Una diferente ‘Plus Ultra’ - the Avís-Trastámara Kings of All Spain and the Indies (Updated 5/6)

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Torbald, Mar 1, 2017.

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  1. ramones1986 Grumpy and Lazy

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    @Torbald, was Castillan/Spanish experienced phonetical changes just like in OTL, or such changes was quite different?
     
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  2. Gian Wizard of Watkins Mill Gone Fishin'

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    'Murica (do you have to ask?)
    I'd still love to see some French Protestant colonies in the New World (perhaps in our world's Jamestown or Plymouth)
     
  3. Torbald þegn

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    An Eastern Europe and East Asia update are generally what I had in mind for what comes next as well, given that they're the two regions I've most roundly neglected so far and also given how many years have elapsed. I got some material written for the HRE, France, and France's colonies/maritime presence post-20 Years War, but nothing update worthy yet.

    So Poland/Lithuania/Russia/maybe Sweden/maybe Scandinavia update next, then China/Japan/Indochina/maybe Portuguese Asia update after that. Sound good?

    Antonio de Nebrija has still published his OTL Grammar of the Castilian Language in 1492, so Castilian is still the most consistent and regulated of the Iberian Romance languages at this point, and if a "Spanish" language intended to meld the the languages of Spain together ever emerges, expect it to draw most heavily from Castilian.

    Regarding specific phonetics, I imagine you're talking about the Castilian /θ/, which started to develop during the 16th century. I know it isn't present in Catalan or Portuguese, but I haven't yet decided how much of an influence those languages are going to have on Castilian considering their demographics within Spain and the prevalence of literature and rules pertaining to them. Expect there to be fairly consistent usage of the /θ/ in Northern Castile, and less consistent usage of it in Southern Castile, the Americas, Spanish North Africa, and Galicia.
     
  4. ramones1986 Grumpy and Lazy

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    Alongside the development of northern Castillan distinción, I thought of some ATL phonetical changes that would possibly occur in your scenario, like the merger of palatal lateral [ʎ] (LL) with voiced paleoalveolar fricative [ʒ] (G before E and I), the maintenance of voiceless palato-alveolar fricative [ʃ] (J), the extension of voiceless glottalized fricative [h] to include words that etymologically started with H, and even the reintroduction of distinction between B and V.

    Nonetheless, it's just my suggestion and it's up to you if you could incorporate it in your TL.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
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  5. Xenophonte Quod natura non dat, Salmantica non præstat.

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    Well, besides the above mentioned options/suggestions would be interesting to know more some about TTL Spanish America OTL settlement borders both north as south... e. g. the Pampas region, the Chaco and the Bio-Bio border...
    Also, how are developing the Philippines and/or Southeast Asia (Maritime).
     
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  6. Torbald þegn

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    I've thought about how Castilian, Portuguese, and Catalan might meld in the most efficient, yet realistic way almost since I began writing this TL, so your suggestions - especially the merging of the [ʎ] and [ʒ] (given how the pronunciation of the letter g is so different in Portuguese and Castilian) - are really interesting to me. I don't know where the [ʃ] is going to end up (either as the sound for x or j) considering the Castilians are still using the letter x for it at this point in time (Did they ever use the jota for it? Or was the jota exclusively [h]?), so it could go both ways right now (although I would be really loath to abandon the voiceless velar fricative, which is dear to me). I've also wondered if the Castilians might reintroduce the letter f to words that etymologically started with it but lost it (e.g. hierro, hidalgo, etc.) to better align with Portuguese and as an homage to the Latin origins (also about differences like mujer/mulher - mulher is obviously closer to the Latin as well).

    There was actually a whole section I had planned for the last update detailing the conquest of Chile and whatnot, but I simply didn't have time to really invest in it. But just you wait, it's still there and almost ready to be published :)
     
  7. Torbald þegn

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    Also, slight change of plans: I realized while writing the Poland-Lithuania/Russia update that I would have to first elaborate on what's going on in the HRE post-Schwarzkrieg and certain things that have been developing amongst the Protestant reformers for such an update to make sense (at least for Poland and Lithuania, since most of the butterflies really start hitting them in the second half of the 16th century ITTL), so expect the next update to be an HRE/Reformation one.
     
