Una diferente ‘Plus Ultra’ - the Avís-Trastámara Kings of All Spain and the Indies (Updated 11/7)

Persia isn't going to replace Islam's three holiest cities: Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem. Persia, also, might have something to do about the Spanish colonisation and oppression of Islam's three holiest cities. Assuming they managed to liberate the Levant and the Hejaz from Catholic oppression, would Shia Islam be much more favoured?
Oh they won't but the centre of power and culture may shift to Persia the way it shifted to Istanbul during the Ottomans. Assuming that is the Ottomans collapse and the Christians reclaim the levant and Balkans.

Persia would be the most powerful Muslim state remaining.
 
An important take of the well-researched and well-crafted update is the political control of the Spice Islands. The Spanish did what the Dutch achieved in the OTL. They now have basically a monopoly over nutmeg, mace and cloves. It doesn't matter that there are hostile political entities in the region (e.g. Aceh Sultanate) since they have no access to the Spice Islands. This triad of spices commands the widest profit margins in the spice trade. For example, pepper is not nearly as profitable and no maritime power can effectively establish a monopoly over it. The profits to be made from the Moluccas are eye watering, incredibly higher than the ones the OTL Portuguese were able to make. After all, everybody wants these spices, not just Europe.

The other big butterfly is the implementation of a degree a collaboration between Castillian America and Portuguese Moluccas. Despite the brutality of the commander, the advantages are obvious for all parties: increased profits for both the manpower exporter and importer. The fact that the commander hijacked the campaign is easily solved: the Portuguese authorities will just have to contract not a single large armada but several smaller parties. In that way, there is no chance that a Castillian upstart can corode their authority, while at the same time they will retain a constant stream of manpower.

What we saw here is that the Spanish power projection at the Western Pacific will be unrivaled by any other european state. The synergies of the various components of the Spanish Empire make sure of it. It is both easier and cheaper for the Spanish to sustain war effort at the region.

Lastly, the more widespread introduction of christianity in the region is an investement that will pay huge dividends in the future. It translates into cementing political control far better than both the OTL Portuguese and Dutch colonial authorities. The Dutch did not have that much zeal of conversion after all. Even if other Catholic Europeans arrive, the friars at the islands serve the Spanish Monarchy, same as in OTL they served their respective iberian monarchies.
Yeah I think I foresee Spain actually Catholicizing much of the East Indies the way they did the Phillippines.
 
Define already Muslim. In the 1500s, Islam was still the religion of the elites and was only nominally held to by much of the populace.

Spain isn't going to roll over and conquer the entirety of Indonesia just like that. It'll be through piecemeal wars that would probably last until the 1700s. By then, Islamic adherants would've already penetrated through much of western Indonesia
 
Spain isn't going to roll over and conquer the entirety of Indonesia just like that. It'll be through piecemeal wars that would probably last until the 1700s. By then, Islamic adherants would've already penetrated through much of western Indonesia
I mean, IIRC they already have Melaka and that was the centre of the spread of Islam.
 
Catholic Portugal in OTL had Malacca for over a century and Indonesia still turned out majority Muslim
That's cause Catholic Portugal lacked the resources to properly conquer all of Malaya and evangelize like Spain did in the Phillippines. And also, Portugal was barely able to conquer any of Indonesia before the Dutch beat them to the punch. With Castile and Portugal united though...
 
That's cause Catholic Portugal lacked the resources to properly conquer all of Malaya and evangelize like Spain did in the Phillippines. And also, Portugal was barely able to conquer any of Indonesia before the Dutch beat them to the punch. With Castile and Portugal united though...
Speaking of the Phillipines, Spain only managed to Catholicise the mostly pagan lands and regions like Tondo, Caboloan, etc. The regions where Islam penetrated through like Maguindanao remained Muslim. Piecemeal wars of conquests is going to take time and effort and by then (probably around the 1700s), the western portions of Indonesia would probably be mostly Muslim, especially Java, Sumatra, and Borneo (and especially around Brunei).

