Una diferente ‘Plus Ultra’ - the Avís-Trastámara Kings of All Spain and the Indies (Updated 11/7)
- Thread starter Torbald
- Start date
And why does Portugal appear in a subordinate position on the arms?
And why did you kill of Isabella of Aragon? You couldn't have let her live and have at least one more son with Manuel?
Oh my mistake sorry, but even better then with the seat of the HRE at Brussels.
That is pretty fair. The issue then becomes what to give alt Ferdinand in this TL. Milan? A good way for the Habsburgs to check am further French incursion into Northern Italy. In time see a proper Milanese buffer state ensuring Habsburg (and in that way Imperial) control.
Now Ferdinand as Duke of Wurttemberg would be interesting as well. Without Spain to distract them it goes to show the Habsburgs have many different options where to dole out inheritances. Especially if Charles ITTL has more sons than OTL
Yessir, Miguel is going to fancy himself a major propagator of the faith.
Also, While I kept Isabel of Aragon alive long enough to see Miguel survive and bear another surviving daughter, it felt like too much of a stretch to hand-wave away her very real physical weaknesses. Her death also necessitates Isabel of Castile stepping in as a mother figure, allowing Miguel to take more after his idealist, prudent grandmother than his shy, semi-cloistered mother. What matters really is that Miguel has survived his adolescence, and the lack of brothers will actually make the succession much more cut and dry.
Your concern has actually made me realize I need to adjust things, however (another male son by Manuel's next wife might spell disaster for the Iberian Union), and I've extended Isabel of Aragon's life by a few years.
So ITTL would Miguel adopt Plus Ultra as his motto like Charles V did in ours? Just asking since the phrase is in the title.
And with the Habsburgs if an alt Charles is born on schedule we could see Ghent becoming the new alt TL Vienna for the now Burgundian based Habsburg dynasty to rule the HRE from. I can definitely see Alt TL Charles putting his brother Ferdinand as King of Hungary while his elder son as ruler of the HRE and all Habsburg lands therein. And moreover will the reformation go as well as it did with the Habsburg not as distracted with such a far flung empire?
More importantly Will we be seeing a possible collaboration between the Habsburgs and the Avis-Trastamara against the Turks? And even the French?
So many questions and overall I'm super happy to be seeing this TL being made
I'm glad to hear you're as excited to read this TL as I am to write it
From what I've heard, Charles V adopted "Plus Ultra" as his motto due to his Spanish kingship and its contingent American empire, as the saying comes from the old "Non plus ultra" (Nothing further beyond), which applies to the Pillars of Hercules (the Straits of Gibraltar). Since Spain is going to be even more directed beyond the Straits of Gibraltar ITTL, there is nothing stopping Miguel from adopting the identical motto.
Charles V is definitely going to be born ITTL, and with all the fabulous genetics that made him both hilarious to look at and incredibly quick-minded as he was OTL. I'm currently mulling over just how Burgundy (read: Netherlands) centric Charles' personal demesne and domestic/foreign policy are going to be, but we'll see the Empire hedged in at nearly all sides by Charles and his inevitable Hapsburg brothers.
Since the PoD was in 1498, there's nothing I can do that isn't borderline ASB that would prevent the Ottomans from having at least several decades of success. However, some developments (no spoilers yet!) in France are going to prevent a Franco-Turkish alliance like in OTL, and some other developments in Eastern Europe are going to make the front against the Great Turk much more competent and concerted than it was in OTL.
Could you see Ferdinand/a Ferdinand counterpart inheriting only Hungary and Bohemia and receiving Milan as a gift? Check your inbox, I have some more in-depth questions and would like some your input!
That was more or less a hasty placeholder until I could find a more satisfactory coat of arms, it just felt weird only having one picture in that last update (lol). The updated one should be up now, tell me what you think
Is there an heiress and if so, who marries her? Without Castille & Aragon, the importance of securing Bohemia & Hungary (-Croatia) has increased a lot. Hungary is an important Central European kingdom and Bohemia is a kingdom with an Imperial Electorate. With no Iberian Inheritance, it will be the main Habsburg branch, who will keep the Imperial throne, and for that Bohemia, an Electorate is vital, Hungary still very much depends on help from Bohemia and the Habsburgs against the Ottomans.
