Unified Iberian Peninsula

A surviving Prince Alphonso would be a great thing. It prevents the jews (perhaps?) from being kicked out of Portugal and brings Isabella of Aragon, next in line for the Spanish thrones after her brother's death a potential strong partner. Let them have five living children with atleast two sons and you are all set.
 
A surviving Prince Alphonso would be a great thing. It prevents the jews (perhaps?) from being kicked out of Portugal and brings Isabella of Aragon, next in line for the Spanish thrones after her brother's death a potential strong partner. Let them have five living children with atleast two sons and you are all set.
Better go with Manuel and Isabella. Alfonso of Portugal, unluckily for Isabella (who loved him) was not destined to have a long life and his succession in Spain would not be a paceful one, like Philip and Joanna in OTL and unlike an eventual succession of Manuel and Isabella
 
Yes but I think that has been written about in few TL. The purpose of this thread unfortunetly was the 1580 union which as indicated by others was already too late and the Spanish royalty already hijacked by the Habsburg.
Manuel and Isabella or Miguel da Paz? Yes, there are some tl about them...

A survival of Maria Manuela or at least of her line (aka grandchildren) would butterfly the short reign of Cardinal Henry and give to Spain an immediate and uncontested succession to the crown of Portugal after Sebastain's death as either the Queen of Spain or the prince/princess of Asturias (aka a child of Don Carlos) would be the strongest claimant to Portugal (as descendant of John III and not only of Manuel I)
 

Lusitania

Donor
Manuel and Isabella or Miguel da Paz? Yes, there are some tl about them...

A survival of Maria Manuela or at least of her line (aka grandchildren) would butterfly the short reign of Cardinal Henry and give to Spain an immediate and uncontested succession to the crown of Portugal after Sebastain's death as either the Queen of Spain or the prince/princess of Asturias (aka a child of Don Carlos) would be the strongest claimant to Portugal (as descendant of John III and not only of Manuel I)
Don't count your chickens yet. We may still have the joint Portuguese/Castilian king and both countries' nobles all killed or captured in their own battle of Alcácer Quibir.
 
I don't see why a surviving Alphonso should be worse than Manuel for Isabella. It spares her a shitton of sorrow, it prevents the jews from being kicked out (atleast temporary) and I don't see why the son of goddamned John II of Portugal should be a able monarch.
 

Lusitania

Donor
I don't see why a surviving Alphonso should be worse than Manuel for Isabella. It spares her a shitton of sorrow, it prevents the jews from being kicked out (atleast temporary) and I don't see why the son of goddamned John II of Portugal should be a able monarch.
Ok those very strong negative feelings towards our beloved King John II. Are there some issues you would like to share with us. It not good to keep those negative feelings inside.
 
Wo
Yes but we are not talking about political but in culture and language.

The union of Portugal with Spain did not focus Spanish king on the Iberian peninsula from 1580-1640. So why would the failure of Portugal from seceding from Union make Spain more focuses? Portugal would of suffered like Aragon did and loose even more of its identity and independence. Resentment would of continued or grown towards Madrid since till 1640 Portugal was its own country not part of Spain. Would Spain try to integrate Portugal into Spain?

Which bring me to a question that been bugging me for awhile. The Union of Portugal and Spain was not the same as the union of Castile and Aragon into single country. Portugal was a separate country, we just shared the same king. So how would the failure of 1640 rebellion change that?

Would have not would of

A Spain that keeps Portugal must by definition do more to keep Portugal otherwise we're not doing the what if. Ways it can keep Portugal require culture conversion ala Scotland and UK
 
IMHO, they best POD is Portugal (and Castille) not separating from Leon. Now, that might have left Basques and Aragon-Catalonia out, but for all intents and purposes....
 

Lusitania

Donor
IMHO, they best POD is Portugal (and Castille) not separating from Leon. Now, that might have left Basques and Aragon-Catalonia out, but for all intents and purposes....

Yes but we talking about a 12 century POD. That is way beyond anything we talked about before. For at that time there were separate kingdoms but not really separate nations with different written language and so forth. (Heck half those nobles were probably illiterate).
 

