Unified Iberian Peninsula

A nationalist feeling of being a different culture has been present among the the Portuguese population since at least the 14th century (I would say before, but it was strong enough to spark a revolt in 1383 against a dynastic union with Castilla-Leon). Any union from that point on is going to difficult and prone to widespread rebellions. A more successful POD would have to earlier, preferably a few centuries prior.
No, just because of a strong regional identity exists doesn't mean that it couldn't be part of a larger whole. A place can have a distinct regional identity that is not at odds with a larger national identity. A person just has to ittl believe that they can be Portuguese and Spanish and those two aspects aren't in conflict with one another. I mean hell, Spain and Portugal aren't that different in the first place, their culture while distinct is descended from the same stock.

No Arab conquest as POD the Goths had a rather united Peninsulia so how would that develop without 700 years of reconquista
While the visigoths looked like they had a United Iberia on the map, in truth they were on a shakey foundation that wasn't able to hold their dynasty, any way I think that the arab invasion did more to unify Iberia than the visigoths in the first place. My prediction, if the Arabs did not invade would be that Spain would likely try to overthrow the visigoths, what would be the outcome, no. Visigoths for sure but beyond that who knows, in such a collapse there would be many variables.
 

Lusitania

Donor
No, just because of a strong regional identity exists doesn't mean that it couldn't be part of a larger whole. A place can have a distinct regional identity that is not at odds with a larger national identity. A person just has to ittl believe that they can be Portuguese and Spanish and those two aspects aren't in conflict with one another. I mean hell, Spain and Portugal aren't that different in the first place, their culture while distinct is descended from the same stock.

Are you Portuguese? Because I do not know any who would agree with you. The idea that United Iberian peninsula could of happened if Portugal had not declared independence in 1139 from kingdom of Leon. Or might of happened in 1383 with a united Portugal/Castile country but to say in 1580 we would of been united with Spain, no.

First off the Portuguese in 1580 never joined Spain. Portugal was separate country. We just had same king. Everything from language, culture and courts were separate. Heck even the colonial empire was separate.

The Portuguese nobles continued to be Portuguese nobles not spanish. There never was any attempt to integrate the two countries and after 1580 any attempt would be required large military and resources.

So I do not know why people think the Iberian Union was a single country. Please do not confuse the Castile/Aragon Union with the Portuguese - Spain under the Iberian Union. Two separate situations.

While we also have religional differences all those in Portugal consider themselves as Portuguese that was not the case of the 1580 Iberian Union.
 
Are you Portuguese? Because I do not know any who would agree with you. The idea that United Iberian peninsula could of happened if Portugal had not declared independence in 1139 from kingdom of Leon. Or might of happened in 1383 with a united Portugal/Castile country but to say in 1580 we would of been united with Spain, no.

First off the Portuguese in 1580 never joined Spain. Portugal was separate country. We just had same king. Everything from language, culture and courts were separate. Heck even the colonial empire was separate.

The Portuguese nobles continued to be Portuguese nobles not spanish. There never was any attempt to integrate the two countries and after 1580 any attempt would be required large military and resources.

So I do not know why people think the Iberian Union was a single country. Please do not confuse the Castile/Aragon Union with the Portuguese - Spain under the Iberian Union. Two separate situations.

While we also have religional differences all those in Portugal consider themselves as Portuguese that was not the case of the 1580 Iberian Union.
Portugal's succession was more contested and then rebelled and escaped from the Habsburg's rule and that is the only (or biggest difference). Castile and Aragon had separate languages, culture and cortes and their external possediments also were kept separated (the colonial empire was Castillan, while the kingdoms of Naples, Sicily and Sardinia were under the Crown of Aragon... I do not know about the Duchy of Milan and the Spanish Netherlands but I suspect the first was under Aragon and the second either indipendent or under Castile
 
No, just because of a strong regional identity exists doesn't mean that it couldn't be part of a larger whole. A place can have a distinct regional identity that is not at odds with a larger national identity. A person just has to ittl believe that they can be Portuguese and Spanish and those two aspects aren't in conflict with one another. I mean hell, Spain and Portugal aren't that different in the first place, their culture while distinct is descended from the same stock.

The problem is that Portuguese identity sort of developed in explicit opposition to Castillan/Spanish culture. This was the case from the very beginning. As far as I know, galician was the language of the Leonese court at the time of Portuguese independance. So, independance did not really happen so much because of pre-existing cultural differences, but more because Portuguese nobles felt that they were being neglected by the crown. Portuguese culture pretty much started there, at the time of idependence, with our founding mythos, the war agaisnt the Leonese crown being an important part of it. So, in a way, the word "Portuguese" at first meant simply "Not Leonese", and later "Not Castillan" and "Not Spanish". It's true that, for a time, the word Spain meant simply the Iberian peninsula, and, in that sense, the Portuguese called themselves Spanish, but doesn't mean that they felt part of a larger Spanish polity. It's very hard to get Portuguese people to believe that they can be Portuguese and Spanish at the same time simply because a huge part of Portuguese identity was built in opposition to the remaining Iberian nations.

Now, that said, I don't believe we necessarily need to have a PoD that goes back to the medieval ages in order to get a unified iberian peninsula. All we need is an alternate Iberian Union that consistently manages to secure the interests of Portuguese elites. Economic advantages will always speak louder than cultural and identity issues. If the Portuguese economy keeps doing fine for a while under a union with Spain, then I can see Portugual becoming progressively more integrated into a larger iberian polity. But in order to get that the Spanish are going to have to spend less money on Europeans wars and more on protecting Portuguese overseas possessions and trade ventures, and I'm not sure if you can have that with an Habsburg monarchy...
 

Lusitania

Donor
The problem is that Portuguese identity sort of developed in explicit opposition to Castillan/Spanish culture. This was the case from the very beginning. As far as I know, galician was the language of the Leonese court at the time of Portuguese independance. So, independance did not really happen so much because of pre-existing cultural differences, but more because Portuguese nobles felt that they were being neglected by the crown. Portuguese culture pretty much started there, at the time of idependence, with our founding mythos, the war agaisnt the Leonese crown being an important part of it. So, in a way, the word "Portuguese" at first meant simply "Not Leonese", and later "Not Castillan" and "Not Spanish". It's true that, for a time, the word Spain meant simply the Iberian peninsula, and, in that sense, the Portuguese called themselves Spanish, but doesn't mean that they felt part of a larger Spanish polity. It's very hard to get Portuguese people to believe that they can be Portuguese and Spanish at the same time simply because a huge part of Portuguese identity was built in opposition to the remaining Iberian nations.

Now, that said, I don't believe we necessarily need to have a PoD that goes back to the medieval ages in order to get a unified iberian peninsula. All we need is an alternate Iberian Union that consistently manages to secure the interests of Portuguese elites. Economic advantages will always speak louder than cultural and identity issues. If the Portuguese economy keeps doing fine for a while under a union with Spain, then I can see Portugual becoming progressively more integrated into a larger iberian polity. But in order to get that the Spanish are going to have to spend less money on Europeans wars and more on protecting Portuguese overseas possessions and trade ventures, and I'm not sure if you can have that with an Habsburg monarchy...
As I had stated before an Iberian Union that was centered on the Iberian peninsula and its colonial empires (both Spanish and Portuguese) could of worked. If Spanish king had utilized Portuguese naval power with Spanish military power to expand and hold both countries vast colonial empire then yes we could of had a happy Union. But as long as spanish interests lay in Habsburg Europe as per iOTL the union would not of worked.
 
Last edited:
Top