that it is all a scheme for the Papacy to take over their backyard and then move into the US.

In the Mexican nations the “Reform War” erupts full scale (likely larger than OTL’s). Liberal leaders in Mexico, Jalisco, Durango, Zacatecas and Granidalgo actually begin to talk to each other to get rid of the Papal menace. Coups happen were they need to and a joint force is made to invade Puebla and remove the diocese.

The newly erupted chaos creates a new flood of immigration towards California. Fearing Mexican reunification California makes its move on Sonora who fearing Papal or Mexican supremacy actually welcomes its annexation. A similar situation happens with Rio Grande being admitted into the United States (as two or more different states). Chihuahua is split between the two.

In Oaxaca and Central America liberal leaders also take over (with the help of American filibusters) and the way is paved for Benito Juarez and other leaders to set up The Central American Union.

In Europe there is also an anti-papal wave but ultimately before the Pope even has a chance to step in a boat offers are made to avoid it. The final decision is between Avignon and Malta.

I hope you guys enjoyed the scenario.
 
I hope you guys enjoyed the scenario.


If heartily endorse this scenario! Except I'd like the Rio Bravo Republic to remain independent (and perhaps annex all of Chihuahua). This allows for exciting times in Latin America, has the Mexican Pope idea alive but sticks to the plausible scenario of him going to Malta. Yay.
 
I like your scenario a lot jycee! I might use some elements of it in my final decision, it looks really good.

Although now I'm sort of leaning toward another split within the Church. I just remembered that around this time in OTL Ecuador was really conservative and pro-Catholic. If the Conclave dithers after Pius IX dies and elects a fairly conservative Pope, the European powers could object and select a liberal Pope to serve instead. The conservative Pope might flee to Latin America where he has more following and set up shop in either Puebla. It might get reconciled in the 20th century like the situation with the Anti-Pope.
 
Part Forty-Three: A Crumbling Confederacy
Time for a new update. No accompanying map with this one since it just explains more of what was going on in the last map.

Part Forty-Three: A Crumbling Confederacy

Jackson Revolts:
With the Union army steadily moving south and President Fremont refusing to enter into peace negotiations with Confederate President Benjamin, the individual southern states started to lose their loyalty to the Confederate government. In the state of Jackson, which had not originally declared itself part of the Confederate States of America but was invaded very early in the war, a popular uprising in support of the United States began in September of 1865. The uprising started in Pensacola as the citizens occupied several government buildings. With aid from the Union Gulf Squadron, the state capitol building in Pensacola fell to the rebels on September 17th. From Pensacola the rebels spread out along the roads around the city using guerrilla tactics.

By the end of September, the uprising had spread to other cities in Jackson. In the first month, the fight against the Confederacy was concentrated in the major population centers where slavery was least popular. A separate group of rebels captured the city of Marianna on September 30th. With more assistance from the Gulf Squadron after the fall of New Orleans, the newly created Jackson militia overran the garrison in the harbor at San Andrés[1] on October 8th. An attempt by rebels to overthrow the Confederates stationed at Tallahassee was put down by the Confederates and the participants in that uprising were hanged. The Jackson militia in San Andrés met up with the Marianna rebels on the 15th as the Second Texas Corps was brought into Pensacola to secure the remainder of western Jackson. Some members of the Second Texas Corps assisted the rebels with setting up defenses along the west side of the Seguin River and by the end of October much of the state west of the river had fallen under Union control. After the remainder of the Gulf Coast was captured by the Union over the next month, Francis Richard Lubbock and the Second Texas Corps would head east toward Tallahassee and the remainder of Jackson.

Veracruz Quits:
After the capture of New Orleans, Jefferson Davis realized that the Confederacy was going to fall and that its reabsorption in to the Union was only a matter of time. Having no desire to give up his power and let the Union capture Veracruz, Davis and Veracruz declared independence from the Confederate States of America. After sending a diplomatic letter to Washington, the independence of Veracruz was recognized by the United States government in exchange for being able to use the port as a naval base.[2]

As the Confederacy continued losing land to the Union forces, Jefferson Davis invited Confederates to leave their homes in the CSA and migrate to Veracruz. Davis encouraged mostly former dockworkers from New Orleans, Mobile, and Havana to enter Veracruz. Over twenty thousand people with an equal distribution in Cuba and the mainland came to Veracruz in the years after the fall of the Confederacy. These immigrants greatly contributed to the economic prosperity of Veracruz around the turn of the 20th century. Through the next thirty years, the city-state became a busy entry port for goods entering the unstable Mexican states as it was one of the only continuously stable countries in the region.

