That would be great Wilcox. Hopefully you can find the time for it. Even if you don't do the description of every country. At least do the us. It would be great to know what was your general plan there.
Union and Liberty: An American TL
- Thread starter wilcoxchar
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That would be great Wilcox. Hopefully you can find the time for it. Even if you don't do the description of every country. At least do the us. It would be great to know what was your general plan there.
Thanks everyone. I've been getting some more motivation to work on the last bits of the timeline, but haven't had much time to actually write lately. My plan is still to get to the 1912 election by the end of the year, so hopefully I can get some updates written soon enough. After 1912 I do plan on doing a sort of epilogue with pieces of what I had planned.
So fear not, Union and Liberty shall live again soon!
So fear not, Union and Liberty shall live again soon!
So... I know I'm kinda dredging up an old topic, but this topic deserves it.
I just finished reading this recently and I'm very impressed. I really like all the detail and thought you put into it, Wilcox. It really makes for an interesting History. I like how you are writing the timeline from the perspective of a history textbook. If I do a timeline, I think I may use that strategy.
I like how you have an independent California and have thought out how such a country develop. However, a minor quibble I have with an independent California is that it seems to me that annexation by the US during the Mexican-American War was pretty automatic; pretty much as soon as US soldiers entered the area they claimed it for the US. However, I'm sure butterflies can explain it. One last word on Cali: ANNEX IT. ALL OF IT! PLUS BRITISH NORTH AMERICA, ALASKA, AND THE RIO BRAVO REPUBLIC!!! MANIFEST DESTINY!!!
Just kidding! You do what ever you think is best. I actually think independent California, Russian Alaska, and your other differences make this timeline interesting.
I just finished reading this recently and I'm very impressed. I really like all the detail and thought you put into it, Wilcox. It really makes for an interesting History. I like how you are writing the timeline from the perspective of a history textbook. If I do a timeline, I think I may use that strategy.
I like how you have an independent California and have thought out how such a country develop. However, a minor quibble I have with an independent California is that it seems to me that annexation by the US during the Mexican-American War was pretty automatic; pretty much as soon as US soldiers entered the area they claimed it for the US. However, I'm sure butterflies can explain it. One last word on Cali: ANNEX IT. ALL OF IT! PLUS BRITISH NORTH AMERICA, ALASKA, AND THE RIO BRAVO REPUBLIC!!! MANIFEST DESTINY!!!
Just kidding! You do what ever you think is best. I actually think independent California, Russian Alaska, and your other differences make this timeline interesting.
WRT California, I hope it stays independent too. That being said, maybe an annexation above roughly 36'30 would be enough to salve American expansionist attitudes while permitting Cali to remain its own country? It'd look better on a map anyway IMO. Failing that, there's always taking bits of Canada (although they've been sorta screwed out west as it is, so YMMV).
Here's the page with the link to it. You'll have to scroll down a bit, but this is the most recent one I can find:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=115064&page=129
Part One Hundred Twenty-Seven: The Treaty of Saint-Denis
Merry Christmas everyone! After nearly a year (wow, has it really been that long?) I finally started writing more Union and Liberty last night, and so what better day to revive the timeline than today. Here's the next update!
Part One Hundred Twenty-Seven: The Treaty of Saint-Denis
The Treaty of Saint-Denis:
1911 was a decisive year for Europe and the world as the Great War started drawing to a close. Spain and Italy, who for years had born the brunt of the Franco-German offensives, were now on the verge of collapse. For Spain, much of the north and east was occupied by the French. The Spanish were continually losing ground in the early months of 1911 as General Joseph Joffre spearheaded an assault on Madrid. As the French neared the capital in the north, the Cantonalist Uprising spread in the south. The First Convention of the Cities was held in Cordoba from February 12 to 17, and saw more than a hundred cities across Andalucia and Murcia send representatives to the assembly. The declaration of sovereignty by the assembly and the renunciation of the Cortes' authority over southern Spain galvanized the uprising in the rest of southern Spain, and more cities openly declared opposition to Spanish authority in February and March. With Madrid rapidly losing control of the south and the northeast, King Alfonso and the Cortes appointed a diplomatic delegation to Paris to seek a peace between the two countries.
