Union and Liberty, 1864 Elections: You Decide!

Who Should Lead the USA and the CSA

  • USA: Democrats (Johnson/Whitman), CSA: Howell Cobb

    Votes: 7 7.8%
  • USA: Democrats (Johnson/Whitman), CSA: Judah P. Benjamin

    Votes: 35 38.9%
  • USA: Republicans (Fremon/Wilmot), CSA: Howell Cobb

    Votes: 10 11.1%
  • USA: Republicans (Fremont/Wilmot), CSA: Judah P. Benjamin

    Votes: 38 42.2%

  • Total voters
    90
  • Poll closed .

Glen

Moderator
Despite the polls, I think that Benjamin isn't hard-core enough to win the Confederate election (and sadly, I'm just not certain that the South of this time is ready to elect a non-christian as their leader, despite his high stature in appointed political positions in OTL confederacy). Fremont isn't likely in the north with his strong abolitionist stance, which will lose him support in the 'border' states.

Just my 2c.
 
Despite the polls, I think that Benjamin isn't hard-core enough to win the Confederate election (and sadly, I'm just not certain that the South of this time is ready to elect a non-christian as their leader, despite his high stature in appointed political positions in OTL confederacy). Fremont isn't likely in the north with his strong abolitionist stance, which will lose him support in the 'border' states.

Just my 2c.

This is this Civil War has less to due about slavery (and secession) and is more about individuals grasping for power.
Fremont (and the Republicans) might not be that popular but Johnson got into power "undemocratically" in many people's minds. so moderates who believe that will vote Fremont.
I think there is a possibility of Fremont winning this election ending the Civil War but for him to be voted out four years later and having Johnson back in 68 to over see reconstruction.

Same goes for the CSA many there are probably starting to realize that the war is only prolonging because a few power hungry individuals acted radically. By now many may want independence but they are not willing to sacrifice everything for it.
 
Despite the polls, I think that Benjamin isn't hard-core enough to win the Confederate election (and sadly, I'm just not certain that the South of this time is ready to elect a non-christian as their leader, despite his high stature in appointed political positions in OTL confederacy). Fremont isn't likely in the north with his strong abolitionist stance, which will lose him support in the 'border' states.

Just my 2c.
First off, thanks for commenting. I'm always glad to receive input and suggestions. :) By now the South is probably getting tired of the fighting and Benjamin provides the best chance for a peaceful solution. Also, IIRC Disraeli became Prime Minister around this time in OTL, but I'm not sure how much public opinion regarding his religion compared in Britain and in the CSA.

This is this Civil War has less to due about slavery (and secession) and is more about individuals grasping for power.
Fremont (and the Republicans) might not be that popular but Johnson got into power "undemocratically" in many people's minds. so moderates who believe that will vote Fremont.
I think there is a possibility of Fremont winning this election ending the Civil War but for him to be voted out four years later and having Johnson back in 68 to over see reconstruction.

Same goes for the CSA many there are probably starting to realize that the war is only prolonging because a few power hungry individuals acted radically. By now many may want independence but they are not willing to sacrifice everything for it.
Hmmm, I'd forgotten that some people in the Union might still consider that Johnson was elected undemocratically. Thanks for reminding me of that. :D And although the war didn't start over slavery, having Fremont in the White House would almost definitely make it an issue and might reinvigorate the CSA's desire for independence.
 
With only a few days to go, Fremont is maintaining his narrow lead over Johnson! Looks like the Confederacy is in for a rough ride.
 

Glen

Moderator
This is this Civil War has less to due about slavery (and secession) and is more about individuals grasping for power.

And how does that effect my analysis?

Fremont (and the Republicans) might not be that popular but Johnson got into power "undemocratically" in many people's minds. so moderates who believe that will vote Fremont.

That's fair.

I think there is a possibility of Fremont winning this election ending the Civil War but for him to be voted out four years later and having Johnson back in 68 to over see reconstruction.

Maybe.

Same goes for the CSA many there are probably starting to realize that the war is only prolonging because a few power hungry individuals acted radically. By now many may want independence but they are not willing to sacrifice everything for it.

I just disagree. Once committed to the road of independence, the people of the South will fight for their home states with a passion. They will, in fact, sacrifice everything for it, even if they see their leaders as less then stellar.
 

Glen

Moderator
First off, thanks for commenting. I'm always glad to receive input and suggestions. :) By now the South is probably getting tired of the fighting and Benjamin provides the best chance for a peaceful solution.

They may be tired, but they won't give up without full independence in my opinion unless they are decisively and inarguably beaten on the field of battle.

Also, IIRC Disraeli became Prime Minister around this time in OTL, but I'm not sure how much public opinion regarding his religion compared in Britain and in the CSA.

Disraeli converted to Church of England as a teenager, whereas Benjamin remained of the Jewish faith. I think that would make the difference. While the leadership of the day could accept him as an able and important member of the elite, I doubt the average Confederate would be able to vote for him, though they might see him as 'a good one', I don't think that translates to the highest post in the land. Never underestimate the power of discrimination.

