Una diferente ‘Plus Ultra’ - the Avís-Trastámara Kings of All Spain and the Indies (Updated 5/6)

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Torbald, Mar 1, 2017.

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  1. Xenophonte Quod natura non dat, Salmantica non præstat.

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    Great chapter...the wait definitively was worth!

    I think that the Philippines would be more important Crossway and not only commercial, but cultural and religious first because would be very tinned linked to the rest of the Portuguese islands and mainly with the Portuguese India besides that these unexpected Japanese Ronin/pirates that settled in there I think that would will play a bigger role not only in the Philippines but also not only as important links with the Japanese islands but eventually for the Spanish empire.

    I guess that perhaps if wouldn't be butterflied the Japanese unification/centralization would lead as OTL to expansion attempts.
    Though if the Cristianizacion it's successful and become at least in one of Empire main religions alongside with the Buddhism the besides to be more integrated and relations both commercial, political and mainly culturally with the Spanish/Portuguese empire that would mean to individual level for the European empire source to recruit soldiers/settlers as in the Philippines 'model' or even as Monks/Missioners.
    At 'estate' level this would imply that besides that their Christianity would play a big role in their foreign relations both with Europa as with their neighbors and guess that would be key to the possibility to make alliances.
    Also would be possible that to some Japanese Daimyo would be proposed or even asked (perhaps by some traders) to participate in some joint Japanese/Spanish/Portuguese 'expedition'.
     
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  2. SavoyTruffle Illennial

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    Things getting interesting in Asia huh.

    I have to say the Portuguese will be introducing more than just tempura and arquebuses to Japan TTL... :p
     
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  3. Germania09 Well-Known Member

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    Woot glad to see you back and with a wonderful update. It’ll be interesting to see how Catholicism develop ITTL compared to oTL. Moreover the possibility of the Emperor converting opens up an interesting amount of possibility's. Definitely continue :p
     
  4. chrnno Well-Known Member

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    Chances are you will be seeing Japanese everywhere ITTL because that happened IOTL despite Japan being closed off so there gotta tons more of them.
     
  5. SavoyTruffle Illennial

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    If it means donburi stalls and oden carts in the major cities of Europe, so be it!
     
  6. The Merovingian To whom the Capets aspire.

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    I dont know what the history of ramen is in europe but we nees some portuguese to bring back some "Japon Spagetti" back as well. I love cultural exchanges x'D
     
  7. SavoyTruffle Illennial

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    Ramen was a 19th century adaptation of Chinese wheat noodles. You might want to look into soba (buckwheat noodles) or udon (thick wheat noodles), which were extant in the 16th century.
     
  8. The Merovingian To whom the Capets aspire.

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    I feel my lighthearted comment flew over your head, but thanks for the history lesson. On a side note, how is your Savoy Spain tl going?
     
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  9. Torbald þegn

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    You're right about China, somehow the Portuguese have gotten off even worse than IOTL concerning the situation with the Ming.

    You're also right on the money about everything else. What a more powerful Spanish empire/Iberian Union (and also friendlier Dutch and English) means for Asia is that, unlike IOTL, the Spanish/Portuguese will be allowed much greater freedom in choosing which territories and allies they get to hold on to when the other European nations inevitably arrive/certain Asian nations catch up technologically and Spain enters a period of relative decline. Hyperinflation will also inevitably hit Spain, albeit much less disastrously than IOTL.

    Your comment reminds me of Diego de Artieda's plan (started in 1573, when the Spanish had just barely finished the conquest of Luzon) to invade and conquer China. Artieda thought this could be accomplished with several thousand men from Spain and several thousand Japanese mercenaries, and - mind-bogglingly - his plan had the full support of just about every Spanish authority (both clerical and secular) in the Philippines. Luckily, such a horrifically shortsighted venture was rejected almost immediately back in Madrid, although this had more to do with Spain having its hands full already in Europe and the Mediterranean. I wonder if this plan would have been given approval in TTL's circumstances, and if the shogun and Spanish authorities could cooperate on it? Seems fairly likely that - especially with the wokou and Portuguese fleets largely working together - there will be a significant number of raids on or even full-scale annexation attempts of Chinese ports/islands. Without spoiling too much, expect to see something of the like occur around the Pearl River Delta/Hainan/Taiwan/Leizhou Peninsula/coastal Fujian/coastal Guangxi.

    I also learned recently that the OTL Spanish and Portuguese did hire Japanese mercenaries quite regularly and in fairly large numbers, so I imagine that trend will only be amplified ITTL ;)

    ¡Vive!

    Right now, the biggest obstacle to making a Christian Japan (not that I'm necessarily going to) is both making such a development believable and making the aftermath equally believable. I have only the slightest idea what a Japan with a large Christian minority would look like and what effect it would have on national unification, foreign policy, or domestic culture (Christian and European culture and ways of thought will still manage to seep into the non-Christian sections of society in some way), and I have even less of an idea how the same issues would be in a majority (or at least plurality) Catholic Japan - for instance, does the imperial office transform or is it abolished outright and replaced with a military dictatorship/elective monarchy?

    Discussion on this is VERY much welcome in this thread, if anyone is willing to offer information or just float ideas.

    Thanks! And thank you for reminding me! :) It needs footnotes too...

    At this rate, TTL's Manila will BE a Japantown in all but name.

    Those Castilians enjoy taking the back door, don't they? ;)

    Or a Lisboinha in Osaka ;)

    Thank you :)

    I'm glad you picked that up - I had known Nobunaga was more partial to the Jesuits than he was to the Buddhists, but I only just recently learned what intense hatred he had for Buddhism. While this may not save Catholics ITTL from being suspicious to the Japanese authorities on political grounds, it certainly offers them a much longer safeguard than IOTL from those who oppose them on spiritual grounds.