Across the Mediterranean in Italy, the New Coalition was not faring well either. While Italy had little internal strife, the French, German, and Illyrian armies had broken through the Alpine defensive line and were quickly striking at the heart of Italy's economy in the Po Valley. French armies swept aside an Italian stand at Pavia to cross the Po and capture Milan on February 21st. In the east, the Isonzo Line at last broke to the combined German and Illyrian forces after the Third Battle of Gorizia led to the final change of hands of the city in the Great War, falling to the Alliance Carolingien. Udine fell soon after, and the Germans shifted their eyes toward Treviso and Vicenza as they advanced south from the Alps. With the Po Valley under threat and the Italians failing to make any progress in dislodging the French from Tuscany, President Giovanni Giolitti gave in to the more socialist elements in his coalition and agreed to broker a peace with the French and Germans.
In Paris, the Italian and Spanish delegations were given a cold reception, with the French and German representatives seeing the Liga Mediterranea as a thoroughly defeated alliance. Throughout the negotiations that took place in March and April, the French diplomats were condescending toward their enemy counterparts, and the eventual terms of the treaty were just as harsh. The final treaty was signed in the Basilica of Saint-Denis, a 12th century abbey, rather than any of the grand palaces in Paris. Everything about the treaty negotiation was meant to humiliate the Spain and Italy, and the terms of the treaty were no less humiliating.
The territorial cessions suffered by Spain and Italy under the Treaty of Saint-Denis were crippling. Both countries were forced to cede all of their colonial possessions; Italian North Africa went to France, while the remaining Spanish colonies were divided among the victorious Alliance nations. Porto Rico was originally to be ceded to the United States, but this was reversed during later broader peace negotiations with the island ultimately becoming independent. The Spanish possessions in Africa were divided with the Moroccan colonies going to France, while Spanish Guinea went to Germany. The Spanish East Indies were divided among France and Germany, and much of the Philippine archipelago was put under a joint Franco-German administeration after discussions over how to partition the islands came to a deadlock. Within Europe, Spain and Italy lost many of their border territories under Saint-Denis. The Balearic Islands became French, while buffer states in the Basque region and a Catalunya that included the kingdom of Aragon were set up with extensive French oversight. General Joffre, as a French Catalan from Roussillon, was declared the President of the Military District of Catalunya in hopes to appease the local population's nationalist ideals, and would later serve as the transitional President of Catalunya following the war[1]. Italy, while it had suffered less than Spain during the war, was perhaps punished more by the Treaty of Saint-Denis. Germany, France, and Illyria all had designs on carving out pieces of northern Italy, and for a time many of these were realized. Illyria gained the ports of Trieste and Rijeka, the province of Gorica, and everything east of the Torre River[2]. Germany was to receive the Trento region, as well as much of northern Veneto with a corridor giving Germany access to the Adriatic at Bevazzana. The France, arguably the greatest victors over Italy in the war, would have received Sardinia, much of Savoy and Piedmont, and a small coastal strip in Tuscany stretching from Piombino to Grosseto[3]. While many of these cessions would be reversed in later treaties in the diplomatic conferences following the Great War, the Treaty of Saint-Denis served as the armistice for knocking Spain and Italy out of the war and as the template on which the final territorial adjustments were made.
The treaty also included non-territorial concessions from Spain and Italy, such as extensive war reparations and severely limiting the naval armaments of the two countries within the Mediterranean. These concessions would have especially crippled Italy's power projection even further. However, like many of the territorial concessions, these terms were revised and greatly softened under the final peace negotiations later in 1911 and in the following years. Historians continue to speculate on the reasoning behind the harshness of the Treaty of Saint-Denis. The greater consensus is that it was never meant to be a serious lasting proposal, but rather an incentive to bring the British and Russians to the peace table. Any peace treaty with Spain and Italy would have freed up Alliance forces to bring the focus in Europe on the offensive in the east against Russia and Hungary, and made fears of an invasion of Britain by France more credible. However, the exaggerated terms of the Treaty of Saint-Denis were likely intended as even more of a shock to officials in London and Saint Petersburg. Indeed, correspondence by the British ambassador to Spain to the British Foreign Ministry show the perceived urgency of signing an armistice following the treaty. "With the Treaty, France has gained total dominance over the Mediterranean. I fear if we do not act quickly to reverse these concessions through diplomatic means, the French navy will come to dominate the North Atlantic and the English Channel as well, and God help England if that comes to pass."
