Unbeatable Alliance

Inspired by this thread:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=161167

What alliance is truly unbeatable?

Though this is in After 1900, I don't mind alliances prior to it.

The alliances can be ASB for example:

1979 - USSR + USA

Unbeatable?

Unfortunately nukes kind of spoil it.

Unbeatable would be that they can be at war with the entire world and not lose. (We can perhaps change that definition if it's too ASB)
 
France/Great Britain/Spain 1500s to 1707
France/UK/Spain 1707 to End of 18th Century
France/UK/Russia during the Napoleonic Era.
UK/Russia/Austria after the concert of Europe.
Germany/UK/Russia after the Unification of Germany.
UK/USA/Germany or Russia after 1900
USA/UK/France or Soviet Union after WW1 until 1940
USA/UK/Germany or Soviet Union 1940 to 1945
USA/Soviet Union 1945 to 1992
USA/Russia or China 1992-Present.
 
USA/UK/France or Soviet Union 1940 to 1945

I kind of doubt this one.

Could the USA/UK/France be beaten by USSR/Germany/some other countries too, in say 1939.

It'd basically be UK/USA vs USSR/Germany. (Instant knockout for France if same tactics)

France/Great Britain/Spain 1500s to 1707

Unfortunately no Great Britain for a while there. Just England/Wales (Lesser Britain).

I like your list a lot. An alliance without the UK can't be unbeatable up until 1945. :p

USA/Russia or China 1992-Present.

Russia + Europe vs USA/China?

Alternatively

China + Europe vs USA/Russia
 
The "Unbeatable" Alliance does not exist, since there are multiple factors, that can disrupt any appearant "superiority" in any allaince, no matter how many participants play in and opposed to whom it is allied against. It is simply too simple to think of something unbeatable, as the reality is more complex than it seems.

The primary problem in an alliance is that there are always more than one player to take notice of, each with its own interests and charactaristics. Play these out against eachother and the alliance is doomed. Any opponent to such an alliance can try to take advantage of this given knowledge.
 
Germany in 1939 dedicated 80% of their armed forces to defeat Poland. I have my doubts as to their solidity. It also bears mentioning that in 1939, the Soviet Union's armed forces were totally screwed by Stalin's large purges.

It is a fine point anyhow, I could change it to 1938 if necessary.
 

Markus

Banned
For WW1 it´s Germany and Russia vs. the rest.

Without a second front Germany could throw it´s entire army against France. But who could help France? The UK has not much of an Army, her Navy would be useless as Germany can import any amount of food and most other resources from Russia. Italy and A-H joining the Entente would be ASB given the tensions between the two and each on it´s own is too weak to make a difference.

I excluded the USA as the war would be over long before the USA would get involved.
 
Without a second front Germany could throw it´s entire army against France. But who could help France? The UK has not much of an Army, her Navy would be useless as Germany can import any amount of food and most other resources from Russia. Italy and A-H joining the Entente would be ASB given the tensions between the two and each on it´s own is too weak to make a difference.

A German-Russian alliance is ASB because Germany would not be happy being second best which would be required.

The tensions between AH/Italy/Entente aren't hard to butterfly away if you've just butterflied a Germany and Russia alliance into existence.

I excluded the USA as the war would be over long before the USA would get involved.

Good luck invading the UK.
 
The OTL Atlantic Alliance was quite unbeatable once the U.S. had time to build up. It's possible for it to fail to win, but the 2 greatest naval powers of the world combined when both are protected by the sea, with over half the total global industry and enough resources outside of Eurasia to sustain it, it's quite impossible for it to actually lose.
 

Markus

Banned
A German-Russian alliance is ASB because Germany would not be happy being second best which would be required.

The tensions between AH/Italy/Entente aren't hard to butterfly away if you've just butterflied a Germany and Russia alliance into existence.

Good luck invading the UK.


Why would it be difficult? Russia is a huuuge market for industrial products made by Germany, while Germany is a huge market for agricultural products from Russia. IOTL the existing sort-of alliance was not renewed because the east german nobility owning large estates did not like the competition from Russia. Eventually Russia would become the more powerful partner but that is a)sometime in the future and b)doesn´t matter much as both nations had no territorrial disputes.

Ok, A-H can give Italy what it wants. This keeps Italy out of the war but does not make A-H any stronger.

Why would anyone want to invade the UK for Pete´s sake? Even if they decide to keep buggering on after France asks for terms, it does not matter. Germany can´t be blockaded as long as Russia does not join this blockade one way or another. So the UK would be at war with Gemany but without any effecte way of making war. My guess, they´ll call it a day too.
 