[1] OTL Panama City, Florida. It was originally called Saint Andrew, which I have Hispanicized
[2] The reasoning for Davis' secession from the CSA comes from Jefferson Davis's memoirs in TTL.
 
So Veracruz is going remain a city-state for the foreseeable future, I like it; something I've never seen before either:).

So what about the rest of Mexico, will it ever come together again, or be permanently broken into many states?
 
Great update Wilcox. I am really curios on how Veracruz involvement in the war will be seen in history. You say Davis decided to quit because he saw no positive end to Veracruz's involvement but no with so many immigrants into the port will there ever be a Veracrutian identity that needs a better explanation?
The other two ex-Mexican nations that I can really see benefitting from Davis' involvement are Granidalgo and Oaxaca. The first one has Tampico (not sure why you just didn't call it Tampico) another good port in the Gulf for trade, which was not as badly affected in the Mex-American war as Veracruz. And Oaxaca is in control of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec which the US has a lot of interest in at the time as it is an easy place to build railroad to transport goods from the Gulf to the Pacific (I guess it would be from Coatzacoalco to Huatulco). If you get Porfirio Diaz as leader of Oaxaca I bet he would be very interested in such investment. My guess is Benito Juarez is in power there at the moment; he would also be keen in American investment but something tells me Juarez would be more concerned in trying to reunify Mexico someway.

I like your scenario a lot jycee! I might use some elements of it in my final decision, it looks really good.

Glad I could inspire something. And I very much like your idea of the conservative anti-Pope as well. The Churches could reunite but I have a feeling it would still be very costly for the Catholic Church in the end in terms of power and influence.

So Veracruz is going remain a city-state for the foreseeable future, I like it; something I've never seen before either:).

So what about the rest of Mexico, will it ever come together again, or be permanently broken into many states?

I hope they do or at least some of them do in one way or another.
 
So Veracruz is going remain a city-state for the foreseeable future, I like it; something I've never seen before either:).

So what about the rest of Mexico, will it ever come together again, or be permanently broken into many states?
I haven't made many concrete plans for the rest of Mexico, but there will most likely be some wars in the region. Expect the British to be financing some of them. ;)

Great update Wilcox. I am really curios on how Veracruz involvement in the war will be seen in history. You say Davis decided to quit because he saw no positive end to Veracruz's involvement but no with so many immigrants into the port will there ever be a Veracrutian identity that needs a better explanation?
There probably will be a Veracrutian (Veracruzero?) identity created as Davis and his successors try to maintain their independence from the surrounding countries.

I called it Granidalgo because it's dominated by what used to be the state of Hidalgo rather than the coastal area.

The other two ex-Mexican nations that I can really see benefitting from Davis' involvement are Granidalgo and Oaxaca. The first one has Tampico (not sure why you just didn't call it Tampico) another good port in the Gulf for trade, which was not as badly affected in the Mex-American war as Veracruz. And Oaxaca is in control of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec which the US has a lot of interest in at the time as it is an easy place to build railroad to transport goods from the Gulf to the Pacific (I guess it would be from Coatzacoalco to Huatulco). If you get Porfirio Diaz as leader of Oaxaca I bet he would be very interested in such investment. My guess is Benito Juarez is in power there at the moment; he would also be keen in American investment but something tells me Juarez would be more concerned in trying to reunify Mexico someway.
Tampico and the Isthmus of Tehuantepec probably will get a lot of investment from the United States and European powers, but I'd think that Tampico would be a disputed point between Granidalgo and Rio Bravo. Oaxaca will probably get most of the economic benefit unless the area around Tampico gets more stable.

Glad I could inspire something. And I very much like your idea of the conservative anti-Pope as well. The Churches could reunite but I have a feeling it would still be very costly for the Catholic Church in the end in terms of power and influence.
Yeah, a 19th century Anti-papacy would have an interesting effect on the functioning of the Church.
 
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