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  8. A_simple_pilgrim your local crusader

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    In relation to the language situation, what are the demographics like in Iberia? Are the castillians dominant?

    Additionally while you're talking about the aftermath of the shwarzkreig, could you elaborate on what effect and a shorter and less brutal period of religious war had on the demographics of the HRE?
     
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  9. Threadmarks: XXXV. Ordinatio Imperii

    Torbald þegn

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    ~ Ordinatio Imperii ~

    The 12 years of war that consumed the Holy Roman Empire from 1542 to 1554 would pass into the contemporary annals as a series of disjointed, religiously-fueled uprisings, a momentary stumble on the House of Hapsburg’s inevitable path to domination. But to popular memory this conflict would be recalled as the “Schwarzkrieg” - the “Black War” that forced unprecedented violence between the German people and would forever befoul relations between the Catholics and Protestants amongst them. The seething ferocity of this conflict grew to involve all of the powers of Western Europe, baring their own particular socio-religious divides in the process and leaving an estimated 2 million dead from disease, disorder, and destruction of cataclysmic proportions.

    ReformationRevolts-Phase2.png
    Popular uprisings in Central Europe after the Bauernkrieg
    (1: Beeldenstorm/Bildersturm, 2: Swabian Revolt, 3: Horali Revolt)

    Yet despite the depredations and consequent bad blood brought about by the Schwarzkrieg, it served a remediative purpose for Reformation-era Germany. Wave after wave of destruction brought on by warfare, looting, and iconoclasm had effectively erased much of Germany’s tangible medieval heritage, but this destruction had similarly wiped clean from both German society and the German consciousness many of the problems that had caused it in the first place. After the final session of the ecumenical council at Basel closed in 1546, the Germans gradually found the Church they had so heartily rebelled against able to respond to their needs and concerns. Reform Catholicism was already slowly filtering in naturally from Northern Italy via the Oratorians and Gregorians beginning in the 1540s, but its true induction into German society began with a homegrown movement led by two clerics by the name of Bruno Gerhardt and Pieter Kanis.

    Gerhardt.gif
    Bruno Gerhardt

    Gerhardt, a native of Dormagen, was finishing his Augustinian novitiate and canon law studies in the city of Cologne when Duke William of Jülich-Cleves-Berg strode in at the head of an army of ravenous mercenaries, followed closely by thousands of angry Protestant zealots. Gerhardt spent two terrifying weeks in hiding, narrowly evading capture as he witnessed the subjection of Cologne to a deluge of bloodshed, looting, and all manner of sacrilege. After finding an opportunity to slip out of the city unnoticed, Gerhardt hid his tonsure and fled 80 kilometers before being sheltered by a Catholic family near the city of Venlo. While recuperating in their barn, Gerhardt states that he came to the conclusion that the blame for the Protestant epidemic could be placed squarely on negligent clergy and the consequent ignorance of the masses towards their own faith. After two short weeks in hiding, Gerhardt would again have to flee as the iconoclastic Beeldenstorm and Dutch Revolt came into full swing, this time stopping in Eindhoven where by happenstance he found Pieter Kanis, a colleague from Cologne.

    Kanis, a native of Nijmegen, was of like mind with Gerhardt, and proposed that they gain permission from their order to obtain a printing press for the sake of pamphleteering. With the famed medieval Colognian doctor Albertus Magnus as their inspiration, Gerhardt and Kanis laid the foundations for a religious community later known colloquially as the “Albertines.” This connection to Albert of Cologne was significant enough that the Albertines were instrumental in seeing him canonized in 1620, after which they formally changed the name of their order from the "Society of Clerics Regular of the Divine Word" to the “Society of St. Albert the Great.” Tapping into the long-established and vibrant popular devotion found in the Low Countries and Lower Rhineland and drawing inspiration from the writings of the 19th Ecumenical Council and its Basilian Catechism (as well as from Jehan Cauvin, the French bishop of Noyon), the mission of the Albertines was simple: to revive Church-led education. Gerhardt and Kanis acknowledged the value and advancements found in the Renaissance humanist models of Europe’s foremost educational institutions and intellectual leadership, and they wished to collaborate with such modern knowledge and relay it to the uninformed - albeit with an underlying focus on Christ rather than Man. Ideally, Albertine schools would be charitable institutions and thus free of charge, with priority given to orphans and other clergy.

