Union and Liberty: An American TL
- Thread starter wilcoxchar
- Start date
Germany can control the gulf if it wants.
Keep it up, Wilcox!
I think British resistance would be massive, and Britain still has a better navy, which would prevent German reinforcements from arriving easily. Meanwhile, British India is only a stones throw away (if that stone were thrown by Superman). I think Britain is going to win any war for oil fought there.
Britain's going to keep that land unless it's forced to give up the territory as part of a peace deal signed to end a larger war. That's my opinion, anyway.
Cheers,
Ganesha
Next update will be finished tomorrow!
Theoretically they could, but at this point the British still have a stronger navy than the Germans, and the Brits took Hormuz so that wouldn't happen.Germany can control the gulf if it wants.
Keep it up, Wilcox!
Turkey is in an interesting situation indeed. They don't like the French because of their support for Egypt, and Britain is trying to be friends with them and Russia at the same time. The OE will probably have to decide whether it hates Egypt or Russia more when deciding which side they want to be on. Their position doesn't really allow much chance for neutrality.
The World in a New Century, Section XII: Persia and India
Here we go.
The World in a New Century, Section XII: Persia and India
Published by the McNally Corporation in Chicago, 1901.
Persia:
The country of Persia covers much of the land between the Turkish Empire in the west and British India to the east. Like the Turkish Empire, the people of Persia practice the Mohammedan religion. However, in many ways, Persia is more uncivilized than the Turks. The country is governed by the absolute ruler known as the shah and like the other countries in the region, the people are given no say in how the government functions. Persia, however, has been unable to prevent foreign influence from the great powers of Europe from filtering into the country.
The two countries that have put the most effort into influencing the Persian government are Great Britain and the Russian Empire. During the last century, Russia launched several wars against Persia. Along with taking land around the Caspian Sea from Persia, Russia gained exclusive rights over parts of the northwest Persia and around the rest of the Caspian Sea. In the past decade, Great Britain also invaded Persia and enforced their interests in the country. Great Britain took the region of Baluchistan in southeastern Persia as well as the island of Ormuz. The control of Ormuz allows Great Britain to control the entrance to the Persian Gulf.
Because Persia is a backward yet diverse nation, there are many people who are being oppressed by the rule of the shah. Nationalist sentiment has recently risen in Persia among many peoples in the country. So far, the Baluchis have been most successful. With the British invasion of Persia, Baluchistan was established as an autonomous state under British protection. In the northwest, the Azeris and Kurds have undertaken nationalist uprisings against the Persian government. While these have not had much success thus far, the mountainous regions have made them difficult for the Persian government to completely suppress. Possible assistance by the Turks or Russians have also contributed to the survival of these smaller movements. To the east of Persia, Afghanistan has also survived as an independent country under British influence.
India:
The Indian subcontinent is almost entirely owned by the British government. Like the Hudson Bay Company in New Caledonia, the British East India Company performs many of the functions of the colonial government in India. The cities of Delhi, Calcutta, Bombay, and Madras serve simultaneously as the colonial administrative capitals and as the regional offices for the British East India Company. The BEIC also has several autonomous powers within the subcontinent, similar to the Hudson Bay Company in New Caledonia. While the viceroys are nominally appointed by the British government, the BEIC has great influence over the actual affairs of the colonial government and the viceroys have little true power.
Aside from the areas directly controlled by the British government and the BEIC, there are several autonomous states within British India known as the princely states. The princely states are remnants of the pre-colonial countries in India and are headed by local Indian rulers. However, they do not have complete autonomy and are still British protectorates, and in the half century since the Ganges Revolt, the powers of the princely states has been gradually removed in favor of direct control by the British viceroys. The primary princely states are Rajputana, Hyderabad, and Mysore. Recently, the northwestern frontier of British India has also been carved into the princely states of Baluchistan and Kashmir.
The population of British India is very large, at over three hundred million people. This is over three times the population of the United States, and almost seven times the population of the British Isles. The population of British India mostly practices Brahmanism, though there is a large Mohammedan minority. Within the Indian social hierarchy there is a strict caste system that largely prevents the poorer underclasses from bettering themselves economically.
While Great Britain dominates the Indian subcontinent, there are a few small areas that are not owned by the British. The largest of these is the country of Afghanistan. It is located in the Hindu Kush mountains northwest of British India, and serves as a buffer state between the British and Russian territories in the region. There are also some minor cities on the coast of the Indian subcontinent that remain out of British control. These are the Portuguese possession of Goa, and the French possession of Pondicherry.