    Having read the reports of Portuguese traders and Jesuits in regards to the Japanese, I must say I'm surprised at how they considered the Japanese their equals, even to the point of kinship (classifying the Japanese as "whites"). Likewise, the Japanese were the only Asian population that the Jesuits fully accepted into its own ranks, and a native clergy in Japan was considered the Jesuit mission's top priorities. Needless to say, if they believe the Japanese are worthy of the priesthood as in OTL, there's no reason to suspect they won't consider them acceptable settlers in the colonies too ITTL.

    And thank you :)

    Thank you :)

    Manila is an incredibly important locale for East Asian trade, and I wonder if the Portuguese/Spanish will even bother with trying to secure something like Macau ITTL if they have Manila, at least for the time being...

    I also wonder if the Japanese influence might be as great or even greater on the Philippines than IOTL given Japan's greater proximity to the isles and their much higher population compared to Spain. So long as Spain is master of the seas (or at least the East Asian seas) then that's up to the Spanish, but there will probably still be many thousands that slip through the cracks and Japan-ify the Spanish East Asian colonies.

    Expect there to be plenty of family-oriented animes about Iesu Kirisuto ITTL's modern day :p

    Thanks!

    Regarding the conversion of the Japanese emperor, that might be an interesting bid to save his position in the country. With the shogunate consolidating and heading for unification, the emperor might renounce his semi-divinity (and replace it with the divine right of kingship, obviously) and convert to Christianity provided the shogun is anti-Christian and the Christian minority in Japan is large or powerful enough. The daimyos of the Sengoku period had a notorious level of disregard for the emperor, sometimes even treating him in a downright insulting manner and also directly disobeying/shooting down his edicts. It's a long shot, but an interesting one to be sure.

    That's another good point, especially considering how maritime the culture is. As a series of islands, Japan will also naturally be feeling the consequent population pressure, which means there will be a constant push outwards of varying size.

    I can just imagine TTL's modern day Spanish teenagers on the streets of Lisbon going out to eat at Tempura - a Japanese-style street-food chain owned and operated by the Quirixima family - at the insistence of their Miguelino friend, who grew up eating it in Celudão...

    And now I'm hungry :p
     
  10. Xenophonte Quod natura non dat, Salmantica non præstat.

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    Perhaps if the Christians and the Christianism continue to grow the perhaps some members of the royal family and/or near relatives would converts. Also, I think that wouldn't be strange if in ttl circumstances would start a Buddhist reaction (both political and religious) that would be led by the monks armies... situation that would be mixed/worsened by the interregional and rivalry/ feuds between Clans/Daimyos against the Christians but specifically against the Christian Daimyos that in this circumstance would be part of a wider rebellion against the Shogun.
    Also, in my opinion, would be interesting to see at least some of the effects that would have for the Christian and for the rest of the Japaneses the translation and adaptation of the Western (political) philosophy, (in this age) but mainly of the Latin Patristics' works both by those that would be priests as by some of the converts Japanese intellectuals perhaps even the study and translation/adaptation of at least a selection of the main Christian writers.
    Perhaps, if happen, this would be the start of the Japanese Christians thinkers and apologist that would be debating, first against the Japanese Buddhist and (would be possible that after) would be debating with (mainly but, guess, that not only) the Chinese. A debate that would be through in epistolary way and eventually in person.
     
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  11. Gabingston Kicked

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    I could see a significant Japanese community spring up in Acapulco (or Akaparuko in Japanese, I'd assume), the main Spanish trading port on the Pacific in North America. Same (but to a lesser extent due to the distance) in Callao (or Kaiao in Japanese) (just outside of Lima, or Rima) in South America.
     
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  12. SavoyTruffle Illennial

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    The theological implications of Japanese thought filtering into Christianity would be interesting as well.
     
  13. Iskandar Khayon Well-Known Member

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    I guess this means in present day ITTL we can expect Spanish dubbed anime to have more popularity! All jokes aside this is an incredible and interesting timeline. Keep up the good work!
     
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  14. mrcubfan415 Well-Known Member

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    Hey, that rhymes! :D
     
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  15. Gabingston Kicked

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    Hessian Confession
    "These are my confessions..."
    - Usher, 2004
     
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  16. Germania09 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t even think renouncing his semi divinity would be necessary for the divine right of kingship to work, he’s simply replacing one faith for another. Syncretically merging his divine lineage with the Catholic faith, by more or less saying that he and the Imperial dynasty have been chosen by God to lead Japan into the community of the faithful and so on and so forth. It definitely would be an interesting series of events regardless ha.

    It’d be interesting to see if an alliance can be made that would benefit both parties which would allow Japan to expand outside its territory (more controlled area for its population to settle) Regardless ITTL with Japan more open Japanese will much more spoken within SE Asia and beyond.
     
  17. The Merovingian To whom the Capets aspire.

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    You invoke the warrior poets of old

    "if The day doth not require the AK....it is good." :pensive:
    -Ice-Cube, 1992
     
  18. Gintoki Sakata Tsinoy AltHist Enthusiast

    Didn't realize about the TL being updated until now, but it's a great read on how an alternate Portugal is able to build up and develop its influence and Catholicism in East Asia at the time. I hope Catholicism reaches into the Chugoku and Shikoku regions, the former because the Ouchi clan was mentioned and ruled by an Otomo branch. Any possibility of the Ryukyus being a Portuguese colony?
     
  19. The Merovingian To whom the Capets aspire.

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    Guys! Torbald just liked my old post. I think an Updates coming early! #dreamscometrue #vivaespana
     
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