Ultimate Make the Biggest and Bestest UK Forces

KillerT

Just that. Stick any wacky ideas here, bearing in mind the following limitations:
1. UK defence spending can only reach maximum of 15% of Tax Revenues in a given year (excepting in general and total war)
2. UK population might now be 63 million (could be 66 million for all anyone knows as our borders were very leaky through Bliars and Brownjobs years)
3. UK military combined has never (except in war) exceeded 600000 and if you want more then its 2 years national service for every 18 yr old/deferred 21yr olds.
Right get cracking...

4.You can have your own start line/timeline that is unique to you although it MUST commence from the death of Victoria. The dawning of a new age?
 

ThatGuyOverThere

WW1 still happens, but with an enetente victory by 1916 at the latest, ideally with a massive naval battle ala jutland ending in a decisive British victory. If fascism still takes hold in Italy, which I'd still say is possible, confrontation over Ethiopia leads to a war and victory in 35/36, a revanchist Germany (could be Nazis) defeated in a short victorious war, Japan is still hyper-militarist and instigates a war in the Pacific, ending in 2/3 years with either French-Anglo-American invasion, or ideally, nukes. Basically OTLs WW2, but split into 3 wars that Britain and its allies all win quickly without bankrupting themselves. Some form of federal Empire seems necessary, if done properly a "core commonwealth" of Britain, the white dominions, Malaysia, Singapore, oil rich holdings in the Middle East and maybe some African holdings, which become developed enough to be profitable, would be fairly rich and a definite 2nd/3rd power in the world. I can see such an organisation having 8/10 carrier groups, 8/10 amphibious assault groups, strategic bombers, stealth fighters, the works. Something butterflying the Labour party, or at least it's more pacifist elements, away would help too. I think the idea of an Anglo-German alliance, whilst nice in theory, would ultimately be bad for the UK. Germany would have continental hegemony, and Britain would probably be largely locked out of the European market, making it poorer. Besides, if war does come in the future, Britain faces a good chance of losing against Germany, especially if Italy, Austro-Hungary and the Ottomans go Germanys way. Large militaries need a large potential threat to justify them, perhaps Russia still goes Communist, or becomes ultra-nationalist and aggressive. A China that "rises" earlier may also be a big enough threat. Heres a rough gueestimate TL with plenty of potential threats:
30s/40s- Italy, Germany, Japan
50s- colonial rebellion, Malaya emergency Korea, ideally no Suez
60s- spread of communism/some other threatening ideology, revanchist Japan/Germany(bit of a cliche I know)?, Konfrontasi "goes hot"
70s-unrest in Middle East, Turkey-Cyprus, intervention in South America- maybe Falklands are threatened?
80s- Falklands, maybe with other countries helping out both sides, Iran?
90s- Balkans, Middle East, Indonesia again?
2000 onwards-China, intervention in Africa
This is all just really based on a quick glance at wikipedia to see what was happening when. All the while, Russia and China are "the big bad". Only problem is that most of these wouldnt really justify big ticket items like jets, carriers etc, they're more limited. I know it seems a bit unlikely, but a century of warfare/ the threat of warfare isnt really that far off what we saw in OTL


I think Britain would still need to be fairly close to the US, they have alot of shared interests and opportunities to mutually benefit each other, and a more powerful UK would lead to a much more equal "special relationship"
 
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stevep

KillerT

To make the biggest and best force really needs the biggest and most powerful Britain, but also probably under some degree of pressure to prompt the military spending. [The biggest, without the best, could be achieved by a totalitarian Britain - N Korea on steroids:eek: - but highly unlikely to be the best].

It also depends on what you assume as Britain. If you could include a commonwealth federation in which case you could have a much more powerful state.

I'm also assuming biggest and best in compared to other possible Britain's without massive tech-wanking rather than biggest in that world - say a 10,000 men British army in a world in which an insular position and much better investment in health and science meant Britain was the only state that is still in existence after a lethal world pandemic with about a 99.9% death rate. [It wasn't us honest gov:rolleyes:]

Given those parameters the way which gives the biggest forces without going totally ASB would involve taking down the US as there's only really room for one major maritime power and as long as Britain is a viable military and economic rival, by capacity history shows that the US will be hostile. A still powerful and hostile but weakened US would also be the best possible incentive for Canada to be included in a commonwealth federation. However Taking down the US would be bloody difficult with a 1901 POD and also need a good bit of luck so I will discard that.