Also, keep in mind that tropical diseases like yellow fever is going to hamper white European penetration into Indonesia up until like the 1800s
 
I will say that the idea of taking control of Jerusalem is definitely going to come to the minds of the Spanish monarchs eventually. Their devotion to Christianity makes it that they will consider it. So IMO they will definitely take a lot more territory away from the Ottoman Empire eventually.
 
I think you guys are underestimating the Ottomans a lot here. Even if they hit their high water mark already, it's going to take a lot of time for the Ottomans to become weak enough for something like that to be realistic. Not to mention the size of Egypt's population, which would be overwhelmingly muslim, or the other European powers who would see the danger of a spanish controlled Africa and intervene. It'd probably be more cost effective and diplomatically viable to just help prop up a sultan in Egypt to counter balance ottoman power rather than try for any colonial shenanigans.
 
I think you guys are underestimating the Ottomans a lot here. Even if they hit their high water mark already, it's going to take a lot of time for the Ottomans to become weak enough for something like that to be realistic. Not to mention the size of Egypt's population, which would be overwhelmingly muslim, or the other European powers who would see the danger of a spanish controlled Africa and intervene. It'd probably be more cost effective and diplomatically viable to just help prop up a sultan in Egypt to counter balance ottoman power rather than try for any colonial shenanigans.

I'd like to add that every war the Spanish have fought against the Ottomans so far ITTL has been almost entirely on the defensive (just like IOTL). Compared to the divided institutions of the kingdoms of Spain at this time, the Ottomans have a smoother military apparatus, a more centralized government, and arguably more human capital to draw on. The reasons for the Ottomans' more well-oiled war machine also provide some of the reasons their state had difficulties later on, but for right now they are far and away the most powerful state in the Muslim world, and easily in the top three most powerful states in Europe and the Mediterranean.

I'd also like to add that a Spanish conquest of Egypt is extremely unlikely. Conquering parts of Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia are taxing enough (look at how slim the gains in North Africa were IOTL), and a conquest of Egypt will share most of the same geographical, demographic, and religious difficulties that the conquest of the Maghreb has already presented to the Spanish. Additionally, Egypt has a larger population (~5 million) at this time than the rest of North Africa combined, and is of such importance to the Ottoman Empire that the Ottomans will certainly be fighting to the death to protect it. Spain at the moment is incapable of swallowing Egypt, and a lot of largely unavoidable demographic and economic problems are going to fall on Spain at some point in the near future that will only make them less capable of an Egyptian conquest. Military, technological, and administrative advantages, geographic proximity, a shared religious confession, exceptional and aggressive leadership, and the unique political prestige of taking the title of caliph were what allowed the Ottomans to absorb the Mamluk Sultanate in less than two years. The Mamluk Sultanate was also in an exceedingly decrepit state, so the Ottoman conquest was more of a coup de grace than a genuine military challenge, and in a lot of ways just constituted a change of administration.

These kind of advantages are lacking in a Spain-conquering-Egypt scenario, and there are plenty of examples of the kind of difficulties religious differences, geographic distance and rough terrain, and inefficient military and administrative structures provide. It took OTL Spain 10 years to complete the conquest of Granada despite it's small size and population and the fact that it was right next door to Castile, primarily due to comparable levels of military technology and religious differences. OTL Spain also grappled with the Dutch for 80 years before calling it quits despite the Netherlands' inferior size and population, due again primarily to comparable military technology and religious differences, along with distance, the opposition of other local powers, and the inefficiency of the Spanish political and economic model at that point.

In short, the Spanish are never going to gain Egypt or the Levant in the 16th or 17th centuries ITTL, so don't get your hopes up.
 
Speaking of the Phillipines, Spain only managed to Catholicise the mostly pagan lands and regions like Tondo, Caboloan, etc. The regions where Islam penetrated through like Maguindanao remained Muslim. Piecemeal wars of conquests is going to take time and effort and by then (probably around the 1700s), the western portions of Indonesia would probably be mostly Muslim, especially Java, Sumatra, and Borneo (and especially around Brunei).

