Uncommon UCS Colors
- Thread starter Iori
- Start date
I haven't gone as far as Alex, but we did partially different work.
You can have a first glance at it in the wiki since I followed Thande's instructions.
You can have a first glance at it in the wiki since I followed Thande's instructions.
Susano
Banned
True. But if this project comes sucessfully through, then I will have to declare Boto and/or you God Among Men
Alright - what is the best choice given that I am editing in xcf (Gimp) format?
A couple of questions in case someone has an idea about them:
- Hamburg had territories in its Northeast. I assumed that all red sprinkles between Hamburg and Lübeck belong to Hamburg. Any evidence against?
- I'm confused by Cuxhaven. I was of the opinion that it was part of Hannover, but it is coloured red on the scanned map. Was it also part of Hamburg?
- As to other city states with non-contiguous territories - does Weil am Rhein have a dependendant territory East of itself (between Weil and Waiblingen)?
- Is it correct that the cities on Lake Constance have separate upland territories?
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Susano
Banned
Yes...
http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/schleswig.htm
Most belonged to Lübeck, actually. And the striped area east of Hamburg is a Hamburg-Lübeck condominate.
Always. Bremerhaven (or rather the region that would eventually be named Bremerhaven) was the contestious issue. But Cuxhaven had always been a Hamburg possession, and that only changed in 1937 with the Hamburg Law (passed under the Nazis, hence Carltons location text
).Uh, I assume you mean Weil der Stadt (hilarious name). The answer to that would be no according to this map from the same soruce as above
. Come to think of it, just look at it for purposes of your fourth question, too, heh. It appears that, no, those are indeed all own Free Imperial Cities. Or give their small size, I guess we can start talking about Free Imperial Towns or even Free Imperial Villages here
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That's a great source. Thank you very much, Susano!
I think I'll depend more on it, especially in case I'll do a 1730 map any time to come ...
Errrr, yes. It turns out that I'm not that familiar with vileness ...
It appears that, no, those are indeed all own Free Imperial Cities. Or give their small size, I guess we can start talking about Free Imperial Towns or even Free Imperial Villages here
To abuse the famous quote of Voltaire, "it's neither free, nor imperial, nor a city".
Btw, my goal is to make a map where the different episcopal territories can be distinguished at first glance. I am using three shades of Papal golden at the moment, and I am relatively confident that that will suffice.
However, that rules out the usage of plain yellow - for the Welfs, for instance.
Thande
Donor
Export as PNG. Anything else will lead to either corruption that destroys editability or will wash out the colours. (TIFF is also OK I think but the files are usually bigger)
Alex Richards
Donor
It is done. I have finished the map including differentiations for:
Reuss Principalities
Saxon Duchies
Scwarzburg Duchies
Hohenzollern Lines
Anhaltian Duchies.
Linked to DeviantArt here: http://imperatordeelysium.deviantart.com/art/Holy-Roman-Empire-1789-168493601
If someone could put it on the Wiki for me, that would be most kind.
Reuss Principalities
Saxon Duchies
Scwarzburg Duchies
Hohenzollern Lines
Anhaltian Duchies.
Linked to DeviantArt here: http://imperatordeelysium.deviantart.com/art/Holy-Roman-Empire-1789-168493601
If someone could put it on the Wiki for me, that would be most kind.
Here is my take at it:
The full-sized version is on the wiki.
A couple of remarks:
Rationale of colouring:
Of course, I could insert many more of these auxiliary sign, but I would like to hear your opinion about it.
More ideas on the colours:
Finally, I didn't want to colour territories outside the HRE on this particular map for simplicity, but this is not important.
Any comments / suggestions / rants?
The full-sized version is on the wiki.
A couple of remarks:
Rationale of colouring:
- My goal was to assign colours to all Duchies, Landgravates, Margravates, episcopal and archiepiscopal allods, and imperial cities.
- Imperial counties and principalities (by that name) do not get colours. The reason: The map would either get very colourful, and / or the colours / territories would be hard to distinguish (probably both).
- Excepting the biggest countries unique colours (e.g. for Austria), I have inserted small connecting lines to mark areas belonging together. Purpose: Finding quickly all areas under one rule. Counties and principalities, which go uncoloured, can still get connecting lines (see Sponheim, Nassau).
- Imperial abbeys remain white for the same reason. However, the are marked by a small orange mirtre (see Corvey) - sometimes it's interesting to know which territories are under clerical rule (sometimes not).
Of course, I could insert many more of these auxiliary sign, but I would like to hear your opinion about it.
More ideas on the colours:
- A point really important to me: It should be possible to distinguish neighbouring episcopal possessions. This takes four shades of Papal Golden. I think this is relevant because not all bishops agree; they may land in different alliances ...
- Bavaria is green, as suggested. Actually, that would be some sort of green for all houses of Wittelsbach. As it is Palatine Bavaria here (and not the other way round) we may understand that light green as the Palatine colour and assign to Bavaria a somewhat darker green. Btw, Zweibrücken is a dark green.