Simpliest way might be a slightly earlier WWI. If say even a couple of years earlier, say coming off the 1st Balkan war or the 2nd Moroccan crisis. This has a couple of advantages. I think the French hadn't adopted Plan XVII at the time so their more likely to have a head-to-head clash on the Belgium border which will be very expensive for Germany compared to OTL. Also the Haber Process won't have been as advanced at the time.

Hence the war ends relatively quickly, say late 13 or early 14 with a limited German defeat and much lighter losses by all involved, especially Britain which is still in early stages of mobilising. At the same time it shows up some of the military, economic and industrial shortcomings and prompts their resolution.

Also without the massive blood-loss, especially amongst the loyalists and moderate Catholics it's far more likely that Ireland never sees the extremist uprising and hence stays part of the union. Finally home rule agreed for both Ireland and Ulster, which prompts some unrest from the extremists on both sides of the sectarian divide but their isolated and suppressed.

America still launches it's huge 1916 naval programme, prompting the Japanese response and after a short delay the British one. Britain has learnt most of the lessons from OTL WWI and is in a much better economic condition. Hence, once the US refuses suggestions of a conference to limit naval forces Britain responds and also concerned about the US programme and wild talk by some politicians the alliance with Japan is renewed.

...

Periodically tensions and possible a 2nd European war, say after the collapse of the Russian regime or unrest in Austria-Hungary. However no major destruction of the balance of power in Europe. Tension with the US maintains both the alliance with Japan and a large level of democracy in the later. Social and economic reform prompted by WWI means that the country is stronger and more vigerous.

Ideally there would be some federation of the white dominions and probably some key areas such as Singapore, Malta, possibly Malaya as a whole and continued influence in the Persian Gulf but most of the empire is given independence, somewhat more orderly than OTL.

Occasional tensions in Europe and America keep military investment pretty high and in the last few years tension has risen in both areas, meaning that an arms race has developed and hence force sizes, especially in the navy, the air elements of the naval and army and the space forces are expanding.

Steve

KillerT said:
Just that. Stick any wacky ideas here, bearing in mind the following limitations:
1. UK defence spending can only reach maximum of 15% of Tax Revenues in a given year (excepting in general and total war)
2. UK population might now be 63 million (could be 66 million for all anyone knows as our borders were very leaky through Bliars and Brownjobs years)
3. UK military combined has never (except in war) exceeded 600000 and if you want more then its 2 years national service for every 18 yr old/deferred 21yr olds.
Right get cracking...

4.You can have your own start line/timeline that is unique to you although it MUST commence from the death of Victoria. The dawning of a new age?
Click to expand...
 

ThatGuyOverThere

stevep said:
KillerT

To make the biggest and best force really needs the biggest and most powerful Britain, but also probably under some degree of pressure to prompt the military spending. [The biggest, without the best, could be achieved by a totalitarian Britain - N Korea on steroids:eek: - but highly unlikely to be the best].

It also depends on what you assume as Britain. If you could include a commonwealth federation in which case you could have a much more powerful state.

I'm also assuming biggest and best in compared to other possible Britain's without massive tech-wanking rather than biggest in that world - say a 10,000 men British army in a world in which an insular position and much better investment in health and science meant Britain was the only state that is still in existence after a lethal world pandemic with about a 99.9% death rate. [It wasn't us honest gov:rolleyes:]

Given those parameters the way which gives the biggest forces without going totally ASB would involve taking down the US as there's only really room for one major maritime power and as long as Britain is a viable military and economic rival, by capacity history shows that the US will be hostile. A still powerful and hostile but weakened US would also be the best possible incentive for Canada to be included in a commonwealth federation. However Taking down the US would be bloody difficult with a 1901 POD and also need a good bit of luck so I will discard that.

Simpliest way might be a slightly earlier WWI. If say even a couple of years earlier, say coming off the 1st Balkan war or the 2nd Moroccan crisis. This has a couple of advantages. I think the French hadn't adopted Plan XVII at the time so their more likely to have a head-to-head clash on the Belgium border which will be very expensive for Germany compared to OTL. Also the Haber Process won't have been as advanced at the time.