[1] The Catalan Republic still considers Joffre its first president.
[2] This doesn't quite include Udine, but comes pretty close.
[3] While La Spezia is a better port, the Gulf of Follonica is more protected due to its proximity to Corsica. EDIT: Also, apparently Spain did it first. Stupid history stealing my ideas again.
Part One Hundred Twenty-Seven: The Treaty of Saint-Denis
The Treaty of Saint-Denis:
1911 was a decisive year for Europe and the world as the Great War started drawing to a close. Spain and Italy, who for years had born the brunt of the Franco-German offensives, were now on the verge of collapse. For Spain, much of the north and east was occupied by the French. The Spanish were continually losing ground in the early months of 1911 as General Joseph Joffre spearheaded an assault on Madrid. As the French neared the capital in the north, the Cantonalist Uprising spread in the south. The First Convention of the Cities was held in Cordoba from February 12 to 17, and saw more than a hundred cities across Andalucia and Murcia send representatives to the assembly. The declaration of sovereignty by the assembly and the renunciation of the Cortes' authority over southern Spain galvanized the uprising in the rest of southern Spain, and more cities openly declared opposition to Spanish authority in February and March. With Madrid rapidly losing control of the south and the northeast, King Alfonso and the Cortes appointed a diplomatic delegation to Paris to seek a peace between the two countries.
Across the Mediterranean in Italy, the New Coalition was not faring well either. While Italy had little internal strife, the French, German, and Illyrian armies had broken through the Alpine defensive line and were quickly striking at the heart of Italy's economy in the Po Valley. French armies swept aside an Italian stand at Pavia to cross the Po and capture Milan on February 21st. In the east, the Isonzo Line at last broke to the combined German and Illyrian forces after the Third Battle of Gorizia led to the final change of hands of the city in the Great War, falling to the Alliance Carolingien. Udine fell soon after, and the Germans shifted their eyes toward Treviso and Vicenza as they advanced south from the Alps. With the Po Valley under threat and the Italians failing to make any progress in dislodging the French from Tuscany, President Giovanni Giolitti gave in to the more socialist elements in his coalition and agreed to broker a peace with the French and Germans.
In Paris, the Italian and Spanish delegations were given a cold reception, with the French and German representatives seeing the Liga Mediterranea as a thoroughly defeated alliance. Throughout the negotiations that took place in March and April, the French diplomats were condescending toward their enemy counterparts, and the eventual terms of the treaty were just as harsh. The final treaty was signed in the Basilica of Saint-Denis, a 12th century abbey, rather than any of the grand palaces in Paris. Everything about the treaty negotiation was meant to humiliate the Spain and Italy, and the terms of the treaty were no less humiliating.
The territorial cessions suffered by Spain and Italy under the Treaty of Saint-Denis were crippling. Both countries were forced to cede all of their colonial possessions; Italian North Africa went to France, while the remaining Spanish colonies were divided among the victorious Alliance nations. Porto Rico was originally to be ceded to the United States, but this was reversed during later broader peace negotiations with the island ultimately becoming independent. The Spanish possessions in Africa were divided with the Moroccan colonies going to France, while Spanish Guinea went to Germany. The Spanish East Indies were divided among France and Germany, and much of the Philippine archipelago was put under a joint Franco-German administeration after discussions over how to partition the islands came to a deadlock. Within Europe, Spain and Italy lost many of their border territories under Saint-Denis. The Balearic Islands became French, while buffer states in the Basque region and a Catalunya that included the kingdom of Aragon were set up with extensive French oversight. General Joffre, as a French Catalan from Roussillon, was declared the President of the Military District of Catalunya in hopes to appease the local population's nationalist ideals, and would later serve as the transitional President of Catalunya following the war[1]. Italy, while it had suffered less than Spain during the war, was perhaps punished more by the Treaty of Saint-Denis. Germany, France, and Illyria all had designs on carving out pieces of northern Italy, and for a time many of these were realized. Illyria gained the ports of Trieste and Rijeka, the province of Gorica, and everything east of the Torre River[2]. Germany was to receive the Trento region, as well as much of northern Veneto with a corridor giving Germany access to the Adriatic at Bevazzana. The France, arguably the greatest victors over Italy in the war, would have received Sardinia, much of Savoy and Piedmont, and a small coastal strip in Tuscany stretching from Piombino to Grosseto[3]. While many of these cessions would be reversed in later treaties in the diplomatic conferences following the Great War, the Treaty of Saint-Denis served as the armistice for knocking Spain and Italy out of the war and as the template on which the final territorial adjustments were made.
