Not necessarily - that would imply the future kings of England won't be fickle or inconsistent with their propaganda!
Una diferente ‘Plus Ultra’ - the Avís-Trastámara Kings of All Spain and the Indies (Updated 12/27)
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Not necessarily - that would imply the future kings of England won't be fickle or inconsistent with their propaganda!
But the current/then numbering is entirely based on monarchs since the conquest ("nth of their name since the Conquest"). If Edmund is III since Alfred/Athelstan/whatever then all the kings will be too, even if not in his lifetime.
Messed numeration of monarchs is nothing unusual. England would not be exception in this regard with Edwards' numbering restarted after Conquest but Edmunds' numbering continued from pre-Norman times.
I am indeed
It is always lovely to see your home region develop in new directions. Particularly this period is really rich in opportunities in that regard so I am happy to see it play out like that ITTL.One thing that bears reminding is that Denmark and Sweden went to war over a dozen times over the course of the next two centuries and those two countries are the ones who have been at war most often with each other historically, though how exactly you count wars does play into this a bit.
What about you Torbald? With that name there has to have been some sort of nordic inspiration, doesn't there?
Nordic Members Unite!
I love the english update, even if I wished for Catherine to have better luck. Also why did you use a old portrait of Catherine for 1502, she was 17 then!
I love the english update, even if I wished for Catherine to have better luck. Also why did you use a old portrait of Catherine for 1502, she was 17 then!
Most messed up lists in western Europe are due to extant rival claims, combining incomplete lists, and including mythic kings, none of which apply here.
My argument re numbering is going to be raised by chroniclers themselves anyway so a simple "we're counting from x event" solves it, with added notes on what the monarch refers to themselves as (eg Frederick III of Sicily). Especially since the English regnal numbering was finally formalised during the Tudors anyway.
I'll leave this up to you better informed folks, but if the numeration was formalized under the Tudors then this would probably be the exact time a discrepancy like this would spring up, right? Maybe a different synthesis of the different dynasties and their place in English history is considered around this time? If he were an Edward I'd understand the obvious break with precedent, but since there haven't been any Edmunds since the Norman conquest (that ruled over a united England, so Edmund the Martyr doesn't count) then is Edmund III's number really too outlandish?
I am indeed
One thing that bears reminding is that Denmark and Sweden went to war over a dozen times over the course of the next two centuries and those two countries are the ones who have been at war most often with each other historically, though how exactly you count wars does play into this a bit.
What about you Torbald? With that name there has to have been some sort of nordic inspiration, doesn't there?
The Swedes and Danes aren't going to be any more fast of friends ITTL than they were IOTL, sorry if I made it seem otherwise. The Danish-Swedish rivalry will actually see Sweden drift more into a Polish-Imperial alliance system, ironically enough.
Now that I think about it I have no idea why I chose Torbald as my username, I think I must have seen the name Torvald somewhere and liked it enough to misspell it when I joined back in 2010
I have some full-blooded Swedes on my father's side, but not much beyond that as far as I know...Nordic Members Unite!
I love the english update, even if I wished for Catherine to have better luck. Also why did you use a old portrait of Catherine for 1502, she was 17 then!
Thank you
and I know what you mean, but she at least received a little more dignity this time around, basically being the power behind the throne from 1512 to 1542 while still being well-liked by most of her English subjects.As for the portrait, I originally had one of both of them at their appropriate ages, but it looked weird because the two art styles were just too out of wack. I replaced her younger portrait with one that fit better, but it looks like I forgot to adjust the caption. Thank for pointing that out to me, though.
My take is that if he is being called Edmund III by chroniclers after his reign then Edward Longshanks will then be Edward IV not I. It's consistent terminology. I even would allow for Edmund being referred to as III only during his reign, such that later chronicles say "Edmund "III" " or "Edmund called the third by contemporaries"'
So I've been considering this issue on and off since the last update, and I came to the conclusion that I would be okay with retconning it and renaming Edmund as Edward for continuity sake. I suppose aesthetics got the best of me when I picked the name Edmund (I have a fondness for the name and for Saxon nostalgia, I must admit), but now it seems not only appropriate for Edmund III to in fact be named Edward, but also amusingly tongue in cheek: we'd have both another Edward to batter the Scots to an extent not seen since the old Malleus Scotorum himself, and an Edward VI that is a Catholic hardliner quite opposed to Protestantism. The double-fold symbolism and humor in this is almost too much.
What does everyone think?Si hoc Deus vult. Edwardus Rex, Fidei Defensor Malleusque!So I've been considering this issue on and off since the last update, and I came to the conclusion that I would be okay with retconning it and renaming Edmund as Edward for continuity sake. I suppose aesthetics got the best of me when I picked the name Edmund (I have a fondness for the name and for Saxon nostalgia, I must admit), but now it seems not only appropriate for Edmund III to in fact be named Edward, but also amusingly tongue in cheek: we'd have both another Edward to batter the Scots to an extent not seen since the old Malleus Scotorum himself, and an Edward VI that is a Catholic hardliner quite opposed to Protestantism. The double-fold symbolism and humor in this is almost too much.
NOOOOOO! No Edwards! Why cant we have Edmund I, by grace of God, King of England???
Like "Defender of the Faith", "By Grace of God" is a Henry VIII addition. Copying the French I believe.
The Lancasters, Yorks, and early Tudors used Rex Angliae et Franciae et Dominus Hiberniae
(King of England and of France and Lord of Ireland).
However I can certainly see Eddie adopting it!
I wouldn't actually mind an Edmund (with my previous caveats on numbering) but an Ultra Catholic Edward is rather delicious.
Btw did Arthur obtain a crown for Ireland? I can't recall!
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There are so many Edwards already! Team Edmund needs more love and it sounds fresher than another Edward!
Perhaps Arthur chooses a completely new name if he's not using Henry?
If he's honouring saints then we have:
England - George (patron of England), Edward & Edmund (former patrons), Thomas Becket,
Britain - Alban, Aaron, Julius. The latter two are mentioned in Le Morte d'Arthur.
Or the Patron Saint, whose feast is celebrated on the day of his son's birthday (like it was with Sebastian Aviz of Portugal). So make him day older or younger to avoid Edmund. Or name him Felix, if birthday is not changed. That would be original name for monarch:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felec_of_Cornwall
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I almost want a Felix I of England, but I think that the english people aren't ready for that yet. Edmund will be a nice transition name.
They are too young, immature, unchallenged.....they are not ready for Felix. Arthur will sate them for now, but one day...one day there will be a Felix, and in the future beyond that.
Oliver