The World in a New Century, Section XII: Persia and India
Published by the McNally Corporation in Chicago, 1901.
Persia:
The country of Persia covers much of the land between the Turkish Empire in the west and British India to the east. Like the Turkish Empire, the people of Persia practice the Mohammedan religion. However, in many ways, Persia is more uncivilized than the Turks. The country is governed by the absolute ruler known as the shah and like the other countries in the region, the people are given no say in how the government functions. Persia, however, has been unable to prevent foreign influence from the great powers of Europe from filtering into the country.
The two countries that have put the most effort into influencing the Persian government are Great Britain and the Russian Empire. During the last century, Russia launched several wars against Persia. Along with taking land around the Caspian Sea from Persia, Russia gained exclusive rights over parts of the northwest Persia and around the rest of the Caspian Sea. In the past decade, Great Britain also invaded Persia and enforced their interests in the country. Great Britain took the region of Baluchistan in southeastern Persia as well as the island of Ormuz. The control of Ormuz allows Great Britain to control the entrance to the Persian Gulf.
Because Persia is a backward yet diverse nation, there are many people who are being oppressed by the rule of the shah. Nationalist sentiment has recently risen in Persia among many peoples in the country. So far, the Baluchis have been most successful. With the British invasion of Persia, Baluchistan was established as an autonomous state under British protection. In the northwest, the Azeris and Kurds have undertaken nationalist uprisings against the Persian government. While these have not had much success thus far, the mountainous regions have made them difficult for the Persian government to completely suppress. Possible assistance by the Turks or Russians have also contributed to the survival of these smaller movements. To the east of Persia, Afghanistan has also survived as an independent country under British influence.
India:
The Indian subcontinent is almost entirely owned by the British government. Like the Hudson Bay Company in New Caledonia, the British East India Company performs many of the functions of the colonial government in India. The cities of Delhi, Calcutta, Bombay, and Madras serve simultaneously as the colonial administrative capitals and as the regional offices for the British East India Company. The BEIC also has several autonomous powers within the subcontinent, similar to the Hudson Bay Company in New Caledonia. While the viceroys are nominally appointed by the British government, the BEIC has great influence over the actual affairs of the colonial government and the viceroys have little true power.
Aside from the areas directly controlled by the British government and the BEIC, there are several autonomous states within British India known as the princely states. The princely states are remnants of the pre-colonial countries in India and are headed by local Indian rulers. However, they do not have complete autonomy and are still British protectorates, and in the half century since the Ganges Revolt, the powers of the princely states has been gradually removed in favor of direct control by the British viceroys. The primary princely states are Rajputana, Hyderabad, and Mysore. Recently, the northwestern frontier of British India has also been carved into the princely states of Baluchistan and Kashmir.
The population of British India is very large, at over three hundred million people. This is over three times the population of the United States, and almost seven times the population of the British Isles. The population of British India mostly practices Brahmanism, though there is a large Mohammedan minority. Within the Indian social hierarchy there is a strict caste system that largely prevents the poorer underclasses from bettering themselves economically.
While Great Britain dominates the Indian subcontinent, there are a few small areas that are not owned by the British. The largest of these is the country of Afghanistan. It is located in the Hindu Kush mountains northwest of British India, and serves as a buffer state between the British and Russian territories in the region. There are also some minor cities on the coast of the Indian subcontinent that remain out of British control. These are the Portuguese possession of Goa, and the French possession of Pondicherry.
So we got an independent Afghanistan, and a semi-independent Balochistan... interesting. I guess, Afghanistan was expected due to Russo-British relations in TTL did it manage to keep its larger borders or have these been reduces as in OTL?
Also in this text book when a country is referred to as "uncivilized" what does it mean particularly. I know it means autocratic, technologically behind other etc. But surely the textbook would make a difference between the "uncivilized" African tribes, and the nation that was once the Persian Empire.
They could try maintaining neutrality, and probably will at first, but I'm not sure how long they can keep it up. Looking forward to developments here very very much.
Also in this text book when a country is referred to as "uncivilized" what does it mean particularly. I know it means autocratic, technologically behind other etc. But surely the textbook would make a difference between the "uncivilized" African tribes, and the nation that was once the Persian Empire.
They could try maintaining neutrality, and probably will at first, but I'm not sure how long they can keep it up. Looking forward to developments here very very much.
About Afghanistan, I think the borders would probably be a little bit bigger. With Britain more focused on European affairs, and Russia acting like it does ITTL, Afghanistan would have a little less pressure from all sides and would be able to retain a bit more territory.
