Una diferente ‘Plus Ultra’ - the Avís-Trastámara Kings of All Spain and the Indies (Updated 11/7)

As I said, if Spain continues to advance in North Africa, then she may lose interest in maintaining any colonies in the South at all. Tunisia and Egypt are close at hand, and there is better infrastructure, and more favorable conditions for Europeans. So Portuguese-speaking Africans can become an analogue of the Boers.


You can still something like this (look only at the New World).
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Spain would never accept a French Florida. It sits right on the main trade wind from the Carib to Iberia.
 
About Egypt:
Spain has seccured the WestMed and has a profitable route towards India and China. It doesn't worth to engage in a war against the Ottoman beyond the Adriatic. They may support greek or southslav rebels just to keep Turkey busy, but no more
OTHO you have other christian powers that will love taking pieces of the Ottoman Empire: HRE may try to expand on the Danube and a holy war against the muslims can help to forget the reformation wars; Polish Lithuanian Commowealth was in permanent war against the turkish from late XVIth century; and finally Russia (at civil war by this era) can also turn to the south through the Caucasus or even collaborate with the Commowealth if Wladyslaw Vasa (or his equivalent) keeps the throne of Russia.
I can imagine the colapse of the ottoman Europe by 1670 with the Balkans on Hapsburgs hands (except for a spanish Greece) projecting power towards Egypt through Venice; and an united Polish-Lithuanian-Russian Commowealth with control over the Black Sea, even keeping Pontus and puppeting Armenia.
After that the competition for access to the spices and China will not depend on religious animosity, so national interest will prevail starting a new politic and diplomatic era equivalent to OTL post-Westfalia but with the big players being in East Europe instead of West Europe.
But maybe asking for an eastern christian crusade is too much counting on their traditional rivalry.
 
Here I can categorically object - the Portа was in crisis. Take, for example, the notorious Celali rebellions.

Well, it’s not necessary to destroy it - we can reduce it by three times ..
The 1600 is the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent if he hasn’t been butterflied. Spain managing to blitz acrosss all of North Africa and take Egypt sounds ridiculous to me I’m Ngl
 
Hmm wonder why I thought 1600 was Suleiman, oh right yeah cause the Ottomans reached their height in 1683. Ehh that’s kind of mixed then because Suleiman likely still existed (IIRC he did) and left the Ottomans in the strong position he did OTL.
Suleiman died at the Battle of Chaldiran ITTL
When the Ottoman army met that of the Safavid shah, Ismail I, at Chaldiran on a blistering September day in 1514, the Turks’ disorganization could not be remedied and what should have been a rout of the Persians and the Qizilbash turned into a pyrrhic victory for the Ottomans, who suffered 23,000 dead out of their 60,000 - included in which was the eldest son of Selim I, Suleiman, who had been brought along to cut his teeth on the battlefield, only to end up cut down himself.
 
Spain would never accept a French Florida. It sits right on the main trade wind from the Carib to Iberia.
To be honest, this is a map to one miniature, and I don't know if I can contact the author to clarify this point. I can only say that the French conquered Florida in 1565 - the Spaniards could not gain a foothold there due to numerous uprisings and a lack of settlers. In doing so, they lost two military campaigns for Florida in 1613 and 1619.

Hmm wonder why I thought 1600 was Suleiman, oh right yeah cause the Ottomans reached their height in 1683. Ehh that’s kind of mixed then because Suleiman likely still existed (IIRC he did) and left the Ottomans in the strong position he did OTL.
The rebellions were reactions to a social and economic crisis stemming from a number of factors: demographic pressure following a period of unprecedented population growth during the 16th century, climatic hardship associated with the Little Ice Age, a depreciation of the currency, and the mobilization of thousands of sekban musketeers for the Ottoman army during its wars with the Habsburgs and Safavids, who turned to banditry when demobilized
The porte during this period was clearly not going through the best of times, there is an opportunity to intensify that crisis.

Spain has seccured the WestMed and has a profitable route towards India and China. It doesn't worth to engage in a war against the Ottoman beyond the Adriatic. They may support greek or southslav rebels just to keep Turkey busy, but no more
Not only that. Portugal's side of the Hispanic monarchy would argue strongly against that because they would lose their place of middleman in the commerce with Asia in favour of Aragonese and Castilians through Egypt.
As I already mentioned, Egypt is corny closer, it is easier to sail from there, and there is a more favorable climate. Not to mention that there are a number of places important for Christians, and from there you can go to Palestine and "return" Jerusalem. In addition, it is worth mentioning that in this miniature the autonomy of the Kingdoms is eliminated, and the Empire (in 1655 the Spanish monarch was crowned as Emperor) strives for homogenization and centralization of government - and the Mediterranean is a higher priority than the remote shores of South Africa).
 