    PeterCanisius.jpg
    Pieter Kanis

    These first years were ones of toil and tribulation as the Albertines struggled to ride out the throes of the Beeldenstorm and Schwarzkrieg. Communication with Rome was sparse and slow, but in 1562 Kanis and Gerhardt finally received authorization of their new order from Rome as well as the go-ahead to start a community at Arnhem, followed by a sister community at Duisburg in 1563. Greater support subsequently came from imperial princes wishing to re-Catholicize their domains, particularly the prince-bishops of Liège, Cologne, and Wurzburg. What truly improved the fortunes of this upstart order was the interest of Albrecht VI, duke of Bavaria, who personally invited the Albertines into his duchy, giving them funds to open a grammar school in Ingolstadt and requesting their best tutors for his son. The Albertines of Ingolstadt quickly gained a reputation for their learnedness, eloquence, and devotion, and soon found themselves sponsored directly by the House of Hapsburg - first by Ferdinand II, Duke of Further Austria, who paid for an Albertine college in Innsbruck, then by the Emperor himself, Philipp II, who kept his court filled with Albertine brothers and made enormous donations to their chapters and schools in Prague, Vienna, Mechelen, Ghent, Eger, Pressburg, and Brno. Having started with basic catechesis, arithmetic, and syntax, the Albertines quickly began percolating into the fields of law, medicine, botany, astronomy, anthropology, and philosophy.

    AlbertineSchool.jpg
    Die Albertinische Universität von Ingolstadt

    The inception and rise of the Albertines in Central Europe was merely one facet of the far-reaching effects of the Council of Basel. All across the Empire, there were fundamental changes in Catholic society: corrupt bishops and licentious priests were defrocked; the more inaccessible, quaint frescoes often found in the great cathedrals of the Middle Ages were overshadowed by awe-inspiring baroque paintings and sculptures; and the much needed Oratorians, Gregorians, and Albertines - so full of spiritual vigor and moral seriousness - began to file into the churches, monasteries, and universities. With a great number of German Protestantism’s secular and religious leadership exiled, killed, or otherwise disengaged from society, many Germans (especially those less theologically attuned) that formerly aligned with the Protestant cause simply reverted to the Catholicism of their forefathers - a Catholicism which now possessed a renewed energy and had overcome the greater share of its old abuses.

    - Der Große Reichstag -

    "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

    - Isaiah 1:18

    Muhlhausen.jpg
    Der Reichstag in Mühlhausen

    Assailed on all sides, the old imperial, Catholic order represented by the Hapsburgs had somehow prevailed against the humanist, centralizing governments of France and the League of Fulda, and now found itself free to dictate the terms of postwar Europe. With no small amount of blind luck, the Emperor Charles “the Iron” von Hapsburg had exploited his enemies’ weaknesses, chosen his allies wisely, held firm under immense pressure, and ended up stumbling out of the Schwarzkrieg in 1554 with most of his opponents in the palm of his hand. Or so it had seemed.