Regarding Turkey's neutrality, I imagine that they'd probably choose depending on who their allies will be; if Britain's not gonna side with them against Russia, then they're gonna choose to go after Egypt. But if Britain and Russia split, then the Ottomans will probably attack Russia instead.
Very nice update as always, Wilcox, and I too am looking forward to the update.
Cheers,
Ganesha
I aree about Afghanistan, but just as a thought, the Balochistan situation doesn't seem to differ from OTL at all...
Afghanistan is actually a fair bit smaller than OTL. Based on the agreement between Russia and the British on Alaska and Central Asia, Russia's claims in Afghanistan were limited to the area north of the river that runs near Herat, so Russia actually has most of northern Afghanistan now ITTL.
Uncivilized mostly means unindustrialized, but also has some connotation of a country being non-European.
Hehe. I can't wait to do the diplomatic updates leading up to the Great War. I have a bunch of ideas for possible flash points, but now the issue is which ones to use.
I will take a look at auto racing when I get to the culture updates. I'm planning on Indy staying a center of the auto industry instead of it all moving to Detroit.
Thanks.Looking forward to seeing the Asian map when the chapter is over
I think I'll make a map of British India in the next few days since the different princely states probably won't be on the continental map.Well, Balochistan is bigger ITTL after the UK's invasion of Persia.
What about Britain's claims? Russia takes out a chunk of Afghanistan in the North, but unless I am mistaken the majority of the territory Afghanistan lost in OTL was to the British. Did they get to keep the southern chunk?
Hehe. I can't wait to do the diplomatic updates leading up to the Great War. I have a bunch of ideas for possible flash points, but now the issue is which ones to use.
Very oh so very much looking forward to these. I'd say let a few flash points occur as false starts and then let in rain down on with a big one!
Awesome. I suspected Indy was gonna do somewhat better in TTL since you posted the Gaslight District post on its down town. If the US doesn't gain much more territory to the West. Indy will also fare as the heart of the US (especially if the auto industry is there); it is not quite in the Great Lakes megalopolis, not quite near the Confluence megalopolis, nor the mid Atlantic, Appalachian nor the Gulf (which is also growing quite a bit in TTL). Indy sits comfortably somewhat in the middle.
As far as the auto industry goes, it would be interesting to have it somewhat decentralized. Perhaps some Tejan/Houstonian entrepreneur decides to give it a go as well and TTL's US ends with two rival centers of the auto-industry.
Thanks.
Well, Balochistan is bigger ITTL after the UK's invasion of Persia.
Very much looking forward to the map. And now that we start to see how British India is differing from OTL (just a bit but they'll add up). I do wonder what is in for it in the future.
Keep it up Wilcox
Oh wow, I didn't even realize that the thread had reached 100 pages. Yay!Before this moment leaves, just wanna say congratz on the Turtledove, and 100 excellent pages wilcoxchar!
Britain does take some land out of Afghanistan as part of concessions, though I'm having some trouble figuring out exactly where on the map I used for British India the OTL borders are. I think it roughly corresponds to the OTL border though.
I haven't figured out how Indianapolis will fit into the development of the urban landscape of the Midwest in the modern era yet. You're right that it's sort of separated from the other main urban agglomerations that would likely arise around it. My first thought would be to have the Chicago megalopolis extend south to Lafayette and Indy along OTL I-65, if it ends up being part of an urban region.
Hmm, having northern and southern centers for the auto industry would be interesting. The issue here would be getting raw materials for the Southern auto industry. The reason the Midwest was prefect for the American steel and auto industry was because it was right between the iron of the Upper Peninsula and the coal of the Appalachians. I'm not sure where the iron would be gotten from in the South.
Very interesting map, Wilcoxchar.
If Britain is still run by the East India Company, that means Britain is going to be even more screwed over than it was in OTL. It's a little-known fact that one of the main things the British did in India was de-industrialize the economy and revert India to a completely agrarian society. Because of that, India's GDP declined from the largest in the world in 1700 to like thirtieth or something in 1900. It was a massive, slow-motion economic crime, and lowered the standard of living for hundreds of millions of people over hundreds of years.
With the BEIC instead of the British Government in charge from 1850s onwards, that will be even worse. India's economy will be even more underdeveloped and stripped of its resources than it was.
The Indian independence movement may fracture India. The BEIC is much more likely to allow parts of India to become de facto independent if it means that they get to hang on to the rest of India for longer. That means that they'll let peripheries go for the sake of holding on to the important bits, and give up powers to the Princely States; giving us about a dozen Indias instead of two IOTL (arguably six, if you include Nepal, Bhutan, Myanmar and Bangladesh).