Lusitania

Donor
Wo


Would have not would of

A Spain that keeps Portugal must by definition do more to keep Portugal otherwise we're not doing the what if. Ways it can keep Portugal require culture conversion ala Scotland and UK
But 1600 is very late. The language had already started changing. National identity existed already. So any attempt to incorporate Portugal would of required occupying troops and resistance from Portuguese. With all of Spain’s other problems that would not helped and made the union even more fragile. The Portuguese colonial loses would of been exaggerated and that would of resulted in increase in Portuguese anger at Spain. For the Portuguese blamed Spain for its loses already this would make it worse.

If Spain had tons of resources and soldiers guess they could make it stick Nembutal the 1630s succession wars be even bloodier for some in Portugal never accept Spain annexation of Portugal.
 
That being said, if you want a united Iberia to work, then the 1580 union isn't a very good starting point to begin with. By 1580 the national consciousness and overall trajectories of Spain and Portugal had already been clearly defined - the War of the Castilian Succession, the Treaty of Alcáçovas, and the Treaty of Tordesillas had all neatly delineated the long term interests of the Avis realm of Portugal and the Trastámara realm of Castile-Aragon. The growing feelings of cultural and national estrangement between these two kingdoms would be further accentuated by their individual points of pride: the conquest of Mexico and Peru or the discovery of India and China were considered Castilian or Portuguese accomplishments, respectively, not Iberian or Spanish ones. Another factor was the Habsburg inheritance of Castile-Aragon - the Habsburgs were, after all, a dynasty of foreign extraction that had not taken part in the Reconquista, the defining Iberian cultural experience - and it took a few generations for even the Castilians and Aragonese to begin to consider their Habsburg rulers as truly Spanish. By 1580, the Castilian-Portuguese rivalry is already cemented, with the two no longer viewing each other merely as fellow Iberians, but as untrustworthy foreigners with adverse designs on one another. One can see this rivalry play out with all its disastrous effects in the East Indies, where the Castilians and Portuguese were exceedingly reluctant to offer each other assistance, resulting in the Dutch essentially making off with the greater part of the Portuguese maritime empire.

You could say very similar things about England and Scotland and they successfully unified. The reality is that, like most of Euroe, widespread nationalism didn't exist in Iberia until centuries later. You had such thoughts among the nobles, but their views get so diluted by the expansion of the suffrage it doesn't matter. Most people identified with their economic class and their town and village. While you're always going to get modern nationalist separatists harking back to past achievements of your particular region/nation, whether that feeling is sufficiently widespread to force independence is very much up for grabs. As long as the differences (particularly linguistic and institutional) are substantially washed away by the age of popular nationalism (in OTL the 1790s onwards, but could be delayed), you can reduce Portuguese pride to being a regional thing, like being Cornish or Texan or Tuscan.

Have the Iberian Union last longer, and have some popular King before 1700 bribe and blackmail his way to integrating the Cortez, have an Iberian resurgence that the populous take pride in, and standardise the Iberian language with bits of Catalan and Portuguese prior to mass education and Portuguese separatism will be something people roll their eyes at. Those things aren't easy to do, but they're certainly possible.
 
I don't see why a surviving Alphonso should be worse than Manuel for Isabella. It spares her a shitton of sorrow, it prevents the jews from being kicked out (atleast temporary) and I don't see why the son of goddamned John II of Portugal should be a able monarch.
Because Ferdinand and Isabella (of Castile) hated him because his father and grandfather were their worst enemies and would have done anything for preventing him from inheriting Castile and Aragon (and likely Alfonso's death was ordered by them)? Manuel came from another line, was a cousin of Isabella and like them was an enemy of John... A succession of Alfonso as King Consort in either Castile or Aragon would have been much more contrasted than that of Philip of Burgundy in Castile in OTL
Isabella jr surely would be happy to stay married to her beloved husband and not being forced to remarry to his uncle Manuel but her parents were really happy for the early death of Alfonso (and likely ordered it themselves)
 
Negative feelings? Towards my King of Kings, my bae John of Portugal????!!! Blashemy!
I Adore that man, I really do, almost as much as I adore Catherine of Aragon.