Also, keep in mind that tropical diseases like yellow fever is going to hamper white European penetration into Indonesia up until like the 1800s
While this is true, keep in mind that Manila had also been under Muslim rule for at least 50 years by the time the Spanish assumed control, and they essentially erased the region's Islamic elements in a matter of years. the same goes for some parts of Mindanao too. Likewise, the vast majority of the area over which the Muslim Sultanate of Brunei had hegemony for centuries is today majority Christian.

The Malay Archipelago was distant from the center of Islamic gravity, and consequently Islam was transmitted to the region through the gradual influx and intermarriage of private Muslim merchants and refugees. While this is probably the best way for a religion to spread peacefully and thoroughly, this also isn't the best way to ensure religious orthodoxy. The many Islamic princes of Indonesia - especially those in the Moluccas - were still in the process of Islamization during the 16th century (which really wasn't completed until the 19th century and is arguably ongoing today), and consequently are going to have a different, and perhaps more inquisitive and less instinctively hostile attitude towards Christianity than, say, the long-Islamized Muslims of North Africa.
 
I've been wondering why there were so many posts about the Spanish conquering Egypt and the Levant when they just had a difficult time beating back the Turks from Southern Italy and don't hold much of North Africa other than the coast. Putting the proverbial cart before the horse as it were.

Having just fought off the Turks to essentially a stalemate, the biggest thing I imagine the Spanish doing is fortifying their Italian and North African possessions and turning Malta into their lynchpin of their Mediterranean defense. If it's already impenetrable, then make it even more impenetrable. I think Torbald already wrote about Spanish efforts to repopulate the lands that the Turks invaded with Spanish settlers.
 
I've been wondering why there were so many posts about the Spanish conquering Egypt and the Levant when they just had a difficult time beating back the Turks from Southern Italy and don't hold much of North Africa other than the coast. Putting the proverbial cart before the horse as it were.

Having just fought off the Turks to essentially a stalemate, the biggest thing I imagine the Spanish doing is fortifying their Italian and North African possessions and turning Malta into their lynchpin of their Mediterranean defense. If it's already impenetrable, then make it even more impenetrable. I think Torbald already wrote about Spanish efforts to repopulate the lands that the Turks invaded with Spanish settlers.
In addition to that it hasn't any sense commercially, economically or in terms of internal politics.
 
So a lot of recent speculation about the future, but it seems a little misguided at times. I'll be doing a series of post addressing each topic, based on re-reading the timeline and doing a bit of research.
Japan:

Beginning with Japan, it’s important to consider the historical situation of the end of the 16th century and beginning of the 17th century, and compare that to the alt-historical situation which Spain has helped create. It was a period of centralization, as individual daimyos held increasingly large sway over the home islands as a whole. In this case that centralizing impulse has been strengthened greatly by the actions of Oda Nobunaga, which is further enhanced in this timeline by Nobunaga living 11 years longer. It’s probably that he fully unifies Japan before his death.

The question then becomes whether he would involve himself in an invasion of Korea before his death, or whether Hideyoshi would do so immediately, as he did when he unified Japan. There is some evidence that an invasion of China (through Korea) was an ambition of Nobunaga himself, and there was ample reason for it as well. After Unification, which should finish by the late 1580s or early 1590s, assuming Nobunaga’s survival accelerates the process, there would be an immense surplus of well-trained and equipped men in Japan who were used to claiming glory and fortune through war. Getting the fighting this group would inevitably cause (either through civil conflict or a culture of dueling) off the islands was a large priority, so that investment in infrastructure could occur peacefully.

Nobunaga was significantly less hostile to Christianity than his two following unifiers, Hideyoshi and Ieyasu, and him living longer allows Christianity to spread further. His relatively close association to certain religious orders might cause an extremely interesting butterfly.