Hence the war ends relatively quickly, say late 13 or early 14 with a limited German defeat and much lighter losses by all involved, especially Britain which is still in early stages of mobilising. At the same time it shows up some of the military, economic and industrial shortcomings and prompts their resolution.


America still launches it's huge 1916 naval programme, prompting the Japanese response and after a short delay the British one. Britain has learnt most of the lessons from OTL WWI and is in a much better economic condition. Hence, once the US refuses suggestions of a conference to limit naval forces Britain responds and also concerned about the US programme and wild talk by some politicians the alliance with Japan is renewed.

...


Ideally there would be some federation of the white dominions and probably some key areas such as Singapore, Malta, possibly Malaya as a whole and continued influence in the Persian Gulf but most of the empire is given independence, somewhat more orderly than OTL.

Occasional tensions in Europe and America keep military investment pretty high and in the last few years tension has risen in both areas, meaning that an arms race has developed and hence force sizes, especially in the navy, the air elements of the naval and army and the space forces are expanding.

Steve
Click to expand...

I dont know if tension with the US is necessary, or even a good idea. US/UK co-operation has brought several advantages, in the field of technology sharing etc. Besides, with a 1901 POD, I'd say its almost inevitable that the US will over take the UK/Commonwealth. An alliance between two relatively similar states would probably be the best bet, especially if they share common interests in the Pacific. I'd agree that Britain really needs a major threat to justify defence spending though, so I'd suggest Russia and Japan / China. The former would probably be making inroads in China and the Pacific, whilst the latter is a country with a population over 1 billion and a potentially hostile ideology, both of which would lend themselves to a Anglo-American alliance. I dont think Britain can go it alone, so OTL's Anglo-American closeness, but on a much more equal footing due to the UKs power, seems the way to go. I'd agree that independence for most of the Empire seems the most wise option. the white dominions plus Malaya would have a population of some 230 million, most of whom would be as rich as somewhere like the US, more if they keep any profitable bits of Africa. India would ideally be a close ally, especially when they start shopping for upgraded ships and other tech
 

Some Bloke

Althought the timeline has not been been completed the current version of France Fights on has quite a promising picture for Post War Britain. Several technologies that were pusued but cancelled are followed through with, giving Britain an early lead in Jet engines and electronics. Britain is also better of than OTL financially and industrially (the latter due to industry being modernised duding the war instead of run into the ground).

The UK never sold its American holdings for other reasons is capable of competing with the US economically rather than being obviously a second tier power by 1943 onwards.

This gives Britain more money to play with.

The most obvious military post war Beneficiary ITTL is the Navy, as all 4 Maltas are built (2 during and two after the war, the Audacious class is cancelled), Vanguard and 2 of the Lion class are built in time to see some action plus the planned but never built 3x3 9.2" cruisers also see service.

All these factors, comined with greater cooperation with the commonwealth, give an impression of a very powerful Britain and British military ITTL, with potential for further growth with a closer knit commonwealth.
 

KillerT

agreed -I'll start a serious one at some point-just thought could get all the oddball and unrealistic stuff in one place-like here.
 

ThatGuyOverThere

Well, heres a few ideas, maybe unlikely, but possible with a 1901 POD-

-Maltas are built, and either their replacements or the generation after that are xbox hueg and nuclear powered
-Lion class are built, replaced in 70s by say 6/8 SSGNs. (Big nuclear battleships with 100s of VLS launchers and 16/18" guns would be nice but not that practical) Would this be possible considering technology at the time?
-A united Commonwealth develops, and purchases in vast quantities, the Arrow, TSR2 and all the other great projects killed by politics
-Export markets for defence products are found in India (I think India has to go independent to avodi an Indian Commonwealth), the largely British aligned Middle East, West Germany, British allies in South America, European allies etc.
-Britain develops its own stealth bombers and 5th generation stealth fighters, hopefully with less cost over-runs than the B2 and F22
If British industry is reformed enough, the Commonwealth would probably have the worlds 2nd biggest GDP after the US, and could afford a military at least equal to the US in quality and 2/3rds the size quantity wise. Obviously, you'd need changes to get rid of public apathy for the forces
 
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Riain

I'd have a WW1 where the Army fights it like a seige from 1915 so doesn't waste so much men and materiel but the RN gets smashed in Jutland. This would do much to save the economy but force the RN to become a very mean fighting force.
 
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