So how screwed are the Muslims going to be with the Spanish colonising (and probably committing some atrocities in) Egypt, the Levant and Palestine, and being so close to Mecca and Medina. The Islamic world looks to be so screwed if the Christians go any further.
 
So how screwed are the Muslims going to be with the Spanish colonising (and probably committing some atrocities in) Egypt, the Levant and Palestine, and being so close to Mecca and Medina. The Islamic world looks to be so screwed if the Christians go any further.
Let me remind you that in the first half of the 20th century, most of the Arab states were puppets or colonies of European powers - including those on the Arabian Peninsula. And do not forget that the Portuguese conquered Oman and ruled there for over 140 years.
 
Let me remind you that in the first half of the 20th century, most of the Arab states were puppets or colonies of European powers - including those on the Arabian Peninsula. And do not forget that the Portuguese conquered Oman and ruled there for over 140 years.
With Spain (one of the more hardline Catholic states) colonising North Africa all the way up to the Levant from the 1500s-1600s onwards, much of the region would now essentially be under Catholic rule for 300-400 years. By 2000, North Africa all the way up to the Levant/Palestine might as well be slightly majority Christian. From the 19th century onwards, the backlash within the remaining Muslim states will push Islamic theology and exegesis even more towards the literalist and inward direction relative to OTL with a much more diminished 'modernist movement' due to its association with the West. And with 300-400 years of inquisatorial conversions, Islam in Africa would now have to be restricted within the Sahel-region from Western Sahara to Soudan, which would be filled with Arab refugees fleeing Spanish Catholic oppression
 
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With Spain (one of the more hardline Catholic states) colonising North Africa all the way up to the Levant from the 1500s-1600s onwards, much of the region would now essentially be under Catholic rule for 300-400 years. By 2000, North Africa all the way up to the Levant/Palestine might as well be slightly majority Christian. From the 19th century onwards, the backlash within the remaining Muslim states will push Islamic theology and exegesis even more towards the literalist and inward direction relative to OTL. And with 300-400 years of inquisatorial conversions, Islam in Africa would now have to be restricted within the Sahel-region from Western Sahara to Soudan, which would be filled with Arab refugees fleeing Spanish Catholic oppression
Spain reversing the Arab conquest of Africa and the Levant be like:
 
Spain reversing the Arab conquest of Africa and the Levant be like:
Yes, through colonisation, displacements, and inquisatorial oppression and atrocities committed, this will be a general Islam-screw in North Africa to the Levant. From the 19th century onwards, Islamic exegesis would definitely be a lot more literalist and inward, rejecting the 'modernist' movement as a reaction to Spanish colonisation. Arab and Amazigh Muslim refugees would flee to the Sahel whilst Egyptian Muslim refugees flee further down the Nile.
 
With Spain (one of the more hardline Catholic states) colonising North Africa all the way up to the Levant from the 1500s-1600s onwards, much of the region would now essentially be under Catholic rule for 300-400 years. By 2000, North Africa all the way up to the Levant/Palestine might as well be slightly majority Christian. From the 19th century onwards, the backlash within the remaining Muslim states will push Islamic theology and exegesis even more towards the literalist and inward direction relative to OTL. And with 300-400 years of inquisatorial conversions, Islam in Africa would now have to be restricted within the Sahel-region from Western Sahara to Soudan, which would be filled with Arab refugees fleeing Spanish Catholic oppression
Well, to be honest, if the Christianization of North Africa is more or less possible, then with Egypt it is already more difficult - I think that the Lebanon level is the maximum here.
As for emigration, something similar has already happened. In 1590, the Moroccan commander of Iberian origin, Jurad Pasha, led an army of more than 3,000 Morisco Muslims, which took Timbuktu. Their descendants are known as the Arma people. In one timeline, as a result of the fact that the Portuguese conquered Morroco, and Spain ruined Algeria and Tunisia, the migration was more massive. As a result, the territory of the Songhai Empire came under the rule of the Morisco caliphs, where segregation began between the Arab-Berber nobility and the local commoners.
 