Giving Hungary & Bohemia to a second son is a pure strategic waste, unless he's the lucky one, who ended up marry the heiress of those kingdoms, since his elder brother was already married. IOTL with Charles so close to the thrones of Castille & Aragon, Ferdinand was a natural candidate for those kingdoms; ITTL with the Habsburgs having an insecure elective Imperial throne, securing Bohemia and Hungary will gain much more importance for the main line, added to fact that they hadn't a kingdom of their own, unlike their counterparts in France, England and the Iberian Peninsula.
Either TTL's Ferdinand succeeds to Bohemia & Hungary, in which case he can forget about receiving the duchy of Milan, or he doesn't get those kingdoms and gets the duchy of Milan and probably a marriage with a French Princess, or he gets Württemberg and (at least) Further Austria, or if anything else fails he might end up with Inner Austria (Styria, Carinthia and Carniola) and/or Further Austria (Tyrol & Further Austria); IMHO if the latter scenario applies Ferdinand will get both Inner & Upper Austria.
Giving Hungary & Bohemia to a second son is a pure strategic waste, unless he's the lucky one, who ended up marry the heiress of those kingdoms, since his elder brother was already married. IOTL with Charles so close to the thrones of Castille & Aragon, Ferdinand was a natural candidate for those kingdoms; ITTL with the Habsburgs having an insecure elective Imperial throne, securing Bohemia and Hungary will gain much more importance for the main line, added to fact that they hadn't a kingdom of their own, unlike their counterparts in France, England and the Iberian Peninsula.
Either TTL's Ferdinand succeeds to Bohemia & Hungary, in which case he can forget about receiving the duchy of Milan, or he doesn't get those kingdoms and gets the duchy of Milan and probably a marriage with a French Princess, or he gets Württemberg and (at least) Further Austria, or if anything else fails he might end up with Inner Austria (Styria, Carinthia and Carniola) and/or Further Austria (Tyrol & Further Austria); IMHO if the latter scenario applies Ferdinand will get both Inner & Upper Austria.
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I figured a while back that if I butterflied away every single person born after the PoD (1498) I'd have an unrecognizable mess on my hands, so, like many others, Anne of Bohemia and Hungary is still going to be born in the same capacity as she was OTL.
In this case would you consider a Further Austria/Inner Austria/Milan inheritance prudent for Ferdinand's ITTL counterpart? Obviously Charles V isn't going to want to split up the inheritance, but his younger brother could be a good arbiter for Italian affairs and a firm Hapsburg boot on Northern Italy.
Okay first of all, Torbald, Isabella of Aragon was not a "shy semi-clostered" woman. She was the firstborn of Isabella and Ferdinand and was raised heiress to the throne before Juan was born. She spent much of her life with the moorish campains and some years in Portugal were she was loved for her intelligence and charm. She did suffer a major tradgedy with Alfonso but since you wrote that Manuel coaxed her back to happiness and health, I hoped you might give her a better life. My point is that she and Manuel could have a couple of sons more after Miguel, like infante Alfonso (died in infancy), infante Joao/Juan and infante Manuel as well as infanta Beatriz (did you read my mind on that) to secret succession from the hapsburgs. I would suggest giving the italian posessions to a second son since Miguel is meant for three crowns.
I just wanted you to be the writer that actually write a Isabella II of Spain. And you dont need to worry about Miguel getting his piety from his grandmother when his own two parents had their own in plenty. It was just sort of shitty to kill of Isabella jr in order to make Isabella the catholic live longer. You could have killed of Isabella of Aragon in 1518-1520 so that there be no need for a regency. No personal offence meant, its just your storytelling that I found flawed.
I just wanted you to be the writer that actually write a Isabella II of Spain. And you dont need to worry about Miguel getting his piety from his grandmother when his own two parents had their own in plenty. It was just sort of shitty to kill of Isabella jr in order to make Isabella the catholic live longer. You could have killed of Isabella of Aragon in 1518-1520 so that there be no need for a regency. No personal offence meant, its just your storytelling that I found flawed.
No offense taken
I'm not ashamed to admit that Isabel of Aragon is a figure that I simply knew nothing about before a couple weeks ago. I've also overlooked a good deal of historical consequences in my haste to get updates out.Now that I think about it, keeping Isabel alive longer would explain her mother's longer life (she took the death of her children very hard IOTL, which eventually led to her own death), and you're right that she very much took after her parents - I had forgotten that she was present at the siege of Granada (she was a badass).