I do believe that if Isabella and Alphonso had children that their oldest son would have inherited their realms.
 

Lusitania

Donor
You could say very similar things about England and Scotland and they successfully unified. The reality is that, like most of Euroe, widespread nationalism didn't exist in Iberia until centuries later. You had such thoughts among the nobles, but their views get so diluted by the expansion of the suffrage it doesn't matter. Most people identified with their economic class and their town and village. While you're always going to get modern nationalist separatists harking back to past achievements of your particular region/nation, whether that feeling is sufficiently widespread to force independence is very much up for grabs. As long as the differences (particularly linguistic and institutional) are substantially washed away by the age of popular nationalism (in OTL the 1790s onwards, but could be delayed), you can reduce Portuguese pride to being a regional thing, like being Cornish or Texan or Tuscan.

Have the Iberian Union last longer, and have some popular King before 1700 bribe and blackmail his way to integrating the Cortez, have an Iberian resurgence that the populous take pride in, and standardise the Iberian language with bits of Catalan and Portuguese prior to mass education and Portuguese separatism will be something people roll their eyes at. Those things aren't easy to do, but they're certainly possible.

Sorry but Portuguese nationalism including a different written and spoken language already existed in 1580.

In 1580 Spain had its hands full and the fact they controlled the kingdom was sufficient and the resentment actually came later when mismanagement caused resentment amongst nobles to grow. The Spanish never made any moves to integrate the two countries so to do so would of changed the Iberian Union and required major changes to Spanish policies and its resources.

Please do not confuse UK integration with Iberian Union two completely different scenarios.
 
Sorry but Portuguese nationalism including a different written and spoken language already existed in 1580.

In 1580 Spain had its hands full and the fact they controlled the kingdom was sufficient and the resentment actually came later when mismanagement caused resentment amongst nobles to grow. The Spanish never made any moves to integrate the two countries so to do so would of changed the Iberian Union and required major changes to Spanish policies and its resources.

Please do not confuse UK integration with Iberian Union two completely different scenarios.
How is the integration of Scotland different exactly. Sure the Spanish IOTL defiantly mismanaged the country, but if they sacrifice something in another area (the Netherlands) they could do it.
 

Lusitania

Donor
How is the integration of Scotland different exactly. Sure the Spanish IOTL defiantly mismanaged the country, but if they sacrifice something in another area (the Netherlands) they could do it.

But are you talking about in 1580 they decide they going to conquer the country or sometime after? Because your answer changes how the union takes place. After 1580 are the Spanish going to send their troops to Brazil, Africa and India and replace the Portuguese?

What language did Scotland speak? Same as England?

The union was never implemented the same way.

I guess the Spanish could of sacrifice Netherlands and other European holdings but then you talking about the Spanish looking bad and weak. No the Spanish once they committed to the Hapsburg shit they were stuck. They were locked into a major political tug of war with their rival France.

We already had several discussions about Spain not being stuck with Habsburg shit and concentrate on Iberian peninsula. Sure they could of integrated the country then and over time present a unified country. Spain’s armies and Portuguese navy.


But that not what we talking about. We talking about iOTL Spain with all its baggage trying to hold onto the Portuguese throne. Spain had fewer and fewer supporters in the country so that by 1640 there was no Portuguese noble who supported the Spanish king.
 
Yes but we talking about a 12 century POD. That is way beyond anything we talked about before. For at that time there were separate kingdoms but not really separate nations with different written language and so forth. (Heck half those nobles were probably illiterate).

That's exactly the reason I proposed that as POD.
 
A nationalist feeling of being a different culture has been present among the the Portuguese population since at least the 14th century (I would say before, but it was strong enough to spark a revolt in 1383 against a dynastic union with Castilla-Leon). Any union from that point on is going to difficult and prone to widespread rebellions. A more successful POD would have to earlier, preferably a few centuries prior.
 
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