A greater Spanish presence in Japan, and the east in general, while being more trusted, might lead to some degree of Spanish involvement in the Imjin war or whatever equivalent would occur.(I’m sure that there’s enough important people personally interested in such a war, and enough political reasons that it would almost certainly become a reality based on our understanding of Japan from the most recent update). Now, the leaders of the Japanese would not directly ask Spain for help (they were trying to set themselves up as an alternate to the Ming tributary system after all), but an individual Spanish actor with some personal connection to a lower level Japanese actor, perhaps a Christian Daimyo from Kyushu, could become involved.

The Imjin war failed for two primary reasons. The direct assistance of the Ming dynasty to the Joseon kingdom allowed them to keep on fighting despite the majority of their country being occupied and being involved in a guerrilla war, AND the Joseon navy was able to remain a threatening force and consistently disrupt Japanese supplies and efforts, never allowing the Japanese situation in even southern Korea, far from the front line, from becoming comfortable. A single christian Daimyo from Kyushu(of which there are far more due to greater Spanish success in Japan), exasperating with losing ships and men in the crossing to Korea, could ask a Spanish naval commander (who greatly overlapped with traders at the time) for assistance. The superior Spanish galleon, even in small numbers, could change the naval situation completely, greatly altering the character of the conflict, while simultaneously allowing for a warmer relationship between Japan and Spain as a whole.

In fact during this exact period several embassies were sent from Japan to Europe, speaking with Phillip II and the Pope at the time. Nothing ever came of these, due to European distractions of the time, and lack of understanding of the exact situation in the east. An alt-embassy sent after the interference of Spain in the Imjin war would probably gather far more interest. In fact we already know that King Gabriel will personally authorize the creation of a governor-captaincy in Malacca, showing far more interest in the east than Phillip II ever did, who was busy dealing with English concerns in the 1580s. Gabriel might be willing to establish official relations with the Japanese, while perhaps even taking the step of sending a royal Spanish embassy, which is especially possible knowing that there are members of the Dynasty greatly interested in the east in Italy, who would probably be glad to be away from the struggle of reconstruction for a few years.

This could have enormous implications for the future and for Ibero-Japanese relations and trade in the future! Japan would probably, if they achieved complete victory in the naval war, permanently retain lands in Southern Korea. I don’t think they could conquer the whole peninsula, much less push into China itself, but the Ming dynasty was having too many problems at this time to fully dedicate themselves to kicking them off the peninsula. They weren’t able to do so OTL, though the Japanese withdrew anyway since the continued naval losses made it clear that they would never be able to fully stabilize in Korea. With the changed circumstances, you could argue that they would retain anything from Pusan and the surroundings, to Korea all the way to modern Seoul.

Now one thing that isn’t going to change is that some version of the Sankoku isolation will occur. There were simply too many internal political reasons for it to happen. Primarily, foreign trade was a way for periphery daimyos to gain power and wealth which would let them accumulate enough military, economic, and political might challenge the authority of the shogunate. Important to understand is that the period of isolation did not mean 0 foreign trade, it meant highly regulated foreign trade. Only specific people, only at specific ports. The shogunate understand that Japan would profit from and grow with international trade, and would fall behind without it, but wanted that trade to flow specifically through the hands of the shogunate, to ensure that they were the ones collecting the revenue from taxes, tariffs, and tolls.

The same will likely occur, with the Japanese limiting trade with Spain, and the west in general, to just Nagasaki and perhaps Pusan if they hold unto Korea, while severely restricting or perhaps even totally preventing Spanish travel to the rest of Japan. Free trade and travel could allow the benefits of trade, and the accumulation of things like guns, in hands that the shogunate is not closely watching. Spain and its traders will probably be satisfied with this arrangement, as their products will still perforate throughout the Japanese market, and Japanese goods will find their way to Nagasaki, just that all that internal movement will be occurring in Japanese hands. This will give, and historically did give, several benefits to Japan. It allowed them to develop an extremely sophisticated native merchant and banking class, while during the same period, many Asian nations had these institutions and groups devastated by European competition.

