Unification of the Byzantine successor states

[ar-pharazon]

So after 1204 the Byzantine empires's successors were the empire of Nicaea, the despotate of Morea, and the empire of Trebizond.

How with a POD of 1204 can we have these empires reunified either through conquest or diplomacy?

And if these states can be reunified how does this impact the fortune and longevity of the Byzantine empire?

 

[Wendell]

Are we talking about Nicaea, Epirus, and Trebizond or others too?

 

[GauchoBadger]

IIRC, the Morean Despotate only sprung to life in the 14th century, and reached its zenith in the period prior to the 1453 Siege of Constantinople.

 

[ar-pharazon]

Are we talking about Nicaea, Epirus, and Trebizond or others too?

We are talking about the three states that succeeded the fall of Byzantium in 1204.

 

[GauchoBadger]

We are talking about the three states that succeeded the fall of Byzantium in 1204.

Well, the three states he mentioned are those you're looking for. Morea only went back to Byzantine hands during the Palaiologoi period.

 

[ar-pharazon]

Ah well then historical error on my part-unification of Nicaea, Epirus, and Trebizond.

 

[ByzantineLover]

I'd say the best chance would be a survival of Theodore II Laskaris (with or without epilepsy), who can take full advantage of a victory at a Battle of Pelagonia analogue, and who can strengthen and expand the Nicaean presence in Anatolia following the Mongol invasion.

 

[Wendell]

You could do this with a POD in the 1320's.

 

[DocJamore]

Maybe there could be a unification but eventually there would be another schism and everything would fall apart again. The Byzantines were infamous for their civil wars. Look at this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Byzantine_revolts_and_civil_wars

 

[Wendell]

Maybe there could be a unification but eventually there would be another schism and everything would fall apart again. The Byzantines were infamous for their civil wars. Look at this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Byzantine_revolts_and_civil_wars

Most if not all of the fourteenth century civil wars were avoidable.

 

[DocJamore]

Most if not all of the fourteenth century civil wars were avoidable.

One or two could be avoid. Most or all or them could not be. It is silly to even suggest that. People in the past were not omniscient oracles and gods with our modern values of hindsight, they were people and reacted to the world that they lived in. If the Byzantine empire suffered from epidemic civil wars and rebellions throughout its whole history, that is not something that we can wave a wand and say "problem solved". It was an inherent weakness in how their government worked. They would continue to have civil wars and to suggest otherwise is ASB.

 

[Wendell]

One or two could be avoid. Most or all or them could not be. It is silly to even suggest that. People in the past were not omniscient oracles and gods with our modern values of hindsight, they were people and reacted to the world that they lived in. If the Byzantine empire suffered from epidemic civil wars and rebellions throughout its whole history, that is not something that we can wave a wand and say "problem solved". It was an inherent weakness in how their government worked. They would continue to have civil wars and to suggest otherwise is ASB.

The Palaiologoi were a mostly worthless dynasty. End them in the thirteen twenties and you've reduced the impetus for the later civil wars wile potentially increasing the prospects for internal stability and growth.

 

[ar-pharazon]

I just think that if you can retake Constantinople, and unite Nicaea, Epirus, and Trebizond as well as reconquer at least part of if not all of Greece(a tall order I know) then that dramatically helps the Byzantines in the long run.

 

[Wendell]

I just think that if you can retake Constantinople, and unite Nicaea, Epirus, and Trebizond as well as reconquer at least part of if not all of Greece(a tall order I know) then that dramatically helps the Byzantines in the long run.

I don't think you need Trebizond in order to do this.

 

[ar-pharazon]

I don't think you need Trebizond in order to do this.

Trebizond does get you closer to Crimea and gives you more clout in the Black Sea trade.

It also gives you a toehold into the caucusus.

 

[Wendell]

Trebizond does get you closer to Crimea and gives you more clout in the Black Sea trade.

It also gives you a toehold into the caucusus.

It's also impossible to defend without a reliable navy.

 

[LoneWolfEkb]

Andronicus III did reconquer Epirus before dying prematurely, which kicked in the destructive civil war which basically ended ERE as a viable state at all.

 

[Magnum]

The Seljuk Turks win this battle, killing Theodore Laskaris. In desperation, the Anatolian magnates turn to David Komnenos, who's in Phalphagonia. Then have either David or his brother die, and that gets you Trebizond and Nicaea.

Next have Theodore Komnenos Doukas win this battle, or better yet have him not fight it at all, and march on Constantinople instead.

Finally, have a decisive battle where the heads of the Komnenos and Komnenos-Doukas families (in control of Anatolia+Trebizond and Epirus+Thrace respectively) fight for control of the empire, and get one to decisively defeat the other. Easy as pie.

There are ample ways to get a reunification in the chaos that was the early XIIIth century. You can get just about any result you want, even an Angeloi restoration on the backs of the Seljuks

 

[TheCataphract]

It's also impossible to defend without a reliable navy.

No it isn't, Trebizond was a very well fortified city. Even at Trebizond's weakest when it could barely put together a couple thousand troops it was able to repel a seljuk siege.

It was also quite wealthy thanks to the Silk Road.

 

[Halagaz]

even an Angeloi restoration on the backs of the Seljuks

I forgot how much of a nuisance Alexios III was, even after he lost the throne. The Angeloi were a mistake.