The lord of Espana returns!
!Viva¡
Great chapter. Now the long waiting of half a year start again
Have the Spanish taken into consideration the idea of deporting certain numbers of unruly locals to the New World colonies? Better there than in North Africa where they might serve as a fifth column.
Perhaps, although most of these "undesirables" are either too out of reach to be deported or too vital to the local economy (e.g. North African Muslims) or are the subject of suspicion and therefore wanted to be held as closely to the Crown as possible (e.g. Moriscos). Likewise, with every passing year and with every returning treasure fleet, the Americas are increasingly seen as the crown jewel of the Spanish empire, and anything that carries with it even the slightest possibility of threat to the American arrangement is considered out if the question.
Seems that the next Ottoman target would be the key Central Mediterranean island of Sicily ...
Wouldn't put it past the Ottomans, but couldn't imagine even they'd think they could get away with a prize that large so close to Rome.
Well, whatever that would be the target, I think that would be very possible for them to think in this way... Because until now, except for some (from their perspective) minor losses on the naval side and/or minor skirmishes on the empire 'periphery'; their armies only have known of victories against their enemies.
We, also, should be considered and taken into account, the Ottoman and especially from the Sultan, their self trust (even if they shared it with the Iberians) given to be fighting for a righteous/sacred cause...
So, given the above, I think that de, it would possibly for the Sultan and/or his advisers believe that would be possible for them to achieve success...
Of course, that's, on the practical side an Ottoman adventure/expedition to Sicily from this kind... it would be an entirely different matter evening only considering the logistical side...
Also, if started and/or for the Ottomans would achieve success with an amphibian invasion of this kind would be necessary to force a decisive naval battle for destroying the Iberians/Holy league fleet...
Ottoman confidence and pride is at its absolute zenith right now: the large and rich Mamluk sultanate has been completely absorbed, the holy cities of Mecca and Medina are under direct control, the Holy Roman Emperor has been forced to pay a large annual tribute, the Safavids are shaking in their boots in Mesopotamia, Venice has been forced to surrender Cyprus, Corfu, and the Cyclades, the Spanish and French are too embroiled in troubles at home or close to home to intervene in the Central or Eastern Mediterranean, and Tunis - perhaps the most stategically and commercially important North African port (and possibly Mediterranean port as well) - is home to an expanding Ottoman naval arsenal. There are even more factors at play that will encourage a bold move on their part, but you'll have to wait til the next update for that.
Liked reading the new chapter Torbald. I'm glad you're back to writing this wonderful ATL. I hope that there will be something like the Battle of Trafalgar and or an ATL version of the Battle of Lepanto that will finally cement Iberian naval supremacy over the Western Mediterranean and North Africa for good over the Ottomans. Keep up the good work, Torbald. Please write more of this ATL of yours version soon, especially chapters on what's going on in the various parts of the Iberian Empire (and its allies, clients) and partners, especially after the war with the Ottoman empire over the Western Mediterranean and North Africa.
Thank you very much
There's going to be a large naval encounter coming that will settle matters in the Mediterranean for quite some time, you can be sure of that.
It's back, hurrah !
The sleeping giant has awoken! Because it is a sleeping giant. The total power of a united Iberia is larger than the OTL sum of independent Spain+ Portugal. Add the fact that the Low Country ulcer is absent and a thriving western Med basin that is not depopulated by corsairs and the results should be stunning. Last but not least, the Pelayan Reforms will strengthen considerably Spain, compared to OTL.
What is the situation in Newfoundland? In OTL, the Portuguese tried to establish a colony in Cape Breton Island , in the 1520s. Another attempt possibly took place in 1567. There were reports that the colony in Breton Island survived for decades on its own, at least until 1570
https://books.google.com/books/about/Explorers_and_Colonies.html?id=P7OuMkzGKw0C
By Doug Crowell and Kel Hancock On the Halifax waterfront in Nova Scotia, there is a little known monument to the first European settlers in Nova Scotia. In 1520 or 1521, a Portuguese Explorer by...
www.oakislandcompendium.ca
One should not underestimate the value of the cod trade. By the end of the 16th century, more than half of all fish consumed in Europe was salted cod (source: Cod, by Kurlanski). Cod was perhaps the cheapest source of almost pure protein, especially for the Catholics during Fridays and Lent. If the spanish population increases in such rate in TTL, then cod becomes even more valuable resource.
