Sorry mate, can't promise you that, I just had to save it from the grave. Scandinavia will be Protestant, as will be many Germans and Baltics (with significant minorities in England, France, the Netherlands, and Switzerland), but overall, Protestantism will be much more marginal ITTL.
Una diferente ‘Plus Ultra’ - the Avís-Trastámara Kings of All Spain and the Indies (Updated 12/27)
- Thread starter Torbald
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Sorry mate, can't promise you that, I just had to save it from the grave. Scandinavia will be Protestant, as will be many Germans and Baltics (with significant minorities in England, France, the Netherlands, and Switzerland), but overall, Protestantism will be much more marginal ITTL.
General Ripper
Banned
I wonder what's happening with Bretagne ITTL?
Also, what about Papal States? Are they still under rule of Pope?
Also, what about Papal States? Are they still under rule of Pope?
Very interesting. The Reformation is going strong in Scandinavia and among the Northern HRE Princes, and it looks like France is going to have some difficult times ahead of them if Charles IX keeps going to war.
A few questions:
Did the Ottomans conquer Egypt as per OTL?
Given that Protestantism will be a significant minority in France, will the French Wars of Religion be as violent as OTL?
How is the Reformation going in Poland? IOTL it wasn't as successful as in the Nordic or German states, but the Polish throne went for a policy of toleration.
Did the Ottomans conquer Egypt as per OTL?
Given that Protestantism will be a significant minority in France, will the French Wars of Religion be as violent as OTL?
How is the Reformation going in Poland? IOTL it wasn't as successful as in the Nordic or German states, but the Polish throne went for a policy of toleration.
I don't see why you "had to" save it. I think it's pretty likely that it could have been avoided altogether, which I'm sure your TTL people would have appreciated. As it is, a more limited and tempered Protestantism will probably have a similar effect for geopolitics. Specifically, no Anglicanism and a less divided HRE that isn't a sink for Spanish men and resources will mean that Spain will be able to expend far more resources on their empire and on internal infrastructure, to which you have alluded. France, too, would be less distracted and will come out well from this.
Spain isn't going to tolerate Protestantism as usual right? Also will Spain eventually go after the rest of Libya and Tunisia? And how will they be able to convert the region? Will the Jews be given different treatment under the Spanish this time?
Also I imagine that an ATL modern Morocco would assign the word "morisco" to the same category as "puta" in the Spanish language and "bastard" in the English language.
Also I imagine that an ATL modern Morocco would assign the word "morisco" to the same category as "puta" in the Spanish language and "bastard" in the English language.
I feel I should clarify: the use of "Spain" and "Spanish" ITTL refers to the realms of OTL Spain AND Portugal. Just in case anyone was wondering.
Louis XII and Anne of Brittany have had a surviving son ITTL (Charles IX), so Brittany is going to pass to him - although his direct rule will only be established after the death of Claude as per the Treaty of Toulouse (making the current Queen of Spain - somewhat problematically - a de jure vassal of the king of France).
The Papal States are largely unchanged, as they felt the winds changing in Italy and gradually abandoned their military alliance with France. The only power that would be frustrated with the Papacy ITTL would be the Hapsburgs, but they're more or less blocked by the emergence of Florence-Romagna under their new ally Cesare Borgia (although both Spain and the Hapsburgs are trying to split his succession so as to prevent the Papal States from gathering all of Central Italy in vassalage, especially Florence).
The French monarchy is certainly going to learn the true detriment of incessant, fruitless campaigning the hard way. Let's also just say that Charles IX might have what could be called "Henry VIII syndrome."
The Ottomans are going to have their hands full with the Persians and a succession war for possibly the rest of the 1510s and early 1520s, so the invasion of the Mamluks is put off for now. It remains an inevitability, though (only an act of God could prevent the disintegration of the Mamluks at this point).
The French Religious Wars will be considered ITTL as part of (SPOILERS) a bigger civil war that they're currently headed towards - the monarchy is going to somewhat side with the French Protestants as a counterweight to the Catholic peasantry and burghers that will be rising up in force. This will only further de-legitimize the king in the majority's eyes, leading to many looking for a change of dynasty.
