Una diferente ‘Plus Ultra’ - the Avís-Trastámara Kings of All Spain and the Indies (Updated 12/27)

Very nice update!

I'm somewhat surprised to see the Spanish and Austrians not take more, but the terms are understandable given Charles V's untimely death and the incredible length of the war at nearly 20 years. I suspect Navarre will remain a point of contention between France and Spain especially when it comes to succession and it will be interesting to see how a more Germanic Lorraine and English Calais look going forward. I'm also curious to see how the upcoming religious war impacts France given the inroads the Protestants have made in France thus far, my guess is that it will be extremely bloody regardless of who wins.
 
Post civil war and subsequent absorption of the Holy League territory into the Burgundian realm...a man can dream :p
 

Attachments

  • 7451A5B5-AE8A-4575-9751-23959A9A5EE8.png
    7451A5B5-AE8A-4575-9751-23959A9A5EE8.png
    10.2 KB · Views: 332
Hapsburgs stronk. I’m wondering if things stabilize within the HRE that Phillip doesn’t get a chance to meddle in france and carve off more territory.

I wonder how the Holy Roman Empire is going to do with this little victory of theirs. Is it going to solidify a little better?

The Hapsburgs have achieved a decisive victory over their greatest European rival, but it has cost them dearly: 20 years of war has accumulated a gigantic floating debt, exacerbated by the plague that has ripped through the Netherlands (the Hapsburgs' most profitable possession), and without ownership of Spain and its colonies ITTL, the Hapsburgs lack the raw bullion that they used IOTL to finance their endless wars in Europe. Consequently, the house of Hapsburg is teetering on the brink of a serious financial crisis. There's an update that I'm currently fleshing out that will deal with all this, but just know that very large concessions were made at the Diet of Mühlhausen in 1554 in order to maintain the peace, as the Hapsburgs simply can't afford another war in the Empire. There will be solidification later on, however, as the Hapsburg center of gravity remains with the Empire, and such developments - even the bad ones - have a way of cementing the Hapsburg ascendancy.

Poor France. It’s going to be a shitshow there. I could imagine that he Royalists might ally with the Protestants to stop the Sainte-Ligue madmen.

Believe it or not, what I put France through here was actually more or less an act of mercy: compared to OTL, they haven't wasted nearly as much time or resources in Italy, they have a monarch that is intent on tempering the poor relations with Spain and the Hapsburgs, and the religious tensions in the country have come to a head much sooner. The last development is important, as the two sides are much more evenly matched (the Farelards have a disproportionate representation in the military and nobility, after all) and are also both fairly exhausted at the moment and are more willing to make a compromise.

Also, keep in mind that Charles X's mother is Marie de Guise and he also basically owes his coronation to the Sainte-Ligue. The monarchy and the Sainte-Ligue at the moment have virtually the same aims, although the Sainte-Ligue is less radical than its OTL counterpart on account of its closeness to the monarchy. The Arbitres - who are essentially an earlier, less successful version of OTL's Politiques - were the closest we'll be seeing to true blue "royalists" in France for the time being, although their former members haven't been entirely sidelined and many of them continue to operate in very influential positions (such as Michel de l'Hôpital, who is still the Chancellor of France).

Post civil war and subsequent absorption of the Holy League territory into the Burgundian realm...a man can dream :p

Lotharingia must rise again! :p

I actually thought about either having the Hapsburgs expand the Franche-Comte as far as Dijon or having a Hapsburg installed as Duke of Burgundy under French vassalage. Interestingly enough OTL's Treaty of Madrid in 1526 surrendered the Duchy of Burgundy to the Hapsburgs, but it was rejected by the Estates of Burgundy and reneged on once Francis I was returned to France.

Very nice update!

