What if the Byzantines successfully kept the Umayyads from conquering the Exarchate of Africa in the 7th century? How would the Western Mediterranean develop without the Islamic conquest?
Umayyads don't conquer North Africa
- Thread starter Hermanubis
- Start date
IIRC, once the Arabs got to Carthage proper, the exarchate put up a resistance, managing to hold them off for a few decades.
If Carthage can manage to hold out until one of the early Islamic civil wars, they might just make it. Of course, that's no small matter, so perhaps the Byzantines adopt the strategy of inciting civil wars earlier and more effectively?
If Carthage can manage to hold out until one of the early Islamic civil wars, they might just make it. Of course, that's no small matter, so perhaps the Byzantines adopt the strategy of inciting civil wars earlier and more effectively?
If I Recall CorrectlyIf its just Carthage that ends up surviving though I dont see many large butterflies.....
(and I can never remember what IIRC means...)
Carthage surviving would have huge butterflies. The Byzantines keep one of their richest provinces and main suppliers of grain. The Caliphate doesn't reach Spain, so Visigothia and the remnants of the Byzantine province survive. From there, the butterflies would change everything.
The thing is though that the Byzantines holding Carthage would completely screw with any Arab attempts to campaign further west. Even IOTL, the native Berbers put up quite a fight against the Arabs. Control of Carthage would give control of both land and sea lanes to lands further west, and there is no way the Arabs can push through without securing their supply lines.
Zimmerwald1915
Banned
This.
This is North Africa we're talking about. It's not all that rich in bases, and bypassing even one city not only stretches your supply lines to the breaking point, but places a dangerous threat on the flank of said supply lines. An Arab attempt to simply bypass Carthage even if it's just the city and a few surrounding areas) would simply lead to a Byzantine offensive south the moment the Arabs turn their attention somewhere further west.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
If I Recall Correctly
Carthage surviving would have huge butterflies. The Byzantines keep one of their richest provinces and main suppliers of grain. The Caliphate doesn't reach Spain, so Visigothia and the remnants of the Byzantine province survive. From there, the butterflies would change everything.
I think that's a little optimistic. If the Byzantines hold onto "Tunisia", there are still a lot of practical problems with them holding onto African and Spanish possessions in the long term - not least of which distance, language, and lots of hostile neighbors - including the Muslims in Egypt, which will always be a threat.
I'm not sure what the impact would be; I suppose Africa and Italy could be mutually supporting in the best case, but that doesn't seem all that likely. in the fantasy scenario, maybe a Super-Exarchate encompassing S. Italy, Sicily, and Africa.
Could this uber-Exarchate contest Charlemagne's claims for being Emperor of the West, if it ever gets out from under Byzantine control?
Zimmerwald1915
Banned
Probably, particularly since Charlemagne's claims came in a large part from the Pope, who the Byzantines would hold in rather lower regard than do western Christians.
The Exarchate of Africa ruled over Beleares, Corsica and Sardinia..... Perhaps Sicily would be transferred to their rule, so that they have a larger population base to draw army from to defend Africa?