Cheers,
Ganesha
If Britain is still run by the East India Company, that means Britain is going to be even more screwed over than it was in OTL. It's a little-known fact that one of the main things the British did in India was de-industrialize the economy and revert India to a completely agrarian society. Because of that, India's GDP declined from the largest in the world in 1700 to like thirtieth or something in 1900. It was a massive, slow-motion economic crime, and lowered the standard of living for hundreds of millions of people over hundreds of years.
With the BEIC instead of the British Government in charge from 1850s onwards, that will be even worse. India's economy will be even more underdeveloped and stripped of its resources than it was.
The Indian independence movement may fracture India. The BEIC is much more likely to allow parts of India to become de facto independent if it means that they get to hang on to the rest of India for longer. That means that they'll let peripheries go for the sake of holding on to the important bits, and give up powers to the Princely States; giving us about a dozen Indias instead of two IOTL (arguably six, if you include Nepal, Bhutan, Myanmar and Bangladesh).
Cheers,
Ganesha
I does seem like Wilcox is aiming to fracture India into a handful of states. Ironically this started with a milder Ganges (Sepoy) Revolt if I read the old update correctly. BTW here it is:
This could potentially result in Afghanistan gaining some of its old borders back (at least from the British side if India implodes).
Wilcox, I also noticed that Myanmar/Burma is not part of TTL's British India, I know that in OTL it was for a brief while. Did this never happen in TTL.
The Southern industry (I'm thinking likely centered in Tejas or Arkansas) could get its coal from the Southern Appalachians, and iron from northern Alabama. If transportation to the West is too expensive the Birmingham, Alabama (or its equivalent since it wasn't founded until post-POD) can become the Southern auto-maker.
Also you can have it so the northern industry focuses on consumer cars while the Southern industry can focus in Luxury cars (in order to stay competitive with less resources.
Arrix85
Donor
I sure love the world you have created and this Atlas of the world has been so far enjoyable, but If I may nitpick, how it all happened? for example it's all great to say "the EIBC still controll India", but why their control didn't end?
the whole "tour of the world" is good, but it feels more like of a set-up for future updates, than actual info to be discussed.
the whole "tour of the world" is good, but it feels more like of a set-up for future updates, than actual info to be discussed.
Oh wow, I didn't even realize that the thread had reached 100 pages. Yay!
Britain does take some land out of Afghanistan as part of concessions, though I'm having some trouble figuring out exactly where on the map I used for British India the OTL borders are. I think it roughly corresponds to the OTL border though.
I haven't figured out how Indianapolis will fit into the development of the urban landscape of the Midwest in the modern era yet. You're right that it's sort of separated from the other main urban agglomerations that would likely arise around it. My first thought would be to have the Chicago megalopolis extend south to Lafayette and Indy along OTL I-65, if it ends up being part of an urban region.
Hmm, having northern and southern centers for the auto industry would be interesting. The issue here would be getting raw materials for the Southern auto industry. The reason the Midwest was prefect for the American steel and auto industry was because it was right between the iron of the Upper Peninsula and the coal of the Appalachians. I'm not sure where the iron would be gotten from in the South.
I might have an idea or two, Wilcox. Watch my ATL Automakers thread.
The BEIC still controls India because the equivalent to the 1857 Revolt was more mild, and the Crown didn't see as much of a need to take control from the Company.
Ack! Has it been a week already? I'll have the next update done by the weekend.
Looking at some of the OTL early carmakers, I'm thinking of having Duesenberg and Stutz survive past the 30s to keep auto manufacturing in Indiana.
Interesting, I remember a little bit about the de-industrialization of India by the BEIC but didn't know how extensive it was. How would the greater importance of Indian cotton to British textile industry in the late 19th century affect India, since the Brits don't have Egypt to provide another production center of cotton?
Burma will have either maintained its independence or be part of British Malaya. I haven't quite decided which yet.
That might work.
I have been struggling a bit to include some of the history behind things while keeping with the general overview style. But as Ganesha said, a milder 1857 revolt kept the Crown from taking control of Indian administration. Instead, the BEIC began to consolidate the subcontinent under company administration and gradually incorporated most of the weaker princely states.
Will do.I might have an idea or two, Wilcox. Watch my ATL Automakers thread.
Looking at some of the OTL early carmakers, I'm thinking of having Duesenberg and Stutz survive past the 30s to keep auto manufacturing in Indiana.