Well, one of the posts suggests that Australia is getting it's immigrants from debt prisons. Were those prisons mostly filled with Irish?
Under the Southern Cross We Stand
- Thread starter johnboy
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Well, one of the posts suggests that Australia is getting it's immigrants from debt prisons. Were those prisons mostly filled with Irish?
November 1809 - A surprise for the New South Wales Corps
16th November 1807, Sydney Cove, Colony of New South Wales
Philip Gridley King, Governor, smiled a razor sharp smile at the arrival of the convoy of ships. It had taken some doing, but his reputation in London had been well inflated these last three years since the 1804 rebellion and his willingness to take charge of the various Irish rebels and floor sweepings confined to prison hulks in the Thames and English Naval bases had only further boosted his position but his reputation as a man of foresight.
This had allowed him to weather a storm of criticism from the New South Wales Corps, the former 102nd Regiment of Foot but had also helped him to convince himself that the New South Wales Corps and it’s principle supporters would never change, being to mired in the profits made by keeping the status quo.
The main reason he had suffered the abuse of the officers of the New South Wales Corps was itself quite simple. He favoured giving opportunities as they occurred to emancipists. How else could such an isolated colony survive? Use must be made of those prepared to mend their former indiscretions. Convicts, not free setters formed the main basis of the colony and there must be methods of allowing such men and women to contribute in a positive manner. Ex-convicts should not remain in disgrace forever, therefore, he appointed emancipists to positions of responsibility, regulated the position of assigned servants and laid the foundation of the system where former convicts could again become free men. Yet he had been patient and his patience had paid off.
It was a system that had not been well received by the officers of the New South Wales Corps, who had subjected him to all sorts of abuse both direct and indirect and formed various complaints to London. Yet he had his own allies, as shown by the presence of the ten vessels currently anchored off Government House. He had sought such allies and a reliable man to replace him, preferably an Army man that would engender greater loyalty than himself. Lachlan Macquarie was such a man and in the New Year he would turn over his authority and retire here, his son having come out with the small fleet.
King watched as the first men disembarked and marched to Government House. He strained to hear the troops singing a marching song.
“Then fall in lads behind the drum
With colours blazing like the sun.
Along the road to come what may
Over the hills and far away.
If I should fall to rise no more,
As many comrades did before,
Ask the fifes and drums to play
Over the hills and far away.
Though kings and tyrants come and go
A soldier's life is all I know
I'll live to fight another day
Over the hills and far away.”
The 73rd Regiment of Foot continued to disembark, signaling the effective end to the New South Wales Corps, which would be following the arrived fleet back to England forthwith. Johnson and his ally John MacArthur had been outmaneuvered for now and the practice of accepting payment in rum for work, necessary perhaps up to this time, could be discontinued gradually once a proper Bank had been established, a proposal that had previously met stiff resistance from the New South Wales Corps, so stiff that he had been forced to secure himself bodyguards.
Philip Gridley King, Governor, smiled a razor sharp smile at the arrival of the convoy of ships. It had taken some doing, but his reputation in London had been well inflated these last three years since the 1804 rebellion and his willingness to take charge of the various Irish rebels and floor sweepings confined to prison hulks in the Thames and English Naval bases had only further boosted his position but his reputation as a man of foresight.
This had allowed him to weather a storm of criticism from the New South Wales Corps, the former 102nd Regiment of Foot but had also helped him to convince himself that the New South Wales Corps and it’s principle supporters would never change, being to mired in the profits made by keeping the status quo.
The main reason he had suffered the abuse of the officers of the New South Wales Corps was itself quite simple. He favoured giving opportunities as they occurred to emancipists. How else could such an isolated colony survive? Use must be made of those prepared to mend their former indiscretions. Convicts, not free setters formed the main basis of the colony and there must be methods of allowing such men and women to contribute in a positive manner. Ex-convicts should not remain in disgrace forever, therefore, he appointed emancipists to positions of responsibility, regulated the position of assigned servants and laid the foundation of the system where former convicts could again become free men. Yet he had been patient and his patience had paid off.