Hmmm, I'd forgotten that some people in the Union might still consider that Johnson was elected undemocratically. Thanks for reminding me of that. :D And although the war didn't start over slavery, having Fremont in the White House would almost definitely make it an issue and might reinvigorate the CSA's desire for independence.

The question of Johnson's elevation to the post may be enough to throw it to Fremont.

Agree that Fremont would have stiffened Confederate resolve. While we can argue what the Civil War (ours or this one) was mostly about, the sides were clearly defined by the issue of slavery (or was there a free state that joined the Confederates that I missed?;)). Heck, the border states that remained with the Union were half-occupied for fear of defection. It was more than just fear of hot summers!
 
Will you be making an Electoral Map when this election is over? It looks like the "Popular Vote" is going to be extremely close, but the Electoral Vote could exaggerate the victory for whichever candidate wins.

What state does Fremont represent in TTL since the US doesn't own California?
 
They may be tired, but they won't give up without full independence in my opinion unless they are decisively and inarguably beaten on the field of battle.
Well, TTL's Civil War started after an unclear presidential succession after the deaths of President Houston and Vice President Bayard. A committee was formed, some problems came up (South Carolina whinging as usual), and things kind of snowballed from there. So there's less of a nationalist feeling among the Southern population.

Disraeli converted to Church of England as a teenager, whereas Benjamin remained of the Jewish faith. I think that would make the difference. While the leadership of the day could accept him as an able and important member of the elite, I doubt the average Confederate would be able to vote for him, though they might see him as 'a good one', I don't think that translates to the highest post in the land. Never underestimate the power of discrimination.
Ah, I didn't realize that Disraeli converted. Maybe having the state legislatures elect the president of the CSA would solve it? It's a bit of a handwave but I don't remember mentioning much about the CSA Constitution.

The question of Johnson's elevation to the post may be enough to throw it to Fremont.

Agree that Fremont would have stiffened Confederate resolve. While we can argue what the Civil War (ours or this one) was mostly about, the sides were clearly defined by the issue of slavery (or was there a free state that joined the Confederates that I missed?;)). Heck, the border states that remained with the Union were half-occupied for fear of defection. It was more than just fear of hot summers!
Hehe. Although ITTL more slave states such as Tennesse and the two states in Texas stayed in the Union. Tennessee because of Johnson and Texas out of loyalty to the late President Houston. Fremont being elected and trying to push the issue of slavery (which he will undoubtedly do) would definitely cause concern for some slaveholders in the US as well.

Will you be making an Electoral Map when this election is over? It looks like the "Popular Vote" is going to be extremely close, but the Electoral Vote could exaggerate the victory for whichever candidate wins.

What state does Fremont represent in TTL since the US doesn't own California?
Yep, I will make an electoral map for the election shortly after the poll closes. And I guess... Fremont could represent Missouri, or maybe Indiana? Not sure at this point but probably a western state.
 
Hehe. Although ITTL more slave states such as Tennesse and the two states in Texas stayed in the Union. Tennessee because of Johnson and Texas out of loyalty to the late President Houston. Fremont being elected and trying to push the issue of slavery (which he will undoubtedly do) would definitely cause concern for some slaveholders in the US as well.

Fremont winning could actually push some of the governments in the border states to actually secede. I think Tennessee and Houston (maybe even Tejas) would probably go. Violence in Missouri would likely increase tenfold and the Ozark and Chikasaw states will definitively go Confederate.

This election will very likely just prolong the war.

Yep, I will make an electoral map for the election shortly after the poll closes. And I guess... Fremont could represent Missouri, or maybe Indiana? Not sure at this point but probably a western state.

I'm actually still surprised that no western state has appeared. In OTL California and Oregon already had statehood by now and Nevada as well underway. Lincoln pushed for it to get one more state. If people have been streaming west at the same pace as OTL (probably slower due to California's independence) the Oregon territory should have already given two states. And Colorado could soon become one as well.
 
Fremont winning could actually push some of the governments in the border states to actually secede. I think Tennessee and Houston (maybe even Tejas) would probably go. Violence in Missouri would likely increase tenfold and the Ozark and Chikasaw states will definitively go Confederate.

This election will very likely just prolong the war.
Yep, Fremont's presidency will most likely lead to a longer, harsher, and more costly war but also should lead to a more complete and decisive end to slavery.

I'm actually still surprised that no western state has appeared. In OTL California and Oregon already had statehood by now and Nevada as well underway. Lincoln pushed for it to get one more state. If people have been streaming west at the same pace as OTL (probably slower due to California's independence) the Oregon territory should have already given two states. And Colorado could soon become one as well.
Well, with California not in the US and the Colorado gold rush occurring earlier, there has been less incentive for migration all the way to the Pacific coast. Instead, most settlers stop at the Rockies, so you are correct that Colorado will probably become a state soon.
 
And the poll is closed!

In the Union, John C. Fremont and David Wilmot have won 48-42 against Johnson and Whitman. A well earned close victory for Fremont!

In the Confederacy, Judah P. Benjamin has crushed incumbent Howell Cobb with a 73-17 victory.

I'll put up the electoral maps soon.
 
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