As for Poland, like in OTL, the Reformation is mostly restricted to the German-dominated urban centers. Protestantism of the Vinteran stripe is very much an urban movement and is viewed by many as a solely Germanic cultural phenomenon. This close cultural affiliation has made Protestantism somewhat alien to peoples such as the Slavic Poles, but a decent number of them will eventually convert. The Polish nobility, on the other hand, has nothing to gain from Protestantism as the only hopes for assimilating the huge number of Orthodox Ruthenians under their lordship lies in a compromise between their respective Rites - these Orthodox are going to find TTL's Catholicism, which will have have elements resembling conciliarism, much more familiar than TTL's Protestantism, which downplays the Sacraments.
With a PoD as late as 1498, there were simply too many societal issues for TTL's Reformation not to be an explosive event. I could have effected some Counter-Reformation changes early on to prevent Protestantism from ever happening (I have included some, as you'll see in one of the next updates), but I felt that would've required way too many departures (just shy of ASB territory, really). TTL's Protestantism is not nearly as successful as in OTL: the Peasants' War (which has besmirched the opinion of Protestantism amongst any Catholics on the fence about it) occurring earlier (by 5 years) and depopulating a region that IOTL was particularly receptive to Protestantism (while the more Catholic south ITTL has remained relatively untouched), and with Luther and Karlstadt initiating the Reformation earlier (and therefore with less time to accumulate OTL Protestant doctrine) and finding it almost irrevocably divided practically out of the gate. Concerning the Peasants' War (again), it has shifted the center of gravity in the Empire firmly to the south (much to the Hapsburgs' favor).
Also, Lutheran Protestantism is hardly Protestantism at all, being still a Reform movement very much within the Catholic Church, and Vinteran Protestantism more resembles what might be considered High Church Anglicanism - only Karlstadter/Muntzerian/Zwinglian Protestantism resembles recognizable OTL Protestantism, and they're all having a tough run of it. I only really saved Protestantism from total oblivion. But you're right that most European states are going to prosper from the way TTL's Protestant Reformation has turned out, although it will still cause some discord in France and England (both of which work to Spain's favor
).
Thank you very much, good to have you
No sirree they aren't. However, the firebrand religious reforms started under the Catholic Monarchs are going to be continued under Miguel - meaning Spain will be spared the Reformation in part because its clergy will be truly walking the walk, if you will. I'm not sure about Spain absorbing the rest of Tunisia or Libya (Tripoli is really the only port they need there), but they will definitely refuse to budge from those regions for the time being. As for conversion, Spain's decision to fully occupy swathes of the Maghreb and in turn offer the moriscos extensive land grants there instead of deporting them has begun to make Christianity more accessible to the local Arabic-speaking population than it was before, so there will be some conversion there (although the majority will probably remain Muslim). Unfortunately, as the PoD is after the Alhambra Decree, there's nothing that can be done about the Spanish Jews, having already been expelled. Now, Jewish culture in Spain is either a matter of bloodline or something practiced in secret out of fear of the Inquisition.
Also, TTL's modern "Morocco" will be one of three states that occupies OTL modern Morocco, and this Morocco will be a different animal to its OTL counterpart (in such a way that the word "morisco" will probably only have the connotations of being a cultural group included in the census).
Louis XII and Anne of Brittany have had a surviving son ITTL (Charles IX), so Brittany is going to pass to him - although his direct rule will only be established after the death of Claude as per the Treaty of Toulouse (making the current Queen of Spain - somewhat problematically - a de jure vassal of the king of France).
The Papal States are largely unchanged, as they felt the winds changing in Italy and gradually abandoned their military alliance with France. The only power that would be frustrated with the Papacy ITTL would be the Hapsburgs, but they're more or less blocked by the emergence of Florence-Romagna under their new ally Cesare Borgia (although both Spain and the Hapsburgs are trying to split his succession so as to prevent the Papal States from gathering all of Central Italy in vassalage, especially Florence).