    Just a few short days into the first Imperial Diet since 1541 in Würzburg - the latter regarded as something of a Robber Synod by the League of Fulda - it had become clear to Charles V that the absolute victory that unfolded for the House of Hapsburg at the battle of Darmstadt turned out to be not quite as absolute as it might have seemed. The arrangements prior to the Reichstag of 1556 betray an undeniable sense of confident clemency from Charles V and the Hapsburg camp. Cardinal Antoine de Granvelle, Charles V’s longtime advisor and the most preeminent statesman of his court, was more or less the mastermind behind the truce of Darmstadt and the Imperial Proposition for Mühlhausen, and he cautioned the emperor against acting on his anger (for the sake of his remembrance by posterity) and oriented the drafting of conditions towards a more conciliatory verdict. Likewise, while the city of Augsburg had been the prevailing locale for Imperial Diets under the Hapsburgs (primarily due to it being the residence of the Fugger family, the Hapsburgs’ chief lenders), the Imperial city of Mühlhausen - formerly entrusted to the governance of the houses of Hesse and Wettin - was chosen for its presence in the suitably neutral ground of the Thuringian Basin. Nonetheless such concessions would be mostly useless, as Charles V's many subjects let him know that he would be only minimally in charge. The sudden vulnerability Charles V must have felt at the 1556 Reichstag after riding high on his great victory two years earlier was probably at its most acute while he winced with every step making his processional entry down the aisle of the Marienkirche, barely able to walk from an advanced case of gout as the whole imperial elite bore witness to his undignified infirmity.

    Emperor Maximilian I’s Diet of Worms in 1495 and Diet of Augsburg in 1500 were the shining examples for Charles V’s intended goals at Mühlhausen; it had long been Charles V's aim to continue Maximilian I's program of reorganizing the Imperial government, finances, and judiciary. However, even for an emperor as diligent, resourceful, and respected as Maximilian I, the prospect of reforming and centralizing the Holy Roman Empire was daunting, to say the least. The Byzantine mosaic into which the Empire had devolved by the late 15th century was a staggering, intricate mess of individual liberties, jurisdictions, tolls, and hierarchies - nearly all of which were as tenaciously guarded as any vast, aristocratic latifundia to be found in France or Spain. What had made matters even worse for the project of Imperial reform was, of course, the emergence of Protestantism. Whereas the power brokers of the Empire in Maximilian’s day could at least find common confessional ground, the formation of the League of Fulda and the eruption of the Schwarzkrieg demonstrated that Charles V’s most powerful subjects now considered defying the authority of the Emperor to be a religious obligation. The most prominent of the defenders of German Protestantism and opponents to Hapsburg dominance had been dealt an irreversible defeat at the hands of their emperor on the field of battle, but there remained a multitude of Imperial princes and oligarchs who likewise wished to defy Charles V and protect their Protestant creeds without taking up arms, choosing Mühlhausen as the place to do so.

    The nature of the Protestant rebellion in the Empire was - while continued - substantially altered by the events of the 20 Years War. For the sake of peace Charles V could not deny the Protestant representatives an opportunity to make a collective statement as he had at Würzburg in 1541, and the Meyeran princes were allowed to have their statement of intent read after the reading of the Imperial Proposition. This statement, which was read aloud by George Frederick, the margrave of Brandenburg-Ansbach, was essentially a summarized and reworked draft of the “Hessian Confession” presented by Meyer himself at Nidda in 1541 in anticipation of its announcement before the assembled Reichstag. The wording of the Mühlhausen statement, however, was noticeably more subdued than that chosen by Meyer himself and the proto-Fuldischer Bund, reducing the affirmation of Meyer’s creed to subjectivity (e.g. from “the Lord’s Supper must be received in both kinds” to “we believe the Lord’s Supper to be most appropriately received in both kinds”). This reflected not only a greater reluctance to offend the victors of the Schwarzkrieg but also a certain guardedness, as if the Protestant community was gradually beginning to consider itself a nation apart from - or even in captivity to - the ascendant Catholic portion of the Empire.

    Muhlhausen2.jpg
    Reading of the statement regarding the Confessio Reformatorum Germanica

