UK/RAF from 1965 and on: future is 1-engined, we carry on by ourselves where possible

An interesting possibility might have been either BAC or Hawker Siddeley building the Mirage III under licence for the RAF. The UK would have had some bragging rights over France as the Fairey Delta was tested at the Cazaux site and Dassault used data from the Delta to develop the Mirage III. A favourable deal could have been negotiated.

The most likely power plant would have been the Rolls-Royce Avon or Spey. I understand that Australia used the Avon in the Mirages they built for the RAAF under licence.
FWIW
  • There was a proposal for a Spey powered Mirage III IOTL. It was called the Mirage IIIK.
  • One Mirage III was fitted with an Avon and it first flew in that from on 13th February 1961. It was evaluated by the RAAF who decided that the improvement in performance wasn't worth the increase in cost. So the 116 Mirages built for the RAAF had Atar engines. That's according to "Modern Combat Aircraft 23 Mirage" by Paul Jackson.
 
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Seems like it gains the shape of a TL - my 1st here :)
I'm okay with people discussing, and suggesting, especially how to out-smart Dassault...



Su-15 kinda goes again the main premise of the thread: keep it 1-engined where possible, UK-only or UK-led, designed within a few years rather than within a decade or more, simple (but not too simple), affordable, suitable for export. Of course, it needs to be able to meet the RAF's requirements.
Sorry my bad
Can the 2 soviet engines be replaced by one British one ?
get IFR to extend range

isn’t the requirement of RAF for bomber interceptor similar to that of PVO ? Esp given the northern seas and GIUK that needs to be patrolled
 
Sorry my bad
Can the 2 soviet engines be replaced by one British one ?
get IFR to extend range

isn’t the requirement of RAF for bomber interceptor similar to that of PVO ? Esp given the northern seas and GIUK that needs to be patrolled
That would require the Gyron to enter service - Spey doesn’t have enough oomph and Olympus is massive.
 
Sorry my bad
Can the 2 soviet engines be replaced by one British one ?
get IFR to extend range

One Bristol Olympus is almost 700 kg heavier than two R-13 engines, so that's a problem. Extra 10 kN will not solve this. The wing is a bit too small as-is, with Olympus it will be an even greater problem, especially since British were hell bent to reduce the required runaways from late 1950s on, not to make them longer.
RR Avon is too small to convert the Su-15 into an 1-engined British fighter.
RR Spey - 20500 lb vs. 28600-32000 lb total thrust, will the savings of 5-10% (?? -> engine + structure+ fuel?) be enough when thrust is cut by 30-35%? Probably not.

Olympus for the 1-engined British MiG-25, Spey for the MiG-23 and Su-7/17/22, Avon for the MiG-21? Two Avons will be needed for the British Su-15, but British already have the Ligtning in service, with the great F-4 being introduced some years later.

isn’t the requirement of RAF for bomber interceptor similar to that of PVO ? Esp given the northern seas and GIUK that needs to be patrolled

EE Lightning predates starting date of this thread.
 
Look at other BAC 584 or 585, both VG. The type 589 was two engines, approx TSR2 size.
Away from my references so can't confirm HSA equivalents other than the P.1179, essentially a Harrier development, and the HSA (Brough) P.142, again twin Spey and in essence the British Phantom.
 
And forget Gyron. It was cancelled around 1957, as everything that might have used it was axed. The closest to use it was the P.1121, but the engine was prone to surging and any production aircraft would have had Olympus (021R) or possibly RR Conway.

Drawings for a navalised P.1 121 were drawn up, with some USN interest. TBH, it's a big aircraft for a carrier.
 
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One Mirage III was fitted with an Avon and it first flew in that from on 13th February 1961. It was evaluated by the RAAF who decided that the improvement in performance wasn't worth the increase in cost. So the 116 Mirages built for the RAAF had Atar engines. That's according to "Modern Combat Aircraft 23

Rolls Royce Australia found out and pressured the government who pressured the RAAF team in France. But the atar remained.

In the early 60s the British pound was valued at USD 2.80 and Australian pound USD 2.24. The French were costing the Avon in British pounds but realised their mistake and recalculated which jacked up the price significantly.
 
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Look at other BAC 584 or 585, both VG. The type 589 was two engines, approx TSR2 size.
Away from my references so can't confirm HSA equivalents other than the P.1179, essentially a Harrier development, and the HSA (Brough) P.142, again twin Spey and in essence the British Phantom.

Two-engined designs are disqualified per the premise of the thread.
VG is not something British have experience with in the mid-1960s, but they do have the experience in BLC on two separate aircraft, so that is used to help out for taking off and, when needed, landing.
 
