Unholy Roman Empire

[Midgard]

Arg. The mongols never get a break. They come in, see, and then retreat. Arg.

Well, the Mongols are going to behave similarly to OTL... besides changing few dates due to butterflies, they are not going to build any more of an empire than they did in OTL, not the lasting one anyway.

It's a good installment and I love the map. No real criticism except that I want the UHRE to survive. How come France managed to get a bit of Germany on the Eastern bit?

No worries, UHRE (well, HRE for some time now) is going to survive, albeit in a rather different condition, being based around Sicily as a powerbase, and with Germany coming and going. As for France getting Eastern Germany, that could be probably blamed on my map-making skills; one could always rationalize that few of the local barons decided to throw their lot in with the French king while still giving lip service to the Emperor in Sicily.

Thank you for the comments, the next update should be up some time before the end of the week.

 

[fhaessig]

Thanks for this instalment. This is TL is great.

ABout german barons giving fealty to Louis, I think this is possible on the borders, but the map give too much. Let's say that it was made by a french monk trying to curry favor. ( It includes the bishopric of Koln - the prince-bishop of which did vote for the Emperor - ). Alsace is unlikely, IMO, as a lot of it was direct Hohenstaffen land ( and very loyal ). That leaves about some german lands bordering Flanders.

BTW, I seem to have missed something. What is Friesland and how did it come into being?

 

[Midgard]

Thanks for this instalment. This is TL is great.

ABout german barons giving fealty to Louis, I think this is possible on the borders, but the map give too much. Let's say that it was made by a french monk trying to curry favor. ( It includes the bishopric of Koln - the prince-bishop of which did vote for the Emperor - ). Alsace is unlikely, IMO, as a lot of it was direct Hohenstaffen land ( and very loyal ). That leaves about some german lands bordering Flanders.

True, the French-German border is probably quite messed up on the map; I did it rather arbitrary. The next map installment (which would probably cover the situation about 1300 or so, when I get to it) will definitely correct that.

BTW, I seem to have missed something. What is Friesland and how did it come into being?

I was just using the Euratlas maps for 1200 and 1300, trying to find a middle ground; I believe Friesland at this stage was a set of tribal principalities that could successfully resist German incursions, but not more; AFAIK in OTL they were not incorporated into German lands until XVth century. I just went with something relatively close to OTL for that.

Thank you for the feedback!

 

[Condottiero]

You have changed sides to Leon and Castille. Navarra did not have a coast unless they have annexed the Basque Lordships.

I have not read attentively the TL but Aragon should have had by then the rule of James I "the conqueror" and ended their Reconquista. Portugal should be about to end it, but not yet. Castille should have annexed Leon and would be already by the Guadalquivir valley after taking Seville and Cordoba.

 

[Midgard]

You have changed sides to Leon and Castille. Navarra did not have a coast unless they have annexed the Basque Lordships.

I have not read attentively the TL but Aragon should have had by then the rule of James I "the conqueror" and ended their Reconquista. Portugal should be about to end it, but not yet. Castille should have annexed Leon and would be already by the Guadalquivir valley after taking Seville and Cordoba.

For the situation in Iberia, I was mostly using Euratlas maps of 1200 and 1300 respectively - more so the former, since due to butterflies Granada/The Almohads are quite a bit stronger, and were able to push the Christians back a bit to resemble the situation around 1200. Both maps do show Navarra with a coastline, so I went ahead and put it as such; while I did not focus too much on the Iberian situation in the TL, I figured out through the butterflies of completely different IIIrd Crusade (and its consequences), and slightly (but meaningfully) different Albigensian crusade Castille does not annex Leon - Ferdinand III did not do it until 1230 or so in OTL, and by 1230 there are enough butterflies to where he is either born a different individual (being born in 1199 or 1200), or does not get a chance to reincorporate Leon. Given that his father Alfonso had quite a few problems with the Pope due to his string of marriages, with different Papacies and whatnot (or at least with the Papacy more under control of the Emperor at the time) it might have even resulted in different wives and children for him, and different succession (AFAIK Alfonso wanted to disinherit Ferdinand - he almost succeeded in getting John of Brienne, who in OTL ended up the Emperor of the Latin Empire in Constantinople, to succeed him on the throne of Castille).

 

[Hierophant]

Deal With The Devil (1243 – 1250)

And now for a special treat - a map! It should give a rough idea of where everyone and everything is, although I do not quite pretend to have the map making ability - excuse the somewhat haphazard appearance thereof.

Wouldnt the state you have labled wales be better known as cornwall, since all of what Wales constitues seems to be part of England?

 

[Midgard]

Wouldnt the state you have labled wales be better known as cornwall, since all of what Wales constitues seems to be part of England?

That's pretty much a screwup on my part, Wales should be, well, territorially close to OTL Wales.

 

[Condottiero]

due to butterflies Granada/The Almohads are quite a bit stronger, and were able to push the Christians back a bit to resemble the situation around 1200.

Then why did the Portuguese end the Reconquista on their side? I cannot understan... except for more butterflies.

 

[Midgard]

Then why did the Portuguese end the Reconquista on their side? I cannot understan... except for more butterflies.

For Portugal, I was using 1200 or so borders, which are almost frighteningly close to modern OTL ones; I figured out they went after smaller taifa kingdoms there, whereas the Almohad power was centered in Granada, albeit more so extended than it is in OTL. In OTL, Portugal did end their reconquista in 1250 so it is not too far off (although I know it sounds like a contradiction in principle). This still would, however, warrant adjusting Portugal's border a bit to not show them more successful with their reconquista whereas the other kingdoms are less so.