    Many had been hopeful that the defeat of the League of Fulda would spell the end of Protestantism in the Empire entirely - Charles V must have at least hoped to see Mühlhausen as the beginning of Protestantism's gradual eradication - but by 1556 such an outcome was simply impossible, barring genocide. Putting the consequences of Catholic victory into action opened an unforeseen can of worms. In the regions still held by the Protestants by 1556, countless monasteries had been dissolved, Church properties had been confiscated and nationalized, and numerous prince-bishoprics remained occupied, for which Charles V had received a deluge of complaints and requests for intervention by the dispossessed churchmen. The demand for restitution of yet un-returned former Church lands and property had been at the fore of Charles V's agenda since Darmstadt, and he had decreed at Giessen the following Spring that the lands of the Imperial prince-bishoprics had to be returned, but, beyond that, only the ecclesial properties seized by those who had risen up in rebellion against Charles V were to be restituted to their former owners or be monetarily compensated for. This presented a significant obstacle. These restitutions and fines were easy enough to secure from the domains of the imperial princes subdued in the Schwarzkrieg, but there were a great number of princes who had seized Church property without joining in the revolt against their Emperor, and there remained two dukes - Wilhelm III of Jülich-Cleves-Berg and Ernst I of Brunswick-Lüneburg - who were members of the rebellious League of Fulda but were never captured, killed, or forced to surrender. Charles V's insistence in his demand for these parties to surrender what amounted to millions of ducats - without ever having proven to them that he possessed the capabilities to force them to do so - led to murmurings of renewing the rebellion.

    As desperately as Charles V might have wanted to restructure the Empire, revitalize its finances, and purge it of heresy, maintaining the peace remained the inviolable objective. Charles V underestimated the number of princes and representatives holding Protestant beliefs - making up majorities in both the Reichsfürstenrat (college of imperial princes) and Reichsstädtekollegium (college of imperial cities) - and eventually understood that unless he promised them indefinite toleration, none of his measures stood any hope of passing. Open practice of Protestantism was thus permitted in the domains of Protestant princes and within the walls of Protestant free cities, although the Imperial office was forbidden to non-Catholics and, in individual cases - while men could not be tried according to their conscience - any sensationalist anti-Catholic rabble rousing or defamation of the Papacy, the Mass, the sacraments, and the doctrine of purgatory were to remain criminal offenses (so long as there was someone around willing to report them). In order not to upset either side by pushing certain question, there were unfortunately no guidelines put in place to deal with many of the glaring religious loopholes, such as discerning the fate of an imperial prince that embraced Protestantism after the Diet. The restitution clause was therefore left in the Recess document (Reichsabschied), although no fines were as yet issued to Jülich-Cleves-Berg or Brunswick-Lüneburg.

    When it came to more secular matters, the promise of toleration was insufficient and Charles V remained at loggerheads with the Reichstag. First was the matter of the Imperial Chamber Court, or Reichskammergericht, a supreme court which had been established at the Diet of Worms in 1495 against the wishes of Maximilian I. As a means of preserving the supreme deliberative authority of the imperial office, Maximilian I had founded a rival supreme court known as the “Aulic Council”, which was composed entirely of the Emperor’s appointees and had concurrent and - in some cases - greater jurisdiction than the more representative Reichskammergericht. It was obviously in Charles V’s interest to disband the Reichskammergericht, and it was obviously in the imperial princes’ interest to try and safeguard what little participation they were still allowed in the judicial process of the Empire at large. Second was the matter of the "Gemeiner Pfennig" (“Common Penny”) - a combined poll tax, income tax, and property tax payable by all citizens of the Empire over the age of 15, and was measured against the wealth and status of the taxed individual. The idea of such a tax was intolerable to the Reichstag unless they had a say in what could be done with its revenues. They wanted a reformed imperial treasury, comprised of princes and representatives from each of the colleges and dispensed at their judgement.

    However, just as the Diet at Mühlhausen seemed to be settling into long-term gridlock, the circumstances necessary for a forced compromise emerged. While Charles V was busy suppressing revolt and repulsing French intervention, the Ottomans had swallowed up the Levant and Egypt without missing a step, and it was now almost common knowledge that Hungary was the Great Turk’s next target. Indeed, Charles V received word while in session at Mühlhausen in mid September that an army numbering in the tens of thousands - possibly hundreds of thousands - was being assembled at Edirne under Turkish banners.

