Una diferente ‘Plus Ultra’ - the Avís-Trastámara Kings of All Spain and the Indies (Updated 11/7)
- Thread starter Torbald
- Start date
Who is the husband for Infanta Ana? And who is prince Juan marrying? He better do it soon and have a whole armada of infantes and infantas, given that he is the heir to so many realms.
I eagerly await an update.
Question, what will be the long term effects of the end of the Anglo-Portugal Alliance? IIRC the interruption of this alliance during the Iberian Union of OTL added to the resentment of the Portuguese to the Union as they felt Portuguese interests were secondary to Spain's.
As it is a Portuguese monarch inheriting the thrones of the rest of Spain in TTL will this result in a much less antagonistic relationship between Span and England than OTL?
I also think the butterflying away of Englands Reformation (especially Henry VIII's treatment of Catherine of Aragon) will have big consequences and might lead to more cooperation against France, the mutual enemigo.
Question, what will be the long term effects of the end of the Anglo-Portugal Alliance? IIRC the interruption of this alliance during the Iberian Union of OTL added to the resentment of the Portuguese to the Union as they felt Portuguese interests were secondary to Spain's.
As it is a Portuguese monarch inheriting the thrones of the rest of Spain in TTL will this result in a much less antagonistic relationship between Span and England than OTL?
I also think the butterflying away of Englands Reformation (especially Henry VIII's treatment of Catherine of Aragon) will have big consequences and might lead to more cooperation against France, the mutual enemigo.
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A life of fun and exitement then
I deleted the family tree due to some typos and spoilers I've noticed in it, but it still mostly showed what I intended the family to look like.
The Infantas Isabel and Ana of Miguel will probably be married off to some Tudors (in order to keep England close) or some Hapsburgs, although the Valois-Orleans still aren't off the table. I've been thinking of marrying certain infantes/infantas into the great Spanish noble families in order to knit the realms more tightly together, ensure obeisance from the nobility, and (hopefully) inherit some of those superfluous noble lands - all as part of a growing policy of "Iberocentrism."
Juan Pelayo has been betrothed to Elizabeth von Hapsburg (Isabel), the firstborn of Charles V and Anna of Bohemia-Hungary. Luckily, Juan Pelayo is physically stronger than his father ever was and Hapsburg women - for all their genetic defects - have historically proven to be quite able of producing a large number of children.
Perhaps one of the biggest boons of a non-Haspburg Spain - especially as it is occurring ITTL - is that it more or less butterflies most of the disastrous hostilities with the Dutch and the English that cost OTL Spain its naval supremacy and Portugal its dominance in India and the East Indies. As for Miguel, since he was the Infante of Portugal first (and has also been raised in Portugal and under his father Manuel's auspices), I suspect that he would probably be sensitive to his homeland's storied alliance with England and would be more keen on preserving it than OTL Charles V or Philip II ever were.
Also (as you said), with Arthur surviving, Katherine of Aragon bearing him male heirs, and the OTL English Reformation being thereby butterflied, any reason for Spain to engage in a prolonged conflict with the English - or even pursue anything other than friendly relations with them - is essentially removed for the time being. I imagine things might get a little more tense between the two realms once the English attempt to pursue their own interests in the Americas or the Far East, but it will be nowhere near as hateful as in OTL.
Perhaps a infanta for some noble italian family? With only three children I think Miguel should be looking for foreign allies. Save the doministic one for Juan who it seems will be rather fertile!
I think what is also worth considering is that in OTL Henry VIII at one point believed that the Spanish alliance would help press his claim to the French throne after Francis I was captured. One of the reasons they did not was because of Henry VIII himself.
A less antagonistic relationship between England and Spain will be major threat to France. I wonder how you see them responding.
I think a Miguel surviving scenario is butterflying the Magellan expedition and Spain's hold in the Philippines..butterflying Lakandula would also mean that Luzon is not conquered..it is Lakandula's cunning manipulation that led most of Luzon to the Spanish, I think his personality will also be butterflied, so the spanish can have Visayas in any scenario.
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And, the united kingdoms of all Spain conquer everything south of Mindanao, converting them to Catholicism.
the spanish getting the spice trade is what the spanish get if the spanish were not tied with Luzon..so it is a winwin scenario..for all..and the Spanish would retain ternate..And, the united kingdoms of all Spain conquer everything south of Mindanao, converting them to Catholicism.