The biggest change will be in the acceptance of Catholicism. The faster it occurs, and it appears to be going very fast, the more concerned the powers that be that will consolidate by 1620 will be. However once a certain number is reached, especially among the higher class Daimyos and Samurai, it becomes a bit of a fait accompli. It’s possible that by 1630, around when Christianity was made illegal and punishable by gruesome death in Japan, there could be as many as 2 million Christians in Japan, mostly in Kyushu. That would be a significant fraction of the overall population, and too omnipresent from bottom to top to fully excise. Further with all European trade coming through Catholics, better Spanish diplomacy and ecclesiastical efforts, a more tempered response will be needed. I’m sure several atrocities will occur, and a rebellion or two might happen, but once the shogunate sees that the international rebuke from Europe is stronger and more united than expected, and that (unlike our timeline with fewer, poorer Christians) the rebellions don’t represent the majority of Christians, a different tact may be taken. My guess would be that Christianity is allowed to exist, by all priests in Japan must be of Japanese origin, and that foreign priests must restrict themselves to Nagasaki, the same way traders do. That would create some extremely interesting future possibilities to emerge, with a native Japanese priestly class, something that the Church was excited for IOTL so should not be controversial in Europe.

For information on what such native Japanese Christian religion would look like, I suggest reading about the practices of hidden Christians in Japan, a group of about 20-30,000 who persisted during the Edo period, and is facing extinction today (due to being an open Christian being an option).

Well, those are my thoughts on Japan. This took me a lot longer to write and ended up being far lengthier than anticipated, as I ended up doing a little research into the origins of the Sankuko policy, and the causes for the invasion of Korea.
 
European Catholicism:

As Torbald mentioned it will develop very differently in northern Europe that OTL went protestant. If you study the renaissance, you'll clearly realize that two separate renaissances occurred in Europe in the 1300 and 1400s. The northern and the southern. Both were deeply impacted by Christian thought, and all of Europe was Catholic at the time (besides hussites) , yet they still developed in extremely distinct ways. The northern renaissance was more interested in things which we would consider traditionally Protestant compared to the, well, very OTL Catholic southern renaissance. There will be major differences.

One thing I'm interested in would be the monastic traditions of 'northern Catholicism'. That is one aspect that was obliterated by the Protestants, and whatever orders develop in England and the Netherlands should be fascinating. I'd argue that a large part of the monastic motivation, whatever drives people to become monks, was expressed by the Protestant tendency to generate small, insular, radical groups that rejected some aspect of the overall movement, and moved to some separate location in order to practice a purer form of the religion and a purer life in general. This is the impulse that gave birth to the Puritans and the modern old order Amish. It's possible that English and Dutch colonization of the new world would be driven by not just Protestants that want to get away from general impurity and 'debauchary', but also more officially by northern monastic orders that move to the new world or emphasize living in the new world for the exact same motivations.

Brazil and Southern Africa:

Not much new to say about Brazil, just that other Europeans probably wouldn't set up shop in the Northeast Coast, but instead in the modern region of Guyana, east towards the mouth of the Amazon. And, more importantly in the gap between Spanish La Plata, and the Portuguese colony which doesn't appear to reach past modern Rio. The fertile and well watered regions of Rio Grande del Sul, and Santa Catarina is where it is most likely for a significant non-Spanish colony to be set up. This would be a much larger deal than the colonies in Guyana, which were basically just coastal outpost, and instead be a large and impactful area, that could directly challenge the local Spanish viceroyalties, but likely not Spanish America as a whole.

A note on the colonization of Florida and the Southeast. As a South Florida resident, I can say that to maintain control of the straits of Florida, nothing more would be needed that a series of forts on the Florida Keys, with perhaps a few outposts on the mainland near modern Miami. This series of outposts and settlements could be anchored by a larger town at Key West, and perhaps in the north at Key Biscayne or Key largo. Ergo, all Florida north of that could fall under French influence. Specifically all Florida north of modern Orlando(the good part pre air-conditioning) would be settled by the French colony in the Southeast. Historically northern Florida was deeply integrated into the greater South, and even today it is culturally and economically almost identical to the areas just across the border in Georgia and Alabama. There's a reason Florida was among the first states to secede from the Union.