The Spanish and Portuguese were kicked out of Newfoundland during the 1580s-1590s and had to import cod from french and english traders. By the end of the 18th century, cod was the second most valuable British export to Spain. There was a veritable outflow of silver to pay for saltfish. Source
https://books.google.com/books/about/British_Atlantic_American_Frontier.html?id=oMvXsDXvI_YC
Moreover, the Basques had established a whale fishery in the area by the 1540s.
Published to coincide with the sixtieth anniversary of Newfoundland and Labrador joining Canada, Sean T. Cadigan has written the book that will surely become the definitive history of one of North America's most distinct and beautiful regions. The site of the first European settlement by Vikings...
books.google.com
A few more books with google previews on the topic
Historians have long considered the ways in which the expansion of English trade beyond Europe in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries contributed to the growth of English overseas trade as a whole, and to the coming of the Industrial Revolution. Their concentration on trade between England...
books.google.com
This book brings together a collection of the work of David Quinn, the preeminent authority on the early history of the discovery and colonization of America.
books.google.com
Spain is certainly much more stable, focused, and financially prudent than it was IOTL, and the Western Mediterranean is also certainly better off because of it. This means that the Spanish are more or less free to direct all of their military capabilities at North Africa and the Ottomans, something which they were also unable to do IOTL. As we all know, IOTL possessions in North Africa had to be abandoned due to their costliness, and Charles V and Philip II frequently (and sometimes desperately) sought peace with the Ottomans after each short cycle of intensive warfare due to looming bankruptcy.
However, due partly to the absence of the Habsburgs in Spain ITTL, there is less of a united front bringing together much of Europe's manpower and resources to combat the Turks like there was IOTL. Spain here is basically fighting the Ottoman Empire all by itself, especially now that the Republic of Venice is out of the picture and the Republic of Genoa is a shadow of what it once was. The English, French, and Habsburgs may all be enthusiastic about crusading against the Turks, but England and France are both dealing with serious social unrest and also are not directly threatened by the Ottoman state, while the Habsburgs are completely out of the fight at the moment due to Philip II wanting to uphold the 10-year truce written in the Treaty of Zombor in order to recuperate from the exhausting 20 Years War and attend to difficulties continuously arising in the HRE.
I knew that Spain and Portugal had some interest in the Grand Banks, but I did not know that they were that invested! I'm sure fishing rights in those waters will be a prickly point between Spain and England in the future, and the Danish-Scottish bloc may seek to secure it themselves in order to gain a bargaining chip to help their precarious geopolitical situation.
I think the author is preparing us for the ultimate 16th century showdown: Tercios vs Jannisaries. So, perhaps the Ottomans will manage to disembark, in order to have a land battle.
This will be a Lepanto on steroids: To the veritable spanish fleet of 90 galleys (instead of 49 in otl), add the mighty portuguese oceanic navy. Add Genoese, Papal and Venetian galleys. There is no force in the world that can withstand this naval assembly.
Hell, I would bet that just the portuguese galleons on their own, can go through the ottoman fleet as knife through butter. Dont forget that the Ottomans have less naval assets than otl (fewer Barbary galleys and no mariners from the Cyclades).
That was just awesome. Can't wait for the showdown for which the foundations have been laid...
There's a confrontation incoming that will probably exceed (in a less than 10-year timeframe) the entirety of the OTL conflict that consumed the Mediterranean, so yes, I think seeing the two most reputable armed forces of the 16th century meeting each other on the field in full force is a distinct possibility
Very big and juicy update, can't wait for more. Probably best way to convert the population in North Africa is to use Islam's own system of relative tolerance coupled with institutional inequality based on religion (most obvious shown through the Jizya tax but also being unable to advance in govt. hierarchy) to have them convert on their own over time. Perhaps sped up by mendicant orders preaching and doing good works. I feel this is vaguely where the Spanish are going.
Anyway can't wait for the Ottomans to get their butt handed to them, I feel it is coming. I just wonder what will it cost them. Perhaps simply forgetting about influence beyond eastern Mediterranean. Or they lose land in the Balkans, Egypt and influence in the Indian Ocean hard to say.
Well said!