It was a system that had not been well received by the officers of the New South Wales Corps, who had subjected him to all sorts of abuse both direct and indirect and formed various complaints to London. Yet he had his own allies, as shown by the presence of the ten vessels currently anchored off Government House. He had sought such allies and a reliable man to replace him, preferably an Army man that would engender greater loyalty than himself. Lachlan Macquarie was such a man and in the New Year he would turn over his authority and retire here, his son having come out with the small fleet.
King watched as the first men disembarked and marched to Government House. He strained to hear the troops singing a marching song.
“Then fall in lads behind the drum
With colours blazing like the sun.
Along the road to come what may
Over the hills and far away.
If I should fall to rise no more,
As many comrades did before,
Ask the fifes and drums to play
Over the hills and far away.
Though kings and tyrants come and go
A soldier's life is all I know
I'll live to fight another day
Over the hills and far away.”
The 73rd Regiment of Foot continued to disembark, signaling the effective end to the New South Wales Corps, which would be following the arrived fleet back to England forthwith. Johnson and his ally John MacArthur had been outmaneuvered for now and the practice of accepting payment in rum for work, necessary perhaps up to this time, could be discontinued gradually once a proper Bank had been established, a proposal that had previously met stiff resistance from the New South Wales Corps, so stiff that he had been forced to secure himself bodyguards.
Interesting update; noticed that the 73rd Regiment of Foot came to Australia 2 years before OTL and, also, that William Bligh (of Mutiny on the Bounty fame (1)) was never governor of New South Wales...
The butterflies are starting to flap, I notice...
(1) Bligh was actually no different from many other RN captains of his time, it should be pointed out, and was not the ogre portrayed in Mutiny on the Bounty; there's also something awesome, IMO, say what you will about Bligh, about being set adrift in a launch 3,000 miles from the nearest European settlement (Timor) and managing to navigate all the way there safely without losing a man...
The butterflies are starting to flap, I notice...
(1) Bligh was actually no different from many other RN captains of his time, it should be pointed out, and was not the ogre portrayed in Mutiny on the Bounty; there's also something awesome, IMO, say what you will about Bligh, about being set adrift in a launch 3,000 miles from the nearest European settlement (Timor) and managing to navigate all the way there safely without losing a man...
December 1822 - A look at the Macquarie era
Extract from “The Autocratic Era- the early Governors of New South Wales”, Denly Press, 1950
The twelve year term of Lachlan Macquarie as Governor of New South Wales was a far reaching one indeed. It was a time of rapid growth and expansion, not only in land holdings but also in population. Lachlan Macquarie was to die back in Scotland in relative obscurity, indeed portrayed by many as a man of strange ideas, but in Australasia many consider him a nation builder and the “father of Australasia”.
Macquarie saw the future of the colony as to provide an opportunity for former convicts to start a new life and begin again after a period of punishment for their crimes. He saw Australasia as a new land where those without opportunities to advance themselves in both Ireland and England could come and advance themselves and their station in life. It was a view that frequently brought him into conflict with his superiors in London, who did not espouse similar views.
At the end of Macquarie’s tenure in 1822, we see what was to later become Western Australia colonized and the first convicts arrive at such a station in the following year. This followed the settlement of the Morton Bay district two years earlier than planned, in 1820. In fact at the end of Macquarie’s tenure he had effective control over not only what is now New South Wales but also what is now Queensland, Tasmania, New Zealand, Norfolk Island, Macquarie Island, New Caledonia and Western Australia. Near sixty thousand people, both convict and free settler, lay scattered across these territories.
Macquarie was to create the first real police force in 1810. He was to break the importation and use of rum as a currency, granting and taxing the privilege of importing liquor into the colonies. Despite objections by many in London, Macquarie had actively canvassed for more free settlers, a fine prospect for many of Wellington’s veterans that came back to England in 1814 with no jobs and little in the way of prospects. The ready availability of land grants to such former soldiers was to spark a wave of immigration. Without a war to prosecute, the number of convicts transported to Australia was to also leap dramatically. Some 21,000 are sent between 1817 and 1822 alone, severely testing the Colonial authority ability to be able to physically guard and deal with such numbers and also hampering Macquarie’s ability to comply with London’s wishes to cut expenses.