I'm somewhat surprised to see the Spanish and Austrians not take more, but the terms are understandable given Charles V's untimely death and the incredible length of the war at nearly 20 years. I suspect Navarre will remain a point of contention between France and Spain especially when it comes to succession and it will be interesting to see how a more Germanic Lorraine and English Calais look going forward. I'm also curious to see how the upcoming religious war impacts France given the inroads the Protestants have made in France thus far, my guess is that it will be extremely bloody regardless of who wins.

Thank you :)

And that's basically it concerning the peace treaty; by 1560 the Hapsburgs are mostly a paper tiger in terms of being able to continue bullying France, and are currently being sustained by diplomacy and the intimidation factor of Imperial prestige and past victories.

Navarra is interesting in that its future monarchs are going to be Avis-Trastamaras but it will remain (at least legally) outside of the Spanish Union. Navarra's gender-neutral succession laws and the fact that the French royal line has been married into are going to make things contentious indeed.

Calais is difficult to estimate. We know that Henry VIII contemplated re-conquering England's old continental possessions in Normandy and Aquitaine, so I'm not sure whether or not the enlarged Pale of Calais and France's weakened state will tempt the English into going full Hundred Years War once again. A more populous Pale of Calais might also have an impact on England itself, with greater access to Flemish thinkers and manufactures. (It might also become something of a cosmopolitan refuge for Protestants and ideological dissidents fleeing the hammer and anvil of the Hapsburgs in the Netherlands and the Sainte-Ligue in Picardy).

I don't know how much more Germanic Lorraine will be, given that the status quo there has been maintained. Also, France isn't likely to let such a large and rich Francophone territory remain out of French hands forever without at least challenging for it at some point in the future.
 
I don't know how much more Germanic Lorraine will be, given that the status quo there has been maintained. Also, France isn't likely to let such a large and rich Francophone territory remain out of French hands forever without at least challenging for it at some point in the future.

I'm not knowledgeable at all about dynastic inheritance in Europe OTL to make a major recommendation, but possibly you could have the Duke of Lorraine successfully inherit some territory in the east of the HRE, bordering the remainder of the Hapsburg Realm. Both as a bribe to remain within the HRE as well as attempting to create a strong buffer state that can withstand French ambitions, the Hapsburgs swap this eastern territory (Brandenburg/Bavaria? Just spitballing here) with Luxembourg+Franche-Comte or the Austrian Netherlands (in part; think the Wallonian sections). This would be intended to ape the proposed trade of Bavaria for the Austrian Netherlands OTL (can't remember the specifics) You'd consolidate most of the Francophone regions into a single entity that would be opposed to expansion at their expense.

Just an idea if you want to go down that route; wouldn't know when to start. Still, excellent timeline. Will have to try and comment more; just feel a bit out of my league at times. XD
 
Thanks for answering my questions Torbald. I hope this TL can win an award soon. It’s quite sad Viriato couldn’t continue his original TL. Glad he inspired you though.

This got me thinking about several things. Could England and the entirety of Spain be united together through marriage kind of like the way OTL Spain and Austria were united through marriage? I can only imagine what the two could do together. I can also imagine it would further solidify their legitimacy to both American continents as well since there’s one less competitor to worry about. Maybe Spain would be more willing to let people colonize them freely like England did? And without being dragged into uselsss European conflicts Spain could invest more into ensuring total control of both American continents and more explorations across the world to hold more land. I kind of envision Spain being able to allow immigration and settlement to OTL Canada, the Southern Cone, and the US to ensure a permanent hold and that no one else claims the land, establishing missions, small settlements, and naval bases in the Pacific Islands and Australasia to spread Christianity and promote trade, taking over Northern Africa and the Levant to ensure a victory over Islam, having bases to spread Christianity in West Africa and turning them into economic piggy banks, and dominating the entire Indian Ocean to ensure total economic and political control, spread Christianity, and maybe even send settlers and immigrants if possible.

Also I wonder how the Spanish monarchs view the Protestants. Since they don’t have the huge tie to Austria would they not be as willing to meddle? I suspect that the Spanish campaigns and conquests in North Africa will cause the monarchs to try to get both sides to quit tearing each other and get them to realize that they have a much worse problem at their hands, AKA the Turks.