    Charles V needed money and he needed it quickly. In order to get the Gemeiner Pfennig passed he conceded to the creation of an imperial treasury, the decisions of which he could not in any way veto so long as the revenue of the Gemeiner Pfennig was set aside exclusively to deal with the Turks or other immediate external threats. The Gemeiner Pfennig was still an exceptionally bitter pill for the attendants of the Reichstag to swallow, however, and a further condition was needed before it could be accepted. Charles V relented on the matter of the judiciary as well and agreed to establish a Reichskammergericht over each of the Imperial Circles (Reichskreise), which were consequently redrawn to better reflect the confessional divide, with Protestant populations consolidated as much as possible in order to broaden the jurisdiction of their respective chamber courts. These courts would function as the supreme judiciary within their respective circles, wherein their juridictions could not be infringed by the Emperor or his Aulic Council. The Aulic Council or the Emperor would therefore only be allowed to deliberate on matters emerging between the Imperial Circles or with the outside world - except in cases of capital punishment as outlined in Charles V's 1532 criminal code, the Constitutio Criminalis Carolina, in which the accused would retain the right to appeal to the Emperor.

    Reichskreise.png
    Die neuen Reichskreise

    With the close of the Diet of Mühlhausen in August of 1556, neither the Reichstag nor the Emperor were able to secure full legislative autonomy from one another, but an imperial government of sorts - in which judicial and financial decisions were made through a cooperation between the Emperor and his subjects - was achieved. Likewise, while the Protestant question remained unsolved, a satisfactory peace had been established and the warrior class of the split Christian confessions of the Holy Roman Empire - only moments before at one another’s throats - had now strangely enough clasped arms once again and turned towards the behemoth fast approaching from the southeast.

    Statue.png
    Statue of Charles V in Darmstadt
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
  10. A_simple_pilgrim your local crusader

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    Wonderful update!

    I am surprised by some of the developments in this one. The new catholic orders naturally bringing people back into the fold is really a huge development.

    But what I didnt expect was the amount of resistance Charles V is facing in his centralization efforts. I thought that after smashing the protestants militarily he could impose most of his terms, but I guess he was far sighted enough to compromise.

    And would the majority imperial princes actually be protestant? They just lost the war, so those staying on for opportunism would probably leave the movement. Or are just that many princes deeply devoted protestants by the 1560s?

    The most interesting thing going forward is going to see how Europe reacts to this version of the Turkish invasion. Maybe fighting side by side here will be what brings the empire together? And I cant help but see a resemblance of how Juan Pelayo had his baptism by fire during the religous wars, now TTL Phillip II will have his in a war against the Turks.

    Once again, wonderful timeline, and I cant wait to see where it goes
     
  11. Torbald þegn

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    The Castilians are indeed still numerically dominant, standing at about 7.5 - 8.5 million by OTL reckoning. I believe the Crown of Aragon (including its Italian possessions) has less than 2 million at this point IOTL. As for Portugal, its OTL population estimates have left me spectacularly confused, as I've seen numbers ranging from 1.2 million to 3 million.

    All these numbers are slightly higher across the board ITTL thanks to more focused governance and reform.

    Thank you very much :)

    I suppose I may have over-emphasized just how much resistance Charles V has encountered (I didn't want to go the opposite route and make things seem unrealistically easy). The fact that nothing resembling the Protestation of Speyer has occurred ITTL is important, and as a consequence Protestantism isn't as well-regarded in the HRE and the authority of the Emperor is more highly esteemed. Following this it should be added that what Charles V has accomplished at Muhlhausen is monumental - even if it wasn't earth-shattering. The successful reintroduction of Maximilian I's reforms - especially the passage of the Gemeiner Pfennig - is huge. As will be detailed in a future update, the House of Habsburg is deep in the hole financially after the 20 Years War, and the Gemeiner Pfennig might just be the spare nickel that saves them from complete fiscal ruination. I'm sure you can see how some of the developments at Muhlhausen are going to lead to conflicts in the future, though.

    It also bears mentioning that - while Charles V did indeed crush the Protestant coalition (or at least most of it) - he did so with the assistance of some pretty powerful Protestant princes (e.g. Duke Maurice of Saxony, Albrecht of Brandenburg-Kulmbach, etc.) who thought that the conversion of the HRE to Protestantism was inevitable and also that taking up arms against the Emperor was shortsighted and reflected badly on their shared faith. These individuals now constitute Charles' opponents in the Reichstag, where they are fighting to protect German Protestantism - which they now feel an urgent need to given how the Emperor is vocally doubling down on his Catholicism.