- Pinks for the Wettins - as suggested.
- English-coloured Hannover to retain UCS compatibility. Before their period in England, I'd do something similar to what I did to Braunschweig: Wonderful shades of grey ...
- Areas under control of a ruler who is primarily a foreign monarch are only outlined in the UCS colour of that state (i.e. Denmark and Sweden).
- In spite of the episcopal colours, I used plain yellow (ffff00) nevertheless - for Baden.
Finally, I didn't want to colour territories outside the HRE on this particular map for simplicity, but this is not important.
Any comments / suggestions / rants?
No problem - I have all elements on different layers.
But I should do some minor corrections before
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Alex Richards
Donor
Only points I can see:
Using several greys for the Brunswicks and Hannover could get confusing with Prussia next door.
The Hohenzollern principalities are still independent, whereas you have coloured part as Prussian.
There are also a few additions I made to the map above, such as subdividing the Anhaltian Duchies, the Hohenzollern Principalities and the lands of the Schwarzburgs and Reuss.
Using several greys for the Brunswicks and Hannover could get confusing with Prussia next door.
The Hohenzollern principalities are still independent, whereas you have coloured part as Prussian.
There are also a few additions I made to the map above, such as subdividing the Anhaltian Duchies, the Hohenzollern Principalities and the lands of the Schwarzburgs and Reuss.
Has it ever occurred to you that the HRE looks as though a giant meat mincer had grubbed its way through the continent, and finally got stuck in Southwest Germany?
The particularly many little territories there are due to that machine struggling in vain to free itself ...
Anyway, I heeded Alex' and Thande's remarks, and noticed some painful mistakes myself as well. The resulting maps are on the wiki, one with connecting lines and one without:
http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/resources/hre_map_series
Actually, I don't insist anymore on not colouring non-HRE territories.
Instead, I subtly indicated the border of the HRE.
I had thought it would be easy to eliminated the lines because I had them on a separate layer.
But at the beginning, I did not take them out while colouring, and thus I have incurred some
serious tan marks. In the new maps, I have tried to eliminate as much of them as possible.
And finally: Phew. It's really a lot of work once you start noticing errors ...
Here is a little preview of the no-lines map:
Comments welcome!
Another question: Is there some agreement about a colour for Switzerland?
Alex: Of course your map should go to the wiki as well.
We should both then list the changes done to the based map Thande has extracted from his source.
The particularly many little territories there are due to that machine struggling in vain to free itself ...
Anyway, I heeded Alex' and Thande's remarks, and noticed some painful mistakes myself as well. The resulting maps are on the wiki, one with connecting lines and one without:
http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/resources/hre_map_series
Actually, I don't insist anymore on not colouring non-HRE territories.
Instead, I subtly indicated the border of the HRE.
I had thought it would be easy to eliminated the lines because I had them on a separate layer.
But at the beginning, I did not take them out while colouring, and thus I have incurred some
serious tan marks. In the new maps, I have tried to eliminate as much of them as possible.
And finally: Phew. It's really a lot of work once you start noticing errors ...
Here is a little preview of the no-lines map:
Comments welcome!
Another question: Is there some agreement about a colour for Switzerland?
Alex: Of course your map should go to the wiki as well.
We should both then list the changes done to the based map Thande has extracted from his source.
Wow!
How about coloring the Nassau states some shade of orange? To avoid confusion you could then color the Hesses in blues - there's a definite lack of blues within Germany.
How about coloring the Nassau states some shade of orange? To avoid confusion you could then color the Hesses in blues - there's a definite lack of blues within Germany.
You're right. I hadn't couloured principalities below duchy rank on purpose, but Nassau, being connected with the Netherlands, has to be an exception.
Only remaining question: Colour the border or the whole territory?
I'd say: the latter. But the line between foreign monarchs with possessions in Germany (Denmark, Sweden) and German princes moonlighting as foreign rulers (Hannover, Saxony) is hard to draw.
You are both right. So what about blue Welfish lands (like Brunsvik or Hannover before England)?
Maybe blue Welfs and teal Hesses, to make room for tawny-colored Nassaus?
My inclination would be to color the whole territory, especially since the Nassau lines first diverged in the 13th century and remained separate thereafter.
That would logically mean that modern-day Luxembourg would still be colored with the Nassau-Weilburg shade. Interesting.
My inclination would be to color the whole territory, especially since the Nassau lines first diverged in the 13th century and remained separate thereafter.
That would logically mean that modern-day Luxembourg would still be colored with the Nassau-Weilburg shade. Interesting.
Personally, I'm against this, as it doesn't score right on either of my two deciding questions for a country getting a colour:
1) Does it have overseas territory? - nope, Ethiopia has never had colonies or territory outside of Ethiopia.
2) Does it have puppet states, as determined by the UCS standard? - not AFAIK on any UCS map I've seen.
With the added question:
2.5) Is it difficult to work out which country it is unless you label it in the colour? - no, Ethiopia has been in the same place for the last few thousand years, and it is usually "that big country where Ethiopia normally is".
Just my two santim.