We know from history that the Ottomans managed to convert 25% of the Balkans through the head tax and negligible colonization of ethnic Turks. I would argue that islamic institutions had limited influence on the conversions, with the exception of the waqf system. In contrast, the mendicant and other catholic orders can be incredibly better conversion tools. The fact thay Maghreb is in a condition of constant warfare, only assists in the conversion rate: communities friendly to christianity/mendicants will fare better than those who will be hostile and face displacement/punitive campaigns/additional taxes. If we judge by otl, the conversion efforts will be constant and deemed important by the spanish crown.
Last but not least, the Maghreb is excellent dumping ground of Greek or christian Albanian mercenaries that in otl were utilized by christian states in the Med. Even some communities tried to escape the Ottoman Empire, e.g the Greeks who relocated to Corsica.
en.wikipedia.org
Iberia and South Italy are the loins of Europe. Their colonizing potential is enormous. Check the pied noirs many of whom were Spanish and Italians: in one century they managed to become 10% of the total Algerian population, even without the slightest effort to convert the locals. At the same period, Spanish could also migrate to Latin America (Argentina the best choice) and the Italians to either Argentina or USA, so its not as if they didnt have better choices.
I think the closest otl analogue will be Russia and expansion towards the Caucasus and the Urals. Anything north of the Atlas mountains could be as much spanish as Kuban is russian.
Funny you mentioned that, there is precedent for a reverse-jizya on Muslims. The Normans implemented such a policy when they conquered Sicily.
This free book preview describes what happened in Russia
Machine generated contents note: [1] The Sociology of the Frontier, or Why Peace Was -- Impossible / 7 -- Social and Political Organization in the Steppe -- Raiding and Warfare -- Captives and Slaves -- Trade and Economy -- A Khan, or a Search for Central Authority -- Religion -- Ideology...
books.google.com
Converts received 3-6 years of taxbreak and in many cases additional land confiscated from their more stubborn brethren. Tatar nobles received cash for converting and positions in the administration and court. By the 19th century, many noble familes had muslim Tatar ancestors. Muslims had to pay higher taxes and additional corvee was imposed. Of course, the church sent priests that knew the local languages and the converts were under scrutiny.
Here is a source on the stradioti
I thank Mr. Jerzy Miklaszewski for his research about the Greek stratioti By Nicholas C. J. Pappas The stradioti, mounted troops of Albanian and Greek origin who initially entered Venetian military…
byzantineoplomachia.wordpress.com
Light cavalry, excellent at ambushes and raiding. Used to the mountainous terrain of the Balkans. In many cases they were similar to the light spanish cavalrymen. Around 25,000 stradioti and their families settled in Italy.
I've thought a lot about conversion and colonization in Spanish North Africa, and it's one of the most challenging butterflies so all the information I get from you guys is very helpful
The way I see it, by the 19th century (or the 20th century even) the inhabitants of the Spanish-held Maghreb will be at least 20-25% Spanish (either Spanish settlers and their descendants, or Hispanicized Berbers and Arabs), 10-20% Morisco (Christianized Arabs and Berbers who are still Arabic/Berber linguistically and culturally), while the remainder is probably just Muslim. Thereare indeed a number of precedents for Christian states gradually converting and absorbing large numbers of Muslims - after all,
It's interesting that you've brought up the Greek and Albanian Stratioti as potential settlers in the West and North Africa, because I was actually planning on having a large number of Greeks and Albanians ferried over from the Ottoman Empire after the war to repopulate the devastated regions.
Awesome timeline!
Spain is one of the most interesting countries for a TL but it's also one that have very few of them.
Also a Spain with so much population will have a very big population flow to America and Asia.
Excellent update, interesting to see how variable the fortunes of war can be to the Spanish and their North African and Turkish enemies.
One of my favorite aspects of this TL is that it isn't an active Spanish Wank. Its well thought out, seems possible, and gives broad consequences on a variety of outcomes. Whether they are positive or negative.
I like that too, I hope I can do as well in that respect in my timeline..
To be honest there ain't many stories with Spanish Wank that I know of or the normal Spanish stories
I meant the general trend to wank the subject nation thread.
Thank you all, I do try to aim for realism, tempting as it may be to just give the Spanish and Portuguese a much, much better fate than they received IOTL
@Awkwardvulture I'm a big fan of your TL as well, keep it up!