Thus, without further adieu, here is the map featuring the corrections mentioned before, and few others:

1) Fixed Wales, which occupies the territory it should have instead of Cornwall (which is given to France)

2) Adjusted borders in Russia, diminishing Halych-Volhyn, and giving extra territory to the Mongol Horde and its dependent tribes

3) Diminished the borders of Georgia, giving some of it to the Mongols.

4) Adjusted Iberian borders, giving Portugal less territory in the south, but giving Aragon a bit more territory at the expense of the Almohads/Granada.

5) Genoa seemed to have too much territory by Languedoc, so I gave some of it back to France

6) Adjusted French/German border, although I did not specify which of German states are loyal to the 'Staufens, and which only pay lip service.

Any opinions are definitely welcome!

 

[MerryPrankster]

How did the French end up with southern England?

 

[Midgard]

How did the French end up with southern England?

Richard Cour-de-Lion's survival due to different IIIrd Crusade resulted in long, drawn-out series of civil wars, incompetent kings, and whatnot; the First Barons War involving the French King Louis VIII begun similar to OTL, but was more of an all-out conflict, with Louis claiming the English throne (which was offered to him by the barons). Here, no strong successor to John Lackland emerged, and as a result some of the English barons simply chose to pledge allegiance to the French king, who still has a claim to the throne of England.

 

[Nicole]

Do the Lithuanians rule all those islands in the Baltic, or am I just being too picky?

 

[Midgard]

Do the Lithuanians rule all those islands in the Baltic, or am I just being too picky?

The Baltic islands, well, never really thought much about them; I'd imagine that for the most part they are no-man's land, occupied mostly by various pirate lords and whatnot. I'd imagine that for all purposes, there are few outposts of Swedes, Novgorodians, Lithuanians, and just about everyone else there, but no real control other than few more strategically important areas.

 

[Nicole]

Two more points...
In Spain, I believe Castile was the center country and Leon was west of that, it seems to be reversed.
Also, something looks off about Sweden, though I'm not sure... Just a rought map and I'm being too picky, I guess.

 

[Midgard]

Two more points...
In Spain, I believe Castile was the center country and Leon was west of that, it seems to be reversed.

You're right, I must have gotten the two mixed up.

Also, something looks off about Sweden, though I'm not sure... Just a rought map and I'm being too picky, I guess.

Sweden's eastern border is something I pretty much just made up, as it was not really represented as far north on the map I was using as reference; Danish control of southern Sweden is actually somewhat historical, at least about 1200 or so.

 

[Galbatorix]

Then why did the Portuguese end the Reconquista on their side? I cannot understan... except for more butterflies.

you can have that by making the Navas de tolosa a victory from the Almohades. the allied christian army is badly defeated, the kings of castille, aragon or navarra may be killed and the almoahdes recover most of the lost territory. the only christian kingdom to survive the disaster is leon. the portuguese, the castillians and the aragonese can suffer the wrath of the almohade army while leon (that was neutral against the almohades) and navarre protected in the north survive quite untouched. we can have a diferent iberian peninsula where the power is balanced between the almohades, leon and navarre, with aragon a minor character (they will have to concentrate to survive), castille partitioned between leon and navarre and portugal absorbed by leon.

by the way navarre did not have that coastline, the basque lordships were in castillian hands since the previous century.

 

[Faeelin]

Hmm. OTL the North German princes drove out the Danes on their own; what changed?

 

[Midgard]

Hmm. OTL the North German princes drove out the Danes on their own; what changed?

I just used around 1200 AD borders, figuring out that with all the struggles going on the butterflies could lead to the Danes staying where they were. The Danes, however, are not truly a major power at this point, more of a regional/local one...

 

[Midgard]

you can have that by making the Navas de tolosa a victory from the Almohades. the allied christian army is badly defeated, the kings of castille, aragon or navarra may be killed and the almoahdes recover most of the lost territory. the only christian kingdom to survive the disaster is leon. the portuguese, the castillians and the aragonese can suffer the wrath of the almohade army while leon (that was neutral against the almohades) and navarre protected in the north survive quite untouched. we can have a diferent iberian peninsula where the power is balanced between the almohades, leon and navarre, with aragon a minor character (they will have to concentrate to survive), castille partitioned between leon and navarre and portugal absorbed by leon.

by the way navarre did not have that coastline, the basque lordships were in castillian hands since the previous century.

As far as Navas de Tolosa, it went similar to OTL, maybe with less of a completely crushing defeat for the Almohands, but still a defeat. What differs is what happened afterwards. The Christian kingdoms started pushing against the Muslims, but not as intensely as in OTL - still enough though for the Almohands/Granadans to get really worried. When the Cathars, their sympathizers, and much of population of parts of Languedoc settled in remaining lands of Granada, it suddenly gave the Muslims enough manpower to attempt to retake the lands lost, which they were able to do. Since the Christian kingdoms begun to squabble among themselves almost the second after the victory, they were not able to unite against resurgent Granada, restoring the status quo to an extent as a result.

What I am going for is a moderately strong Granada, not strong enough to conquer the entire peninsula, but able to keep a decent-sized chunk of Iberia to itself. The escape of Cathars and their supporters will play a major role further down the line in this story, although it may be a very long time before it shows exactly what it is meant to mean.

 

[Hierophant]

It would be interesting if Novgorod survived and united the east instead of Muscovy.

Or maybe both survive. Maybe in the far future you have two russias, one with a long history of slowly democratizing government and the other locked in an autocratic tsardom.