The French monarchy is certainly going to learn the true detriment of incessant, fruitless campaigning the hard way. Let's also just say that Charles IX might have what could be called "Henry VIII syndrome."
The Ottomans are going to have their hands full with the Persians and a succession war for possibly the rest of the 1510s and early 1520s, so the invasion of the Mamluks is put off for now. It remains an inevitability, though (only an act of God could prevent the disintegration of the Mamluks at this point).
The French Religious Wars will be considered ITTL as part of (SPOILERS) a bigger civil war that they're currently headed towards - the monarchy is going to somewhat side with the French Protestants as a counterweight to the Catholic peasantry and burghers that will be rising up in force. This will only further de-legitimize the king in the majority's eyes, leading to many looking for a change of dynasty.
As for Poland, like in OTL, the Reformation is mostly restricted to the German-dominated urban centers. Protestantism of the Vinteran stripe is very much an urban movement and is viewed by many as a solely Germanic cultural phenomenon. This close cultural affiliation has made Protestantism somewhat alien to peoples such as the Slavic Poles, but a decent number of them will eventually convert. The Polish nobility, on the other hand, has nothing to gain from Protestantism as the only hopes for assimilating the huge number of Orthodox Ruthenians under their lordship lies in a compromise between their respective Rites - these Orthodox are going to find TTL's Catholicism, which will have have elements resembling conciliarism, much more familiar than TTL's Protestantism, which downplays the Sacraments.
With a PoD as late as 1498, there were simply too many societal issues for TTL's Reformation not to be an explosive event. I could have effected some Counter-Reformation changes early on to prevent Protestantism from ever happening (I have included some, as you'll see in one of the next updates), but I felt that would've required way too many departures (just shy of ASB territory, really). TTL's Protestantism is not nearly as successful as in OTL: the Peasants' War (which has besmirched the opinion of Protestantism amongst any Catholics on the fence about it) occurring earlier (by 5 years) and depopulating a region that IOTL was particularly receptive to Protestantism (while the more Catholic south ITTL has remained relatively untouched), and with Luther and Karlstadt initiating the Reformation earlier (and therefore with less time to accumulate OTL Protestant doctrine) and finding it almost irrevocably divided practically out of the gate. Concerning the Peasants' War (again), it has shifted the center of gravity in the Empire firmly to the south (much to the Hapsburgs' favor).
Also, Lutheran Protestantism is hardly Protestantism at all, being still a Reform movement very much within the Catholic Church, and Vinteran Protestantism more resembles what might be considered High Church Anglicanism - only Karlstadter/Muntzerian/Zwinglian Protestantism resembles recognizable OTL Protestantism, and they're all having a tough run of it. I only really saved Protestantism from total oblivion. But you're right that most European states are going to prosper from the way TTL's Protestant Reformation has turned out, although it will still cause some discord in France and England (both of which work to Spain's favor
).Thank you very much, good to have you
No sirree they aren't. However, the firebrand religious reforms started under the Catholic Monarchs are going to be continued under Miguel - meaning Spain will be spared the Reformation in part because its clergy will be truly walking the walk, if you will. I'm not sure about Spain absorbing the rest of Tunisia or Libya (Tripoli is really the only port they need there), but they will definitely refuse to budge from those regions for the time being. As for conversion, Spain's decision to fully occupy swathes of the Maghreb and in turn offer the moriscos extensive land grants there instead of deporting them has begun to make Christianity more accessible to the local Arabic-speaking population than it was before, so there will be some conversion there (although the majority will probably remain Muslim). Unfortunately, as the PoD is after the Alhambra Decree, there's nothing that can be done about the Spanish Jews, having already been expelled. Now, Jewish culture in Spain is either a matter of bloodline or something practiced in secret out of fear of the Inquisition.
Also, TTL's modern "Morocco" will be one of three states that occupies OTL modern Morocco, and this Morocco will be a different animal to its OTL counterpart (in such a way that the word "morisco" will probably only have the connotations of being a cultural group included in the census).
It can be hard as hell to find a good TL on this site. I just wanna say that I'm really impressed with your work. Glory to Avis-Trastamara!!!!!!