I'm a little wary of giving Isabel more sons, however - as likely as that would be, and as much as that would make managing the sprawl of Spain easier. Where would another son be placed in the succession? Would it break up the peninsula at all? I'll think it over.
Thank you for taking an interest, I'll amend the latest update
If I were you I would make Isabella II live until 1518-20 and Manuel I until 1521 (his otl death date). Kill of Isabella I in 1503 and Ferdinand in 1516 to bring Aragon into the union because they wont accept Isabella II as regent. Make Miguel start ruling in Aragon with his grandfather so that they will accept him as their king. Perhaps a rebellion to break the back of the powerful nobility there and for Miguel to cut his teeth as warrior prince. Give Isabella and Manuel one more surviving son or even two more, a infante to inherit the italian parts of iberia so that Miguel can focus on internal administration of his three kingdoms. If you want drama you can have the third son rebell and get inprisoned by Miguel.
Also keep Miguel the hell away from his hapsburgs cousins, wed him of to someone hes not first cousin of, perhaps Mary Tudor the elder. Fokus on strengthen the iberia kingdoms and stay away from everything beyond Milan. Decentralisering the goverment and make taxes run efficient from Aragon, not just Castile. Nurture manufacturing and middleclass subjects such as merchant class, that would strengthen the economy and do away with a greedy nobles. Use the damn reformeration to get rid of unecessary church drags. Marry his sister Beatriz to Francis I of France to atleast try to end the italian wars, build bridges and infrastructure networks in iberia to connect them internally. A iberian king is a exellent way to actually solve the things the hapsburgs messed up and make Iberia functional. Perhaps you can make Miguel the first emperor of Iberia!
I really like aus like these, so good job. Also keep Arthur Tudor alive please. Catherine is my homegirl and I don't want Henry near her.
Also keep Miguel the hell away from his hapsburgs cousins, wed him of to someone hes not first cousin of, perhaps Mary Tudor the elder. Fokus on strengthen the iberia kingdoms and stay away from everything beyond Milan. Decentralisering the goverment and make taxes run efficient from Aragon, not just Castile. Nurture manufacturing and middleclass subjects such as merchant class, that would strengthen the economy and do away with a greedy nobles. Use the damn reformeration to get rid of unecessary church drags. Marry his sister Beatriz to Francis I of France to atleast try to end the italian wars, build bridges and infrastructure networks in iberia to connect them internally. A iberian king is a exellent way to actually solve the things the hapsburgs messed up and make Iberia functional. Perhaps you can make Miguel the first emperor of Iberia!
I really like aus like these, so good job. Also keep Arthur Tudor alive please. Catherine is my homegirl and I don't want Henry near her.
If you want to make it extra great have Miguel spearhead the counterreformation in the catholic lands!
Would Aragon agree with giving away a large part of their Mediterranean empire, Naples, Sicily and possibly Sardinia to a cadet branch?
To be fair marrying first cousins was a much an Iberian Royal practice as a Habsburg or Capetian one for that matter. To a degree these will be unavoidable, still having fewer (if only a little) of these will benefit all involved.
IMHO any splitting off of the Italian possessions can only happen, after the Italian wars are concluded, removing French presence in Italy and minimizing Habsburg involvement would help, though the duchy of Milan going to a Valois or Habsburg cadet branch might too, might also improve these chances. As long as France dominates Northern Italy, the Iberian kingdoms will have an interest/stake in the Italian peninsula. France was already the potential premier power in Europe, the whole rationale behind the OTL alliance between Castille-Aragon & Austria-Burgundy was to protect their interests and serve as a counterweight. That it ended in an inheritance was unforeseen.
Nurturing a middle class and manufacturing would be a wise move. Still organizing how to run the 3 kingdoms will be a challenge in itself and IMHO is likely to take more than one reign.
Didn't a number of medieval Iberian monarchs already claim the title: Imperator totius Hispaniae (or variants thereof). Granted that was not widely accepted, certainly not outside the Iberian peninsula.