But it is fine if you chose not to butterfly anything but the realistic scenario would lead to the Philippines having changed borders which means no luzon for the philippines ternate and celebes instead..
@Timaeus @Torbald
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Actually OTL Henry VIII's England was pretty good at switching between France and Spain. In fact though both the French and Habsburg blocks were more powerful, it was the English support, which granted one side the edge over the other. Even IOTL Charles V relatively quickly forgave Henry VIII, for what he had done to his aunt, if such an alliance would benefit the goals of his dynasty.
@Torbald: genetically the OTL match between Ferdinand of Austria and Anna of Bohemia & Hungary was rather healthy (as far as Royal matches can be), the matches between Portugal and Habsburg Spain (half Trastamara) OTOH were far less healthy, given the close relations between the various Iberian Royal Families. I'd almost say, the subsequent frequent matches between the Spanish and Austrian branches of the house of Habsburg, is something Charles and Ferdinand learned in Spain... That is to say, and I quote, Habsburg women 'for all their genetic defects', was a result of those later matches, which at the point of your TL (OTL and TTL) was not that big of an issue, OTL that took a couple of generations.
Actually, scratch that, I'll respond first.
First of all, I've been absent primarily due to the fact that I'm graduating in a few days (wish me luck, or pray for me, iffen you're a praying individual). So finals, convocation, etc. have tied me down significantly.
You're probably right - with relations with the Genoese improving, I can see marriages being arranged with the merchant families. Likewise, Miguel is still well before any conscious "Iberocentrism" is going to develop, so he - like any good European monarch at the time - will seek marriages for his daughters overseas.
As for that feeling of yours, I can't say anything... yet.
I'd believe it. However, despite the terms of the Treaty of Toulouse, Juan Pelayo is going to feel a connection to Brittany and, by extension, France (due to his mother) similar to Charles V's OTL fondness for Burgundy, and will probably have some early ambitions of uniting France and Spain - possibly through cooperation with the Hapsburgs in exchange for Burgundy and the duchy of Savoy and the old kingdom of Arles going back to the HRE - although for the obvious sake of realism such will remain only a pipe dream (as cool as such a scenario would be).
I think ITTL England might try to press some of its old claims to France, but will probably only succeed in keeping the Channel Islands and the Pale of Calais (and also maybe receive Dunkirk from the Hapsburgs for their assistance against the French). Most of the substantial gains England ITTL will make against France as far as I can see are going to be very similar to OTL: naval superiority north of the Bay of Biscay, war reparations, and preferential trade agreements - the latter of which might even serve to ameliorate Franco-English relations in the long run (doux-commerce and all that).
As far as the incoming France-screw will go, it might actually be less damaging than IOTL. The three-sided pressure from Spain, England, and the Hapsburgs, as well as the rise of French protestantism and the failure of the Italian wars are all going to force a significant paradigm shift in the French monarchy - one that will more than likely more closely align with the interests of its enemies. For the French state, this means stricter Catholicism (possibly even ultramontanism to spite the Hapsburgs and to bring their native Church to heel through a patronato-esque agreement with the Papacy in return for their support) and a policy of non-aggression with their neighbors for a while (which will probably lead to them seeking their fortunes overseas more aggressively). TTL's French monarchy is going to be re-shaped in the crucible of the next few decades big time, and will take on a much more parliamentarian/constitutional appearance than was seen IOTL.
That's really informative (you always have the best insight on the East Indies), so thank you! However, I think Luzon will probably end up in Spanish hands (although with much more difficulty than IOTL) due to the fact that Manila Bay is such an advantageous harbor and the fact that the Portuguese know (or, rather, will come to know) that the key to East Indian trade lies with co-opting the many Chinese trading communities - which will require cutting out the Malay/Muslim middleman wherever possible.