XI. O reino do Jolof, e seus príncipes cristãos
~ O reino do Jolof, e seus príncipes cristãos ~
O ultimato do príncipe Biraima
- Um novo navegador-príncipe -
Beginning in 1471, with the capture of Arzila on the Moroccan coast, the Kingdom of the Algarve had been a bi-continental title. The “Algarves” were a realm “from either side of the sea in Africa,” and constituted Portugal’s intimate relationship with the continent to its south - with nearly all Afro-Portuguese trade and exploration being funneled through Algarvian ports. Consequently, as Viceroy of the Kingdom of the Algarve, Martim Branco de Grândola was responsible not only for Portugal’s Moroccan possessions, but also for its ventures in the dark continent. Branco, while certainly more patient than his liege, was just as much of a workhorse: Branco directed the profits from the African gold and slave trade almost entirely to maritime infrastructural projects - building extensive quays and shipbuilding facilities and overall expanding the ports at Faro, Lagos, and Portimão, with similar projects undertaken in Tánger and Funchal - while also improving Southern Portugal's road network (overseeing a first-class royal highway from Lisboa to Lagos), fortifying and organizing the Ilhas de Cabo Verde [1], and restoring the legendary school of navigation reputed to have been founded by Henrique o Navegador, (this time with an actual physical campus at Faro). The total occupation of most of the Moroccan coast and of both sides of the Straits of Gibraltar allowed such initiatives to proceed with an unprecedented pace and security.
Fortificação de Martim Branco
- O Rei de Cabo Verde -
Ilha de Palma de Bezeguiche
The kingdom of Jolof’s monarchical authority was not what it once was, and Bukaar, while respected (and reportedly able to field as many as 100,000 men) had ruled for 35 years and was getting on in age. Bukaar’s son, Birayma Dyeme-Kumba, was particularly restless to succeed his father, and reached out to the Portuguese at Bezeguiche in order to form a conspiracy: Prince Birayma would convert to Christianity in exchange for military and financial aid from the Portuguese, and, if successful in gaining his father’s crown, would accommodate the Portuguese presence, giving them a preferential status in trade and allowing their priests and instructors free rein in his kingdom. While Branco was unwilling to involve Portugal in another conflict while there was still fighting in the Maghreb, Miguel instructed him to proceed, but with caution as to the legitimacy of Birayma’s conversion. Just as Birayma and his noble co-conspirators were amassing their forces, Bukaar died in October of 1525, allowing Birayma a quick and clean succession. However, fearing insignificance now that their part in the conspiracy was pointless, a number of Birayma’s former allies formed an opposition to his reign, accusing him of insulting their gods and customs and selling their homeland to the Portuguese slavers. Limited just to the sub-kingdom of Cayor, Birayma found himself surrounded by enemies, and although he succeeded in driving them back over a two-year campaign, they had succeeded in making allies amongst the Magnates of the Malian Empire and its tributary states, who invaded Birayma’s realm and threatened to push him into the sea. Birayma made an urgent plea to Branco for assistance, invoking their brotherhood in Christ and calling upon the Blessed Mother and what few saints he knew. Branco was wary of Birayma’s intentions and was perfectly prepared to let him perish and be done with this whole expensive enterprise, but met with Birayma and his embassy on his caravel in the Bay of Bezeguiche regardless, to act as mediator between Birayma and a host of Malian representatives, who arrived a week later. What followed was a possibly apocryphal response from the Jolof prince, who pulled from a wicker basket the head of a Malian diplomat sent to him two weeks prior, tossed it in front of the shocked opposite party, and announced he would fight to the death for his inheritance and under the standard of the cross. When Branco recounted this chain of events to Miguel, the king was so pleasantly surprised that he ordered Branco to assemble a force to support Birayma and see to it that his adversaries were defeated. Branco amassed 140 mounted troops, 400 pikemen, 240 arquebusiers, 11 cannons, as well as 700 slave soldiers at Bezeguiche under a group of officers from Cabo Verde, and succeeded in getting them marched overland to Mbacké, where they joined with Birayma’s force of some 30,000 and did battle with a 48,000 strong Malian and opposition army - which was defeated handily thanks to Birayma’s zealotry, the Portuguese firearms and ordnance, and the disunity of their opponents, and defeated again at Tambacounda by the end of the year.