None the less, a proper Court was established in 1815, rendering redundant a need to contact London to determine sentences for more serious crimes. Macquarie established “counties”, forbidding settlement in some so as to appease Aboriginal people that their lands would be protected.
For all this, there were certain areas in failure of policy. One of these was in relations with natives. Macquarie had been inclined to as conciliatory as possible, favouring treaties and had established native schools and a forum where both parties could meet. Despite these seemingly sensible acts, many settlers ignored prohibitions in regards non settlement in reserved areas, provoking confrontations that became increasingly common. The constant stream of complaints from influential people who also had supporters in London eventually influenced Macquarie to abandon a number of these conciliatory policies and instead embark troops on a number of punitive expeditions against that only further raised tensions and led to more conflict. Likewise, the very large numbers of convicts transported and the consequent strain on infrastructure was to see a sharp increase in absconding, with increasing numbers of men turning to bush ranging.
Eventually, Macquarie’s detractors were to have their way. In 1820 London, concerned that Macquarie was allowing far too much free reign to “unlawful and seditious elements”, appointed a Commissioner to report on activities in the Antipodes, this in spite of Macquarie’s strong support from within the Colony. Bigge was to arrive in Sydney in mid-1820 in the company of three Catholic priests who were to build the first Catholic Church in Sydney, St David’s, and a further sign of Macquarie’s laxity in the eyes of Bigge. His large three volume report that was released in early in 1822. On the 1st December 1822, Macquarie was replaced by Thomas Brisbane.
The twelve year term of Lachlan Macquarie as Governor of New South Wales was a far reaching one indeed. It was a time of rapid growth and expansion, not only in land holdings but also in population. Lachlan Macquarie was to die back in Scotland in relative obscurity, indeed portrayed by many as a man of strange ideas, but in Australasia many consider him a nation builder and the “father of Australasia”.
Macquarie saw the future of the colony as to provide an opportunity for former convicts to start a new life and begin again after a period of punishment for their crimes. He saw Australasia as a new land where those without opportunities to advance themselves in both Ireland and England could come and advance themselves and their station in life. It was a view that frequently brought him into conflict with his superiors in London, who did not espouse similar views.
At the end of Macquarie’s tenure in 1822, we see what was to later become Western Australia colonized and the first convicts arrive at such a station in the following year. This followed the settlement of the Morton Bay district two years earlier than planned, in 1820. In fact at the end of Macquarie’s tenure he had effective control over not only what is now New South Wales but also what is now Queensland, Tasmania, New Zealand, Norfolk Island, Macquarie Island, New Caledonia and Western Australia. Near sixty thousand people, both convict and free settler, lay scattered across these territories.
Macquarie was to create the first real police force in 1810. He was to break the importation and use of rum as a currency, granting and taxing the privilege of importing liquor into the colonies. Despite objections by many in London, Macquarie had actively canvassed for more free settlers, a fine prospect for many of Wellington’s veterans that came back to England in 1814 with no jobs and little in the way of prospects. The ready availability of land grants to such former soldiers was to spark a wave of immigration. Without a war to prosecute, the number of convicts transported to Australia was to also leap dramatically. Some 21,000 are sent between 1817 and 1822 alone, severely testing the Colonial authority ability to be able to physically guard and deal with such numbers and also hampering Macquarie’s ability to comply with London’s wishes to cut expenses.
None the less, a proper Court was established in 1815, rendering redundant a need to contact London to determine sentences for more serious crimes. Macquarie established “counties”, forbidding settlement in some so as to appease Aboriginal people that their lands would be protected.
For all this, there were certain areas in failure of policy. One of these was in relations with natives. Macquarie had been inclined to as conciliatory as possible, favouring treaties and had established native schools and a forum where both parties could meet. Despite these seemingly sensible acts, many settlers ignored prohibitions in regards non settlement in reserved areas, provoking confrontations that became increasingly common. The constant stream of complaints from influential people who also had supporters in London eventually influenced Macquarie to abandon a number of these conciliatory policies and instead embark troops on a number of punitive expeditions against that only further raised tensions and led to more conflict. Likewise, the very large numbers of convicts transported and the consequent strain on infrastructure was to see a sharp increase in absconding, with increasing numbers of men turning to bush ranging.