Pretty amazing TL Torbald. I do wonder what Spain will be like for the next few centuries.
 
Thanks for answering my questions Torbald. I hope this TL can win an award soon. It’s quite sad Viriato couldn’t continue his original TL. Glad he inspired you though.

This got me thinking about several things. Could England and the entirety of Spain be united together through marriage kind of like the way OTL Spain and Austria were united through marriage? I can only imagine what the two could do together. I can also imagine it would further solidify their legitimacy to both American continents as well since there’s one less competitor to worry about. Maybe Spain would be more willing to let people colonize them freely like England did? And without being dragged into uselsss European conflicts Spain could invest more into ensuring total control of both American continents and more explorations across the world to hold more land. I kind of envision Spain being able to allow immigration and settlement to OTL Canada, the Southern Cone, and the US to ensure a permanent hold and that no one else claims the land, establishing missions, small settlements, and naval bases in the Pacific Islands and Australasia to spread Christianity and promote trade, taking over Northern Africa and the Levant to ensure a victory over Islam, having bases to spread Christianity in West Africa and turning them into economic piggy banks, and dominating the entire Indian Ocean to ensure total economic and political control, spread Christianity, and maybe even send settlers and immigrants if possible.

Also I wonder how the Spanish monarchs view the Protestants. Since they don’t have the huge tie to Austria would they not be as willing to meddle? I suspect that the Spanish campaigns and conquests in North Africa will cause the monarchs to try to get both sides to quit tearing each other and get them to realize that they have a much worse problem at their hands, AKA the Turks.

I've thought about tethering the English to Spain once or twice, unfortunately, trans-oceanic empires composed of numerous languages, cultures, and political systems tend to always fall apart - not to mention people during this period actually did deeply oppose the imposition of a foreign monarch. An Anglo-Spanish Union could happen, honestly, but I'm not sure it would last long enough to seriously influence either nation and it would most certainly proceed at the disadvantage of either England or Spain. I'm hoping for a more Hispanophile England, however, which is definitely possible with England staying Catholic, and there will also assuredly be less butting heads between the Spanish and English compared to OTL. All very interesting things to consider, especially when it comes to the colonization of the New World and the divvying up of spheres of influence in Africa and Asia.

I think the Spaniards view the fighting between Protestants and Catholics in Europe with a bit of exasperation, especially given how they're currently fighting tooth and nail to protect and expand the frontiers of Christendom. As for Protestantism specifically, the inquisition remains the fountainhead of religious opinion in Spain and - since the Inquisition is, after all, an institution designed entirely for the purpose of exposing and stamping out religious heterodoxy and blasphemy - I imagine the Spanish and their monarchy consequently view Protestantism in a sort of exaggerated, scandalized, pearl-clutching sort of way (something that definitely isn't helped by the fact the most Spanish interactions with Protestantism thus far have been on the battlefield).

I'm not knowledgeable at all about dynastic inheritance in Europe OTL to make a major recommendation, but possibly you could have the Duke of Lorraine successfully inherit some territory in the east of the HRE, bordering the remainder of the Hapsburg Realm. Both as a bribe to remain within the HRE as well as attempting to create a strong buffer state that can withstand French ambitions, the Hapsburgs swap this eastern territory (Brandenburg/Bavaria? Just spitballing here) with Luxembourg+Franche-Comte or the Austrian Netherlands (in part; think the Wallonian sections). This would be intended to ape the proposed trade of Bavaria for the Austrian Netherlands OTL (can't remember the specifics) You'd consolidate most of the Francophone regions into a single entity that would be opposed to expansion at their expense.