África Ocidental, c. 1500-1528
(Red & Pink = Jolof, Red = Kingdom of Cayor, Pink = Vassals of the Buur-ba Jolof, Turquoise = Portugal, Green = Fouta-Toro, Orange = Mali, Light Orange = Malian Vassals, Light Blue = Songhai)
África Ocidental, c. 1528-1530
While Birayma would shift back into a less committal form of Christianity, he honored his agreement, and Portuguese missionaries found a new flock awaiting them in Senegambia - all the more ready to receive the Gospel after the ravages of the jihadis brought along in the Malian armies.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
[1] OTL Cape Verde
[2] OTL Cap-Vert Peninsula
[3] Imperial title of the rulers of the Jolof
[4] OTL waters between OTL Cape Verde and Senegal
Ritos
Banned
I am enormously confused on how Portugal was willing and able to intervene in West Africa, given that the pre-quinine death rate for european soldiers garrisoned in The Gambia was 600-700 per 1000 during the first year, and ~120 per thousand after that. Quinine was first brought back from Peru in the 1632 and wasn't popular until much, much later, despite the fervent attempts by the powerful Jesuit order otherwise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinchona#History). The millitary force would quickly die off, and I can't see any European country holding any outposts in the White Man's Grave until the widespread use of quinine.
EDIT: Hmm, apparently such a military expedition did happen OTL, unsuccessfully I might add, but I'm still skeptical about the feasibility of permanent control of West African territory pre-quinine.
EDIT: Hmm, apparently such a military expedition did happen OTL, unsuccessfully I might add, but I'm still skeptical about the feasibility of permanent control of West African territory pre-quinine.
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There is no permanent control. Portugal still only controls a handful of lightly manned coastal enclaves. They have succeeded in propping up a Catholic native state however (a similar plot transpired IOTL, but failed because of a dispute between the Jolof Prince and his chief officer).
As for the Portuguese relief force, that was mostly a one-battle affair, and virtually all of them were drawn from African garrisons (many being Cabo Verdeian Creoles or mestiços). The biggest boon to the Jolof here is the Portuguese ordnance. Most of the relevant combat for the Portuguese also took place in the drier parts of OTL Senegal.
I'm interested to see how Christianity will fare in Western Africa.
Very nice. West African history isn't my forte but an earlier and more effective Catholic presence in West Africa will have some interesting effects on the development of the region.
Thank you very much
and ¡Viva España y viva los Avís y Trastámara!A lot better, that's for sure. In fact I think with a native clergy Sub-Saharan Africa will experience something close to the Americas, although syncretism will be a problem.
Indeed, especially when the Fulani Jihads/southward Moroccan expansion (or whatever their TTL counterparts are) roll around. Unfortunately it might make interreligious conflict in West Africa even more bitter that OTL
- on the other hand it might prevent some of the more extractive colonialism and accelerate the end of the slave trade (enslaving Christians and all, very unsavory). Although the slave trade might also speed up Christianization, with the European need for pagan slaves forcing Christian tribes to war against non-Christian ones to supply the demand (somewhat disturbing, but likely).That is really interesting about the discovery of quinine though, I had always assumed it was only discovered some time in the 19th century! Do you think it's at all possible for it to catch on much earlier?
Mali was not "Very Muslim", it was very much cosmopolitan in it's religious structure. The North and Songhai were the Very Muslim. Also, the Spanish War against Morocco would have meant no Morocco invasion of Timbuktu, therefor no Songhai Ascendancy, remaining a small Malian vassal. There's no way the Portuguese could have brought enough forces to defeat Mali this soundly.
I am fairly certain that malaria is to much to conquer but using native allies and eurafrican persons can give a fighting edge. Is the trans-atlantic slave trade gonna take of in your timeline?
I just hope Jolof doesn't go the way of the Kongo kingdom. Which also makes me wonder if you will touch about on the Kongo kingdom?