Okay, but the focus on making the italian parts more like one cohersive unit then? And melding the three crowns together will take a long while, I never said it would be a easy task. But having a ruler who is focused on iberia and not austria, burgundy or far away makes the chances of a more united iberia. That was what I meant. Or perhaps ending the italian wars earlier.
Nope and any attempt at during so will be blocked by the nobles in Aragon's Parliament if not outright rebellion across all of the Estates.
Exactly, even the Spanish Habsburgs didn't have that level of centralization and it took till Phillip V, a Bourbon to bring them all together as a unified state.
Well to be fair the spanish hapsburgs were having their hands full with the bloody netherlands so this might go both faster and better.
At least give Miguel a brother to help with this ginormous realm. Its always good to have a back-up infante, it brings stability. Plus less worries in Portugal about union with Castile-Aragon with a heir and spare too.
Also dont kill of Arthur Tudor please?
At least give Miguel a brother to help with this ginormous realm. Its always good to have a back-up infante, it brings stability. Plus less worries in Portugal about union with Castile-Aragon with a heir and spare too.
Also dont kill of Arthur Tudor please?
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Early to start thinking about Nobiliary revolts must be remembered that the Iberian Monarchs have got to theirs commands a very strong (and permanent) royal army under his control. Besides the many privilege that were granted to the nobles and in special within them to the 'Grandees' of Spain in change from their fidelity and service him in the royal armies.
Therefore, unless the Aristocracy feel selves too threatened their privileges and /or the traditional 'Fueros'* both theirs own (Noble class privileges) and/or from their respective kingdoms (to which the monarch must traditionality have sworn to respect them).
I think that would be doubtfully that any factious noble would obtain sufficient support to be They threaten to raise the banner of rebellion but even if they did, the rebels would hardly be a serious threat to the Crown. The only exceptions to the previous situation would be if they were able to expand their base of support of their cause to the other 'orders' of society as much by eventual Royal policies or radical changes of the traditional Royal Policies and / or if based on the above, Will be able to flag their cause as a nationalist (either a 'peripheral' or 'central' one). However, the question remains as to how they could prevent their forces from being defeated in the short or medium term by the much more experienced and strong royal armies and 'militias'.
*Fuero/s could would mean or applied to the Royal charters granted to villages, towns and regions by Spanish monarchs in the Middle Ages and which established their 'rights and obligations'.
The Navarrese and Basques' Fueros by example mean that to them were granted to keep (under the Royal authority) certain traditionals privileges that had received in the Middle Age or 'Early modernity'.
This case that had/'enjoyed' from some degree of fiscal autonomy, their own local administration and or legal/judicial system, exemption from military service outside theirs provinces).
Therefore, unless the Aristocracy feel selves too threatened their privileges and /or the traditional 'Fueros'* both theirs own (Noble class privileges) and/or from their respective kingdoms (to which the monarch must traditionality have sworn to respect them).
I think that would be doubtfully that any factious noble would obtain sufficient support to be They threaten to raise the banner of rebellion but even if they did, the rebels would hardly be a serious threat to the Crown. The only exceptions to the previous situation would be if they were able to expand their base of support of their cause to the other 'orders' of society as much by eventual Royal policies or radical changes of the traditional Royal Policies and / or if based on the above, Will be able to flag their cause as a nationalist (either a 'peripheral' or 'central' one). However, the question remains as to how they could prevent their forces from being defeated in the short or medium term by the much more experienced and strong royal armies and 'militias'.
*Fuero/s could would mean or applied to the Royal charters granted to villages, towns and regions by Spanish monarchs in the Middle Ages and which established their 'rights and obligations'.
The Navarrese and Basques' Fueros by example mean that to them were granted to keep (under the Royal authority) certain traditionals privileges that had received in the Middle Age or 'Early modernity'.
This case that had/'enjoyed' from some degree of fiscal autonomy, their own local administration and or legal/judicial system, exemption from military service outside theirs provinces).
I think also the Kings of Naples (and Jerusalem) from Louis II onwards were also technically Latin Roman Emperors albeit the title lapsed through disuse.
Miguel could revive this if sufficiently anti-Ottoman.
In OTL, the last titular Byzantine Emperor, Andreas Palaiologos, sold his title to Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabella of Castile in 1502, so if in TTL it also happened, it could be used as a legitimation to be considered Emperor (Roman Emperor, in fact, not just Spanish).