Just an idea if you want to go down that route; wouldn't know when to start. Still, excellent timeline. Will have to try and comment more; just feel a bit out of my league at times. XD

To be quite honest, I haven't thought of anything like that, and it seems like it would be a prudent course of action for a family as diplomatically Machiavellian as the Hapsburgs. I think in the case of Lorraine, however, the Hapsburgs don't seriously think the French stand a chance of carving it off at the moment, despite their capture and successful defense of it during the 20 Years War, and are also probably a bit angry with the House of Lorraine for supporting the Emperor's enemies (and thus unlikely to reward them). If anything, the Hapsburg long-term strategy for Lorraine might be to wait until they're more secure in the Empire and then try to pry the duchy from the House of Lorraine on the grounds of treason once it (probably) cooperates with the French again - adding it to their personal demesne just like they did with Wurttemberg.

Pretty amazing TL Torbald. I do wonder what Spain will be like for the next few centuries.

Thank you kindly :) Spain's development will be interesting, and certainly a marked difference from the Spain of OTL...

Oh well there’s always the next war :p

There's always another war when it comes to 16th century Europe! :p
 
ALSO: I've currently got a few different updates in the works, but which would you guys like to see first? I've got:

  • An England/Scotland update
  • An update on the "Second" Protestant Reformation (or Protestantism during and after the 20 Years War)
  • An Ottoman update (which also involves a bit on the Persians, the Mamluks, the Venetians, Hungary etc.)
  • An update on France after the 20 Years War (concerning some internal developments such as - most importantly - the religious warfare going on post-1562) NOTE: I imagine you guys won't want yet another French update back to back with the last two...
  • An HRE update (concerning the aftermath of the Schwarzkrieg, the Counter-Reformation in Germany, the Diet of Mühlhausen, the transition from Charles V to Philipp II, and probably touching on Poland too)
  • An update on some Atlantic stuff (concerning non-Spanish European exploration of the Americas, French piracy and the development of a distinct maritime South Atlantic culture, maybe also touching on Guinea and Angola)
  • An update on Spanish internal affairs and the reign of Juan Pelayo (concerning Juan Pelayo's comprehensive legal overhaul and his reform of financial institutions, coupled with, of course, some nice civil and noble unrest and perhaps also some tidbits on what Spanish North Africa looks like at the moment)
  • An Italian update (can't really say what it involves because spoilers)

Keep in mind that these are all roughly concurrent. :)

I've been wanting to do a China/Far East update, a general Americas update, and a ton of other bite-sized flavor updates too but I just haven't got started on those.
 
I second the Ottomons, they must recognize that with the united iberia as it is coupled with naples union and portugals rising dominance of the spice trade along with their control of tje straits of gibralter that the united iberia are effectively their antithisis. This is given even more legitimacy when Spain is leading the catholizarion of africa and the americas which the porte must see as opposite to their position as caliphs. What do the Ottomons think of this, or do they even recognize the shifting geopolitical landscape?
 
Ottoman update sounds nice. The Spaniards and the Turks are bound to be the Rome and Carthage in the Mediterranean in this era.

The ultimate victorty of one requires the other to be totally broken.
 
I have question about numerations of Emperors-wouldn't Philip of Swabia be counted as Philip I?

Also my two cents about fate of Czechs ITTL-Polabians are not good analogue-Czechs have long history of independence. And without White Mountain their elite would not be massacred. So rather Central European Scots than Polabians.
 
Sounds like the most push is for the Ottoman update to be next. Luckily, that's the one that I feel I can finish the fastest, so I'll try to have it up at least by Monday-Tuesday :)
 
It has been a while since we've seen the Ottomans, it was the Barbary pirates update if I remember correctly, so definitely count me in for the Ottomans/Middle East update as well. I'm curious to see how they develop going forward without Suleiman the Magnificent and their conquest of the Mamluks.
 
Aaaaand once again I've missed my deadline by a dismal margin. Apologies to everyone, but my wife works with children so she sometimes brings back a head cold to share with me, so I've been put out of commission by that for the last week and any remaining brain power has been used searching for jobs. Luckily, I've made some very good progress on the next update, so expect it very soon :)
 
Top