Eventually, Macquarie’s detractors were to have their way. In 1820 London, concerned that Macquarie was allowing far too much free reign to “unlawful and seditious elements”, appointed a Commissioner to report on activities in the Antipodes, this in spite of Macquarie’s strong support from within the Colony. Bigge was to arrive in Sydney in mid-1820 in the company of three Catholic priests who were to build the first Catholic Church in Sydney, St David’s, and a further sign of Macquarie’s laxity in the eyes of Bigge. His large three volume report that was released in early in 1822. On the 1st December 1822, Macquarie was replaced by Thomas Brisbane.
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You don't say Bigge is the commissioner, but I assume he is?
I thought the British weren't big fans of Catholicism, and instead would prefer if it was an Anglican church?
Otherwise, I'm glad this is back! Always enjoy your work @johnboy
Yes, Bigge is the Commissioner. He was concerned, of course, that three catholic priests were being transported to Sydney, in his mind a further sign of Macquarie's "Liberal" values. Thanks. The main aim is to get this timeline to the 1850's, when the population passes a million and things start to happen.
I do wonder how Tasmania is going to fare in this timeline compared with our own - one would hope better than OTL, though given a more rapid Australian settlement I don't see this being the likely case. The Black War is one of the least-recognized tragedies of its time for how utterly comprehensive it was.
In a similar vein, here's to hoping that Australia's native biosphere is going to be as healthy as that of OTL. Please, oh please, can we get some thylacines?
In a similar vein, here's to hoping that Australia's native biosphere is going to be as healthy as that of OTL. Please, oh please, can we get some thylacines?
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Who doesn't like a marsupial tiger...… my father swore and declared he saw one in 1938 with his brother when they were out 'rabbiting'.
Ex-English, History teacher - it is Moreton Bay, not Morton. At least as far as I know, but can always accept correction. Loving the timeline.
Also enjoyed the touch about the 3 Catholic priests and the reaction. Given today's policies, I always find it amusing that the first free Catholic priest in the colony was an illegal immigrant.
Also enjoyed the touch about the 3 Catholic priests and the reaction. Given today's policies, I always find it amusing that the first free Catholic priest in the colony was an illegal immigrant.
They had done a deal with the Catholic church in Ireland. They paid for the catholic Maynooth seminary in County Kildare to train Priests.
Before this Catholic priests were trained in France and the British and Catholic church were afraid they would bring dangerous revolutionary ideas back to Ireland.
In return the Catholic church banned oath bound societies and discourage nationalism. All Irish rebel groups were oath bound societies.
When national school were setup in Ireland they were going to be secular. Protestant church refused to send their children to them and demand separate schools for their children. They did this because they did not want their children being a minority in schools full of Catholics. So the British divided the National school system in to Catholic National schools and Protestant national schools.
Before the National school system was set Catholic went to hedge row schools that were not run by the church.
A strange alliance was formed between the Catholic church in Ireland and the British state.
Maynooth: a Catholic Seminary in a Protestant state
https://www.historyireland.com/18th...th-a-catholic-seminary-in-a-protestant-state/
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Maynooth still has a load of old silverware with RCC (Royal Catholic College) engraved upon it.
Just like the post office in the republic still has these.
irish post office archicture & fittings, including those charming old Victorian, Edwardian, George V era
http://www.irishpostalhistory.com/
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Let's hope the Aborigines fare better than OTL, though, given their lenient treatment was part of the reasons why Macquarie had to leave, I might be pessimistic.
Are some Lonson leaders thinking about setting more liberal religious policies, to ensure a greater proportion of Anglican in contentious areas (Ireland, parts of England)?
Lastly, what influence is having the fact more veterans than OTL are away from Britain? I could see less political tensions.
Are some Lonson leaders thinking about setting more liberal religious policies, to ensure a greater proportion of Anglican in contentious areas (Ireland, parts of England)?
Lastly, what influence is having the fact more veterans than OTL are away from Britain? I could see less political tensions.
Hard to see how that will happen while the British view Australia as Terra nullius.
Like the conflict in Ireland the biggest problem was land theft and who owns the land.