Also, you're right that the Magellan expedition has been butterflied, but Magellan, as a Portuguese seaman, is probably going to end up in the East Indies all the same. The vast wealth of the East Indies and the relative primitiveness of many of its native peoples will spark something of a conquistador period there for the Portuguese. Since there will be more Portuguese migrants travelling to the Orient/India during the first half of the 16th century than to the Americas - while official royal Portuguese business will be caught up in mapping the region, capturing key ports, and assisting the Hindu states in Sunda and Bali - some thousands of Portuguese subjects will be traipsing around the Moluccas and Philippines and scheming, intermarrying, and essentially rampaging their way into an arrangement in those islands similar to that found in early Spanish Mexico. Ternate and Tidore will definitely be among the first to go, while the situation with the sultanate of Brunei will most likely remain at loggerheads for several generations.
Thank you very much, I can't wait to get back to writing more
Fascinating. It seems, then, that the Spanish royal family ITTL will actually, quite paradoxically, be made healthier by its Hapsburg marriages!
England, to me, seems the most difficult to predict of all the countries of Western Europe in regards to what Arthur surviving means for it. While the English Reformation, the Armada, and et cetera have all been butterflied, there is nothing to say that Spain and England won't be hostile with one another in the near or distant future. England's inescapable maritime disposition obviously means that keeping them out of the Americas or the East Indies will be an impossibility - no matter how fervent their Catholic devotion ITTL and their consequent observance of Inter caetera. After all, fervent Catholicism certainly never prevented the French from acting as aggressively as they did IOTL towards the most zealous Catholic nations in the world at the time. Until the late 17th century or during the 18th/19th centuries, English overseas possessions east of the Cape of Good Hope will probably be mere toeholds for the most part, at least more so than IOTL. The Americas are harder to discern, as John Cabot's voyages have already taken place and England might like a release valve for some of its poorer subjects and religious minorities (especially being an island), and the Spanish are highly unlikely to maintain a cohesive grip on well-settled, racially-miscegenated colonies in both its Americas and the East Indies (as well as in some parts of Africa and India) AND be able to do the same in the sheer expanse north of Florida. The OTL Spanish and Portuguese may have liked to have a lot of children and were less likely to shy away from interracial marriage, but all of the reasons for that (whether their Catholicism, their cultural history, or their predominantly male colonists) are all more or less afforded to the English ITTL. So we'll see!
First of all, I've been absent primarily due to the fact that I'm graduating in a few days (wish me luck, or pray for me, iffen you're a praying individual
). So finals, convocation, etc. have tied me down significantly.You're probably right - with relations with the Genoese improving, I can see marriages being arranged with the merchant families. Likewise, Miguel is still well before any conscious "Iberocentrism" is going to develop, so he - like any good European monarch at the time - will seek marriages for his daughters overseas.
As for that feeling of yours, I can't say anything... yet.
I'd believe it. However, despite the terms of the Treaty of Toulouse, Juan Pelayo is going to feel a connection to Brittany and, by extension, France (due to his mother) similar to Charles V's OTL fondness for Burgundy, and will probably have some early ambitions of uniting France and Spain - possibly through cooperation with the Hapsburgs in exchange for Burgundy and the duchy of Savoy and the old kingdom of Arles going back to the HRE - although for the obvious sake of realism such will remain only a pipe dream (as cool as such a scenario would be).
I think ITTL England might try to press some of its old claims to France, but will probably only succeed in keeping the Channel Islands and the Pale of Calais (and also maybe receive Dunkirk from the Hapsburgs for their assistance against the French). Most of the substantial gains England ITTL will make against France as far as I can see are going to be very similar to OTL: naval superiority north of the Bay of Biscay, war reparations, and preferential trade agreements - the latter of which might even serve to ameliorate Franco-English relations in the long run (doux-commerce and all that).
As far as the incoming France-screw will go, it might actually be less damaging than IOTL. The three-sided pressure from Spain, England, and the Hapsburgs, as well as the rise of French protestantism and the failure of the Italian wars are all going to force a significant paradigm shift in the French monarchy - one that will more than likely more closely align with the interests of its enemies. For the French state, this means stricter Catholicism (possibly even ultramontanism to spite the Hapsburgs and to bring their native Church to heel through a patronato-esque agreement with the Papacy in return for their support) and a policy of non-aggression with their neighbors for a while (which will probably lead to them seeking their fortunes overseas more aggressively). TTL's French monarchy is going to be re-shaped in the crucible of the next few decades big time, and will take on a much more parliamentarian/constitutional appearance than was seen IOTL.