Why would it be difficult? Russia is a huuuge market for industrial products made by Germany, while Germany is a huge market for agricultural products from Russia. IOTL the existing sort-of alliance was not renewed because the east german nobility owning large estates did not like the competition from Russia. Eventually Russia would become the more powerful partner but that is a)sometime in the future and b)doesn´t matter much as both nations had no territorrial disputes.

Ok, A-H can give Italy what it wants. This keeps Italy out of the war but does not make A-H any stronger.

Why would anyone want to invade the UK for Pete´s sake? Even if they decide to keep buggering on after France asks for terms, it does not matter. Germany can´t be blockaded as long as Russia does not join this blockade one way or another. So the UK would be at war with Gemany but without any effecte way of making war. My guess, they´ll call it a day too.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=161167
 

Markus

Banned

The counter alliance of Britain, France, Italy (?) (navies), Austria-Hungary, Japan, Ottoman Empire is extremely unlikely.

Italy and A-H are much more likely to go to war with each other than make an alliance, Japan has no interest at all in Europe and thus did no more than send a DD squadron to the Med in 1917, the Ottomans are even weaker than A-H and the naval power is useless. Germany can not be starved of food and other resources with Russia on its side.

edit: A bit of blunt language removed.
 
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The counter alliance of Britain, France, Italy (?) (navies), Austria-Hungary, Japan, Ottoman Empire is extremely unlikely.

Italy and A-H are much more likely to go to war with each other than make an alliance, Japan has no interest at all in Europe and thus did no more than send a DD squadron to the Med in 1917, the Ottomans are even weaker than A-H and the naval power is useless. Germany can not be starved of food and other resources with Russia on its side.

edit: A bit of blunt language removed.

Italy probably wouldn't be in that alliance, but they won't be in any hury to go to war against it either, they are to isolated from their allies and would have to fight on both the AH and French borders and against the combined allied fleet in the med.

Japan and Ottoman would certainly join the alliance, Japan not only because the Anglo-Japanese alliance, but also because they wouldn't mind taking some more of Russia after the 1904 war.

The Ottoman Empire will be on the side that fights Russia, in OTL it was the CP, in this TL it would be the Entente, there is nothing ASB about it.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Italy probably wouldn't be in that alliance, but they won't be in any hury to go to war against it either, they are to isolated from their allies and would have to fight on both the AH and French borders and against the combined allied fleet in the med.

True, but as soon as they perceive that AH is weakening against the German-Russians, Italy would join the latter. Everything that Italy covets in Europe is in French and Austrian hands, they would not miss the chance. Italy can certainly sustain a defensive position on the french borders and on the coasts while they help admniister the coup de grace against a weakened AH. Afterwards, a war against France and in the Med would not be a big problem for Italy, with free access to German and Russian commodities. Not that France and the Ottomans would be able to last very long against a combined German-Russian-Italian assault.
 
True, but as soon as they perceive that AH is weakening against the German-Russians, Italy would join the latter. Everything that Italy covets in Europe is in French and Austrian hands, they would not miss the chance. Italy can certainly sustain a defensive position on the french borders and on the coasts while they help admniister the coup de grace against a weakened AH. Afterwards, a war against France and in the Med would not be a big problem for Italy, with free access to German and Russian commodities. Not that France and the Ottomans would be able to last very long against a combined German-Russian-Italian assault.

I almost fully agree with this.

The only objection I have is that Italy would likely be leaning to whatever alliance is set against both France and AH and would be prepared for war. In fact, this is so obvious that it is more likely that AH remains neutral against a German-Russian-Serb-Montenegrin-Romanian-(Italian) alliance.
 

Eurofed

Banned
I almost fully agree with this.

The only objection I have is that Italy would likely be leaning to whatever alliance is set against both France and AH and would be prepared for war. In fact, this is so obvious that it is more likely that AH remains neutral against a German-Russian-Serb-Montenegrin-Romanian-(Italian) alliance.

Speaking in a general sense, yes. But the great powers' calculations on the eve of WWI, most definitely including A-H, were so riddled with diplomatic and strategic miscalculations, that I can surely see several TLs where A-H finds itself unwittingly trapped into fighting that kind of unwinnable war against the German-Russian-Italian-etc. Alliance alongside the Anglo-French-Ottoman Entente.
 
What about a German-British-Russian Alliance? A bit unlikely with Britain having to tolerate German dominance on the continent and Russian agression in Central Asia, but if it could be done, they could beat any opponent. Even with a French-Ottoman-Austrian-American Entente against them, and if minor nations which were against any of these nations would be blind for the risks of declaring war (China, Denmark, Sweden) they would probably still triumph. Italy would never join the Entente in such a scenario and would be eager to join the Alliance.

What do you guys think? Is this an unbeatable alliance?

EDIT: Just saw that it was already mentioned. Well, just for curiosity's sakes, how would this war go, and what would the outcome be?
 
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