Now unto the population numbers and maps that some presented for future South Africa. They are frankly a little bonkers. That is the type of ambition that the Portuguese had when they wanted the Pink Map in the 1800s. They didn't get it, and Spain won't get such a substantial chunk of Africa. The first map might be reminiscent of the final border of Sulafrica after whatever alt-scramble occurs, but the borders would obviously be different, as the modern ones are pretty much arbritary. Even so, the whole northern half of that area would be a traditional colony, similar to the old distinction between European Russia and Siberian Russia. Once some sort of alt decolonization occurs, if it occurs, I'd expect the northern half of that first image to be lost to native dominated states, while the Southern half, which would borders reminiscent of South Africa, perhaps a little larger, would be the area that was most Iberianized, most white, and most mixed. That would remain as a the Brazil equivalent, and I'd guess the population would be in the range of 100-150 million range, slightly larger than modern South Africa+Lesotho+Botswana+Zimbabwe+Namibia+parts of Mozambique.

Egypt and the Levant:

This whole conversation was pure copium and hype. Sounded like something the most zealous of Spaniards came up with immediately following the battle of Otranto. I know it's been a few months, but look at the most recent European update, Middle Sea Transformed.

Spain is still fighting for control in North Africa! Here's Torbald's map from 1577:
1668805272163.png


There's not going to be any sort of Egyptian conquest before the Saadi are pacified in Moroccom, and more importantly, all the rebellious sultanates in eastern Algeria and Tunisia are pacified. The whole coastline, and all the important ports need to be captured and a Christian population introduced. This is critical in the Spanish mentality to permanently prevent North Africa from being a springboard for another invasion of Italy, or God forbid, Spain itself. There is also the desire to prevent further raiding and slaving on the Mediterranean coast, especially in the particularly vulnerable Italian coast, which simply can't handle many more depredations.

This process will probably take until 1585 or 1590, and official peace, with intermittent fighting ofc, not until 1600. Until North Africa is fully controlled, there will be no invasion of Egypt, and that is a process which will take decades more.

Then there's the idea that the Ottomans are weak and Egypt is ripe for the taking! Seriously read the last updates again. The Ottomans explicitly have competent leaders in this time, and the infrastructure of their heartland was untouched, just the peripheral regions of Epirus and parts of Greece were impacted by the subsequent counter-invasion. Meanwhile, the rather important kingdom of Naples is going to be crippled for 20 years, and heavily impacted for 50 years. Additionally, while the state coffers were emptied by the Great Turkish War, it probably helped the economy, which means finances will be doing just fine in a decade or two, which coincidentally is how long it will take to clean up North Africa.

Then there's the worst argument I saw put forth. That the OTL 17th century was a period of crisis and relative decline for the Ottoman state so the same will occur ITTL. Guys, the entire history of the Ottoman Empire is completely different from the 1520s!!! The situation by 1600 will be completely alien compared to the historical one. Here's one little change, the Janissary corp was beaten down and brought under firm control of the state in the 1580s. That by itself would greatly alter Ottoman history. This Ottoman Empire met it's match the 16th century. It's not going to rest on it's laurels and slowly decline during the 1600s relative to everyone else, the last update made that very clear. This Ottoman Empire is never going to reach the same peak of international power as the historical one, but it will probably remain relevant and important for far longer.

On the side, @Torbald, while I was going through the pages to find the 1577 map, I saw that you were thinking of doing retcons. Did you ever get around to actually changing the earlier updates like you said you would? Also any information you can give on what is going on in France would be appreciated. Did Henri Guise get into the whole 'trade with America' deal, or was he too injured? I'm interested in what Spain's biggest Christian rival is up to.
 
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