And, the united kingdoms of all Spain conquer everything south of Mindanao, converting them to Catholicism.
That's really informative (you always have the best insight on the East Indies), so thank you! However, I think Luzon will probably end up in Spanish hands (although with much more difficulty than IOTL) due to the fact that Manila Bay is such an advantageous harbor and the fact that the Portuguese know (or, rather, will come to know) that the key to East Indian trade lies with co-opting the many Chinese trading communities - which will require cutting out the Malay/Muslim middleman wherever possible.
Also, you're right that the Magellan expedition has been butterflied, but Magellan, as a Portuguese seaman, is probably going to end up in the East Indies all the same. The vast wealth of the East Indies and the relative primitiveness of many of its native peoples will spark something of a conquistador period there for the Portuguese. Since there will be more Portuguese migrants travelling to the Orient/India during the first half of the 16th century than to the Americas - while official royal Portuguese business will be caught up in mapping the region, capturing key ports, and assisting the Hindu states in Sunda and Bali - some thousands of Portuguese subjects will be traipsing around the Moluccas and Philippines and scheming, intermarrying, and essentially rampaging their way into an arrangement in those islands similar to that found in early Spanish Mexico. Ternate and Tidore will definitely be among the first to go, while the situation with the sultanate of Brunei will most likely remain at loggerheads for several generations.
Thank you very much, I can't wait to get back to writing more
Fascinating. It seems, then, that the Spanish royal family ITTL will actually, quite paradoxically, be made healthier by its Hapsburg marriages!
England, to me, seems the most difficult to predict of all the countries of Western Europe in regards to what Arthur surviving means for it. While the English Reformation, the Armada, and et cetera have all been butterflied, there is nothing to say that Spain and England won't be hostile with one another in the near or distant future. England's inescapable maritime disposition obviously means that keeping them out of the Americas or the East Indies will be an impossibility - no matter how fervent their Catholic devotion ITTL and their consequent observance of Inter caetera. After all, fervent Catholicism certainly never prevented the French from acting as aggressively as they did IOTL towards the most zealous Catholic nations in the world at the time. Until the late 17th century or during the 18th/19th centuries, English overseas possessions east of the Cape of Good Hope will probably be mere toeholds for the most part, at least more so than IOTL. The Americas are harder to discern, as John Cabot's voyages have already taken place and England might like a release valve for some of its poorer subjects and religious minorities (especially being an island), and the Spanish are highly unlikely to maintain a cohesive grip on well-settled, racially-miscegenated colonies in both its Americas and the East Indies (as well as in some parts of Africa and India) AND be able to do the same in the sheer expanse north of Florida. The OTL Spanish and Portuguese may have liked to have a lot of children and were less likely to shy away from interracial marriage, but all of the reasons for that (whether their Catholicism, their cultural history, or their predominantly male colonists) are all more or less afforded to the English ITTL. So we'll see!
Actually in a different scenario Luzon will end up divided because there was a traitor that made conquering Northern Luzon possible which is Lakandula and the Limahong attack was the catalyst, it would be a very difficult scenario to write about because of the lack of records..
I had been criticized earlier about being insensitive in TL writing..so write what you want..
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17. Uma colônia salva por uma vaca
~ Uma colônia salva por uma vaca ~
O robusto gado sulafricano
Exploiting the riches that Portugal had gained access to in the Orient was no easy task. The “Carreira da Índia” (“India Run”) was not for the weak-willed, as it required ships to round the entire African continent without a consistently friendly port to resupply at anywhere from the isle of Saõ Tomé to the isles of Sofala or Moçambique. The northward Benguela current and westward Agulhas current also made rounding the Cabo da Boa Esperança exceptionally perilous. South of the Cabo is some of the world’s worst maritime weather, so maintaining a relatively close proximity to the coast was needed. While this was the safer approach, it also slowed down the voyage time, making it necessary to frequently send parties ashore for fresh water. Relations between the Portuguese and the native peoples of the Cabo had been soured, however, by a few ill-advised raids on the coast. By the 1530s, the need for a reliable stop-over at the Cabo became obvious. It was a certain Diogo Rodrigues, discoverer of the Ilhas Mascarenhas and Captain of Moçambique, who would head such a venture. After an abortive attempt at establishing permanent settlements at Baía de Saldanha [1] in 1536 and Baía de Madeira [2] in 1541, Rodrigues was finally able to receive a crown commission for a new port in 1551, complete with some 122 Portuguese soldiers, 18 horses, 63 pigs, 70 arquebuses, and 3 cannons. Good deepwater harbors with a ready access to fresh water and firewood are far and in-between on the Cabo, and ones with protection from the buffeting winds are virtually non-existent. Nonetheless, Rodrigues chose the most sustainable option at the Baía de Taboa (so named for the flat, tabular mountain that overlooks it [3]), and promptly built a stone fort (São João do Cabo da Boa Esperança) and a modest jetty to function as both a dock and a breakwater.