The treaty also included non-territorial concessions from Spain and Italy, such as extensive war reparations and severely limiting the naval armaments of the two countries within the Mediterranean. These concessions would have especially crippled Italy's power projection even further. However, like many of the territorial concessions, these terms were revised and greatly softened under the final peace negotiations later in 1911 and in the following years. Historians continue to speculate on the reasoning behind the harshness of the Treaty of Saint-Denis. The greater consensus is that it was never meant to be a serious lasting proposal, but rather an incentive to bring the British and Russians to the peace table. Any peace treaty with Spain and Italy would have freed up Alliance forces to bring the focus in Europe on the offensive in the east against Russia and Hungary, and made fears of an invasion of Britain by France more credible. However, the exaggerated terms of the Treaty of Saint-Denis were likely intended as even more of a shock to officials in London and Saint Petersburg. Indeed, correspondence by the British ambassador to Spain to the British Foreign Ministry show the perceived urgency of signing an armistice following the treaty. "With the Treaty, France has gained total dominance over the Mediterranean. I fear if we do not act quickly to reverse these concessions through diplomatic means, the French navy will come to dominate the North Atlantic and the English Channel as well, and God help England if that comes to pass."
[1] The Catalan Republic still considers Joffre its first president.
[2] This doesn't quite include Udine, but comes pretty close.
[3] While La Spezia is a better port, the Gulf of Follonica is more protected due to its proximity to Corsica. EDIT: Also, apparently Spain did it first. Stupid history stealing my ideas again.
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There's been a lot of things updating today, but this was by far the best (and perhaps most surprising!) written Christmas present of them all! Good to see the Great War wrapping up at long last, because I know the loose ends afterwards will be just as interesting. I can't wait to see what you come up with!
Oh awesome Wilcox!!! Glad to see this back!!!
And man that treaty was harsh on Spain and Italy. And I fear it can potentially back fire on the allies. In OTL the Brest-Litovsk Treaty doomed Germany, as the allies where not going to let it stand. While I don't think the alliance can be defeated here, Russia and Britain will certainly not let the Treaty stand as is not with two of their allies so grossly dismembered.
Anyways awesome update!!! And hope we get to see more of U&L.
And man that treaty was harsh on Spain and Italy. And I fear it can potentially back fire on the allies. In OTL the Brest-Litovsk Treaty doomed Germany, as the allies where not going to let it stand. While I don't think the alliance can be defeated here, Russia and Britain will certainly not let the Treaty stand as is not with two of their allies so grossly dismembered.
Anyways awesome update!!! And hope we get to see more of U&L.
Partially out of curiosity on how The Treaty of Saint-Denis looks like (hopefully you don't mind Wilcox) I did a quick sketch with what should now be the western Mediterranean borders... and damn were Spain and Italy screwed. Wilcox made no mention of Liguria or Valencia so I partially synced the borders with the last map there the front lines; Valencia and Genoa are still within Spain and Italy respectively. TBH the only part of the Treaty I see being respected in the greater peace negotiations are Illyria's gains (and hopefully it still snags Dalmatia out of Hungary).
This is back? Goddamnit I should have subscribed to this. It's a shame that I don't remember much of this TL (Italy is a republic?), but nonetheless I'm glad to see it back and hopfully still kicking.
Also what's with the Spanish East Indies? I have a map of the world and there's nothing there.
Also what's with the Spanish East Indies? I have a map of the world and there's nothing there.
Good update, Wilcox!
Thanks everyone! I'm going to try to have the next update done some time this week. Hopefully I can get back to a somewhat regular update schedule.
Great map jycee, I don't mind at all.
The Spanish East Indies is the OTL Spanish possessions in the Pacific at the time, so the Philippines, Guam and the Marianas, the Caroline Islands, and Palau. The British navy has mostly kept the French from actually occupying any of the Philippines so far, but Spain has lost a lot of its ability to directly govern the islands during the war.Also what's with the Spanish East Indies? I have a map of the world and there's nothing there.