    This is very similar to what occurred IOTL. Maurice of Saxony was also one of Charles V's allies during the war with the Schmalkaldic War, and Charles V achieved what appeared to be total victory when he smashed the Protestant army at Muhlberg. However, when Charles V (feeling confident) began to roll out measures to reintegrate the Protestants back into the Church, Maurice renewed the rebellion himself in 1552 and forced Charles to flee all the way to Villach - a humiliating end and almost complete reversal to what had been a steady string of tremendous victories for the Habsburgs.

    Luckily for Charles V, he understands his German subjects better and is therefore a bit more levelheaded with them ITTL. The Schwarzkrieg was also much longer and far bloodier than the Schmalkaldic War of OTL, so both sides here are exhausted and therefore more willing to negotiate rather than start fighting again.

    Concerning the Turks - expect there to be a more united and competent anti-Turkish front than IOTL, especially from 1560-1590: the Protestants and Catholics of the HRE have reached a temporary understanding in order to confront the Ottoman invasion, the Spanish have eliminated most of the corsair presence in the Western Mediterranean way ahead of schedule, the French have a Sainte-Ligue monarch who has solemnly sworn to assist in the crusade, and the English are likely to assist more given they haven't gone Protestant or anti-Spanish.

    Still, for all the defects inherent in the Habsburg's transeuropean empire IOTL, it was pretty effective at keeping a huge amount of Europe's resources consistently coordinated against the Ottomans. Without that level of coordination, the great contest between the Ottomans and their opponents ITTL runs into an unexpected roadbump for the anti-Turkish side. Philipp II is... going to have his hands full, so you're certainly right about his "baptism by fire" :)
     
  12. Germania09 Well-Known Member

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    Oh man another update and it’s about Charles V! Though it’s true he didn’t get all of his demands through (never gets a break) Charles did succeed in one important aspect which was to keep the Prices of the HRE somewhat together and now have them geared towards fighting towards a common foe. Overall a decent compromise if ever there was one in such a situation.

    I for one will look forward to how it all fares over the course of TTL and definitely can’t wait for the next update :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  13. Tyler96 Well-Known Member

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    I've read through this in the past few weeks. Excellent TL. :).
     
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  14. Earl Marshal Well-Known Member

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    Very nice! It would seem that the Holy Roman Empire will be a bit more united going forward, but it doesn't look like it will be a completely Hapsburg dominated state either. It seems to be more of a give and take relationship between the Emperor and the Princes at least for now which is a very interesting development.
     
  15. isabella Well-Known Member

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    Mar 22, 2012
    Can I ask for some genealogical trees or a link to the relative post if they are already posted?
    A marked post with the collection of the various table would be really great for follow a complexed timeline like this
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
  16. Tyg Corporate Inquisitor

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    Is northern Italy still technically part of the Empire in legal terms, and left unaddressed in this reorganization of the HRE?
     
  17. Germania09 Well-Known Member

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    5A863A56-EA8F-4885-8A7A-1C7705D31C30.jpeg
     
  18. Bison Banned

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    Sarajevo; DE, BY, BA, AL, AT, FR
    This is a wonderful timeline, certainly one of my top 5 right now. Very interesting developments and well written. Fairly fast paced, too. My favorite ones so far are the lack of a Portugal (I have a strange beef with countries that have no ethnic or at least religious basis) and the fact that Pomerania inherited the Teutonic order. In the end, is Pomerania in a stronger position than Brandenburg, especially from an economic point of view? Stettin could do as a cool capital, it has a nice natural harbour and is in a better position than swampy stupid Berlin. What is going on with the Livonian order at this time? Was it split up between Denmark/Sweden and Poland? I'm not really aware of what's occuring in the Eastern Baltic at this point in time. Do you think Naples/Sicily can ever be integrated into the realm proper, or will it end up in Italy or as an independent nation-state?
     
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  19. Torbald þegn

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    Jan 27, 2010
    Location:
    Dallasensis
    It just wouldn't be Charles V if he wasn't opposed at every turn and stressed out of his gourd, would it?