A costa sulafricana
The first issue was the food supply. The terrain in the immediate vicinity of Boa Esperança was rocky, steep, and somewhat dry - causing two food shortages in the first two years. Luckily for the Portuguese, the residents of the area, the Coí-Sã (actually two tribes, the “Coí e Sã,” which were grouped together due to their similar lifestyle and languages [4]) were primarily drovers, herding a Sanga cattle native to the area, which the Portuguese simply termed the “sulafricano.” The sulafricano was hardy, strong, and an excellent source of beef and milk - all of which made it essential for the Portuguese to acquire. With his men barely scratching a living off the rocks of the windy Baía de Mesa, Rodrigues was able to resist his subordinate’s demands to seize the cattle of the Coí-Sã, instead selling the locals the Portuguese brandy supply in exchange for 24 head of sulafricanos (of which 4 were bulls). Brandy, and other such spirits, soon became an irreplaceable bartering tool for the Portuguese in dealing with the African populace.
The semi-nomadic Coí-Sã - who numbered around 15,000 to 20,000 in the area of the Cabo - were decimated by the introduction of European smallpox, and found their way of life increasingly hard to maintain. With the introduction of the Portuguese Lusitano horse, the European settlers and their African associates and in-laws were able to easily out-compete the Coí-Sã - who primarily herded on foot - causing a number of violent feuds. The dire straits of the Coí-Sã did not lead to their extinction, however. Unlike the peoples to their east, the Coí-Sã were comparatively light-skinned in the eyes of the Portuguese, and both the male predominance of the Portuguese populace and the relative comfort of the Portuguese with racial intermarriage all caused the Coí-Sã to be rapidly integrated into the nascent fabric of Portuguese “Sulafricano” society. The success of the Cabo prompted the Casa da Índia to assent to Rodrigues’ request for Portuguese families in good standing to be sent to settle and work the land, and shipped 23 families from Alentejo in 1556, and another 40 families in 1563 - while upping the Cabo’s standing garrison to 300 by 1560. By 1600, 114 families had been planted in the colony over the years and as many as 700 Portuguese lived in settlements, forts, farms, and ranches on the Sulafrican coast and its hinterland, combined with a population of 1,462 mulatos and Lusitanized Africans.
O cavalo Lusitano
Apart from the Lusitano horse, many trees native to the Iberian peninsula were also brought in: junipers and cypresses for ornamentation, hardwood and protection against the wind; cork and holm oaks for housing, barrelling, and acorn fodder for pigs; and olive and citrus trees for victuals (the latter primarily for scurvy-ridden sailors). A plethora of other fruit trees - such as apricot, pear, peach, plum and apple - were also planted to provide a quick source for fruit brandy. However, what was by far the most successful horticultural import was the grapevine. The quasi-Mediterranean climate of the Cabo made it perfect for viticulture, allowing the Portuguese garrisons in India, Africa and the East Indies a much more accessible source of much-needed wine (the average Southern European male in the 16th century drank a liter of wine every day), while also providing them with another bargaining chip in their trade. Over less than 50 years, the Cabo and its satellites had become not only a much needed and quite comfortable port of call, but also had grown its own minor consumer economy and had become a supplier of manpower - “Cabeiros” soon became valued as soldiers, as their height and stockiness exceeded that of the average Portuguese due to their ready access to high quantities of beef and dairy products.
Sulafrica, c. 1570
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[1] OTL Saldanha Bay
[2] OTL Hout Bay
[3] OTL Table Bay
[4] OTL's Khoisan peoples
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