Yes, through colonisation, displacements, and inquisatorial oppression and atrocities committed, this will be a general Islam-screw in North Africa to the Levant. From the 19th century onwards, Islamic exegesis would definitely be a lot more literalist and inward, rejecting the 'modernist' movement as a reaction to Spanish colonisation. Arab and Amazigh Muslim refugees would flee to the Sahel whilst Egyptian Muslim refugees flee further down the Nile.
It's history. Those are dime a dozen.
 
Well, to be honest, if the Christianization of North Africa is more or less possible, then with Egypt it is already more difficult - I think that the Lebanon level is the maximum here.
As for emigration, something similar has already happened. In 1590, the Moroccan commander of Iberian origin, Jurad Pasha, led an army of more than 3,000 Morisco Muslims, which took Timbuktu. Their descendants are known as the Arma people. In one timeline, as a result of the fact that the Portuguese conquered Morroco, and Spain ruined Algeria and Tunisia, the migration was more massive. As a result, the territory of the Songhai Empire came under the rule of the Morisco caliphs, where segregation began between the Arab-Berber nobility and the local commoners.
Which brings me back to my point, how screwed is Islam here? And not just territorially, but also religiously and socially, as well. With Spanish inquistators rampaging North Africa and the Levant (which includes Islam's third holiest city, Jerusalem), and being so close to Medina and Mecca (assuming the Spanish just go take it and starts doing something incredibly bad like destroying the Kabba or something), how does the direction of Islamic theology will partake from the Renaissance to the Modern World? A bigger reaction against any association to the West (and as such a more diminished 19th century 'Islamic modernist movement') and possibly much more literalist in Quranic and ahadith interpretation?
 
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Which brings me back to my point, how screwed is Islam here? And not just territorially, but also religiously and socially, as well. With Spanish inquistators rampaging North Africa and the Levant (which includes Islam's third holiest city, Jerusalem), and being so close to Medina and Mecca (assuming the Spanish just go take it and starts doing something incredibly bad like destroying the Kabba or something), how does the direction of Islamic theology will partake from the Renaissance to the Modern World? A bigger reaction against any association to the West (and as such a more diminished 19th century 'Islamic modernist movement') and possibly much more literalist in Quranic and ahadith interpretation?
Perhaps. For Spain to push so deep in however would also mean the Ottomans collapse earlier most likely. Depending on how much Spain threatens Arabia, a centre of culture in the Islamic world could outright shift to Persia.
 
Perhaps. For Spain to push so deep in however would also mean the Ottomans collapse earlier most likely. Depending on how much Spain threatens Arabia, a centre of culture in the Islamic world could outright shift to Persia.
Persia isn't going to replace Islam's three holiest cities: Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem. Persia, also, might have something to do about the Spanish colonisation and oppression of Islam's three holiest cities. Assuming they managed to liberate the Levant and the Hejaz from Catholic oppression, would Shia Islam be much more favoured?
 
An important take of the well-researched and well-crafted update is the political control of the Spice Islands. The Spanish did what the Dutch achieved in the OTL. They now have basically a monopoly over nutmeg, mace and cloves. It doesn't matter that there are hostile political entities in the region (e.g. Aceh Sultanate) since they have no access to the Spice Islands. This triad of spices commands the widest profit margins in the spice trade. For example, pepper is not nearly as profitable and no maritime power can effectively establish a monopoly over it. The profits to be made from the Moluccas are eye watering, incredibly higher than the ones the OTL Portuguese were able to make. After all, everybody wants these spices, not just Europe.

The other big butterfly is the implementation of a degree a collaboration between Castillian America and Portuguese Moluccas. Despite the brutality of the commander, the advantages are obvious for all parties: increased profits for both the manpower exporter and importer. The fact that the commander hijacked the campaign is easily solved: the Portuguese authorities will just have to contract not a single large armada but several smaller parties. In that way, there is no chance that a Castillian upstart can corode their authority, while at the same time they will retain a constant stream of manpower.

What we saw here is that the Spanish power projection at the Western Pacific will be unrivaled by any other european state. The synergies of the various components of the Spanish Empire make sure of it. It is both easier and cheaper for the Spanish to sustain war effort at the region.

Lastly, the more widespread introduction of christianity in the region is an investement that will pay huge dividends in the future. It translates into cementing political control far better than both the OTL Portuguese and Dutch colonial authorities. The Dutch did not have that much zeal of conversion after all. Even if other Catholic Europeans arrive, the friars at the islands serve the Spanish Monarchy, same as in OTL they served their respective iberian monarchies.
 
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