    You're right about the compromise - even if lacking the ultimate goals of outlawing Protestantism or increasing the powers of the Emperor, the agreement at Muhlhausen is still leagues better than what the Habsburgs achieved IOTL.

    And thanks :)

    Thank you :) Glad to have you with us.

    The Habsburgs will retain control over the Empire, but you're right that they're not going to do it by merely dominating it as they tried to do IOTL. I've played around with a few scenarios that would make the Habsburgs viewed less as the universally-hated familial conglomerate that they were IOTL and more as simply the HRE's ruling family. Almost all of these scenarios involve harming (or making less relevant) the Habsburgs' defining possessions in the Netherlands, Austria, Hungary, and Bohemia, forcing them to shift their center of gravity deeper into the heart of Germany (maybe moving their court to Frankfurt). I find the inclusion of actual kingdoms and duchies in the German Empire IOTL (with Bavaria still having a king up until WW1) fascinating, and Germany will more than likely have the same composition ITTL at that point in time.

    You're in luck, because I've just made a lot of headway on the Avis-Trastamara family tree and will probably post it very soon as a reference (where I will also post other family trees).

    Of some interest to you might be two reference posts that I've recently threadmarked and placed at the end of the list. They cover the different placenames and the different Protestant sects ITTL.

    Technically yes. However, virtually everyone (including the emperor himself) sees the region as out of the Imperial sphere at this point, with the Habsburgs maintaining only the most tenuous of jurisdictions. Just like IOTL, within the HRE Northern Italy is considered an entity apart from the "Kingdom of the Germans," like Bohemia but much less cohesive and much less involved in Imperial politics. The Habsburgs still consider themselves the arbitrators of Northern Italy, however, and will try to keep it within their sphere of influence.

    H A B S B U R G W A V E - 大 き な 顎

    Thank you very much :)

    Portugal does still exist, even if its destiny has been tethered to Castile and Aragon. Their overseas empire is advancing in much the same way as OTL (albeit with some significant changes) and their colonies are probably going to retain a much more Portuguese character than even European Portugal.

    Pomerania's Baltic Coast makes them both much more capable of maintaining their link with Prussia as well as much more , to be sure. Right now Pomerania and Prussia are both duchies of equal standing (although Prussia is outside of the HRE) united by personal union, so the duke of Pomerania-Prussia spends most of his time in Stettin but also significant amounts of time in Königsberg. Don't wanna spoil too much, but there are great things in store for the House of Greifen. ;)

    The Livonian Order is going to be covered in the Poland/Lithuania/Russia update and the Sweden/Denamrk update (although I'm unsure whether or not I should combine them), but - spoiler alert - the Russians are going to be even less lucky there than they were IOTL.

    I'm not sure whether or not Naples/Sicily can ever be fully integrated into the Spanish realm/nation-state - it's more culturally and historically distinct from the Iberian realms/peoples than any of the Iberian realms/peoples are from each other, and as we all know the Iberians have enough problems as it is trying to get along. However, I think the union of Naples/Sicily with Spain in the absence of Spanish preoccupations elsewhere in Europe (ergo more Spanish migration and cultural interchange) might leave them even more distinct from Northern/Central Italy than they are IOTL, and therefore more likely to remain separated from their northern brethren - which reminds me: what does everyone think the actual name of an independent Southern Italy would be? (Mezzogiorno, Naples, and Two Sicilies are mostly off the table)
     
    mrcubfan415, TimTurner, Tyg and 6 others like this.
  20. Dargonaut The explorer of all things

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2018
    Location:
    Moon, Moon
    Why exactly is Naples off the table, anyway I can't see it being wrestled away easily with Super Spain breathing down the neck anyone who dares try to challenge them, as for who would want it, I could only see, France, the Hapsburgs or the Ottomans, France and the Ottomans are unlikely given the circumstances of the timeline, perhaps the HRE needs a humbling, even though Spain and the Hapsburgs are allied, they aren't joined to the hip like IOTL, but most likely it will be given to a viceroy, maybe a well established second son or something of the like
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
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