Falco
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Things were not well in the procurement process of the Luftwaffe and AMI by early 1971. 1st Belgium left, then Canada, now the Dutch. That meant the two remaining countries will need just the half of the intended quantity vs. the forecast made just 3 years earlier, with expected result: price per each A/C will skyrocket in order to cover both for development and production of engine, airframe and electronics.

Now it was time for Italy to walk away and to ponder what to do next.

Option of making more F-104s to do the ground attack job was discarded shortly, the aircraft's safety record and lack of range when bomb-laden were the obvious reasons. Souped-up trainers were found being even less favorable and were judged as incapable of surviving a high-threat environment, as well as of dubious utility in bad weather and during the night, while also not rangy enough.
Buying abroad - the discarded options: A-6 and A-7 due to being subsonic, and F-4 as too expensive. That left the F-105, Jaguar, Merlin and Rapier. After further deliberations continued in 1972, Jaguar was dismissed due to the lack of modern electronics, while the F-105 was considered a too old-tech. By late 1972, Italians have decided on the Merlin ( named Falco by the Italians ) just like the Dutch. Main outward difference was that Falco was a 2-seater only. The licence deal was that Italians produce the fuselage and engine, while the British will manufacture the wings and empenage. Attack and navigational electronics was based on the set-up used on Buccaneer, since the most likely area of operation will be the Alps, Balkans (and hopefully not the Appenies) and maritime strike. In order to speed up the delivery, British will manufacture sets for initial 12 aircraft plus 30 engine engines, as well as delivery of enough parts for the engine to Fiat so the production there is up and running without delay. The container for M61A cannon is to be developed by Italians for the Falco.
Total of 120 aircraft is ordered, with 1st Italian Falco flying already in 15th October 1973. Nobody gave much of concern that all parts for it were made in UK - after all, it was assembled and flew in Italy!

While people in the UK government were very much satisfied with the current business deals (that were also driving the price per aircraft for them, too), they were questioning some things among themselves, namely how the French were not playing the ball sometimes. Like selling their Mirages to anyone - even to the countries UK refused to sell, like the second order of Buccaneers to South Africa. Comments of the supposed unsuitability and supposed too high price of the navalized Jaguar seemed like the French (or it was Dassault perhaps? they have aquired Breguet in 1971) were trying to remove the joint project from the picture in order to have an all-French aircraft bought instead.
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Drawings for a navalised P.1 121 were drawn up, with some USN interest. TBH, it's a big aircraft for a carrier.
USN did live with Skywarriors off of converted Essex class, so is that.

And this
FZS57cBXoAAQmHx

Note the Vigilante and Phantoms
 
USN did live with Skywarriors off of converted Essex class, so is that.

And this
FZS57cBXoAAQmHx

Note the Vigilante and Phantoms

How did they get there, because the Vigi makes me suspicious?

We had a very long thread about keeping the Essex in service where it was shown the Phantom could really only operate from an Essex in an emergency, and the Vigi was bigger again although it's not the size but the energy imparted to the deck that matters.
 
How did they get there, because the Vigi makes me suspicious?

We had a very long thread about keeping the Essex in service where it was shown the Phantom could really only operate from an Essex in an emergency, and the Vigi was bigger again although it's not the size but the energy imparted to the deck that matters.
Probably an emergency landing. As for the Skywarrior, the subsonic A-3 is a good deal more forgiving and the Essexes used them mostly as tankers.
 
Probably an emergency landing. As for the Skywarrior, the subsonic A-3 is a good deal more forgiving and the Essexes used them mostly as tankers.

The Whale hit the deck at 87 knots and had an empty weight of 39,400lbs, for a kinetic energy of 7569. In contrast the F8E hit the deck at 141 knots and had an empty weight of 18,800lbs for a kinetic energy of 19881.

Assuming my mathematics is right, i can't count for shit.
 
How did they get there, because the Vigi makes me suspicious?
No solid answers, but yeah, neither F-4 or RA-5 were officially operated from the rebuilt/upgrade Essex classes

To me, looks like this was a 1969-1970 era shot of Bonnie Dick either going or returning somewhere between San Diego and Yankee Station on her last two deployments before retirement

Have heard of both types landing under Bingo Fuel conditions, but no word on taking off.

Bu that pic does a great job at showing scale
EDIT and this

60173063_10157135635368618_4783823351258808320_n.jpg

Note aircraft on elevator on Hancock, for one way of aircraft transfer .
Also curious what was going on with the CVE aft
 
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Probably doing some ferrying, on deployment voyages. I've seen pictures of hmas Melbourne with wrapped usmc helicopters on deck being ferried from CONUS to Hawaii while picking up aircraft for the RAN.
 
Rapier G, Rapier F.1
Germany was left with nobody to dance with wrt. the new combat aircraft now that Italy has left. They too were left to try and shop around, and were presented with the same choice as Italians short time ago. With more money to spend and with problems with F-104G, they decided that British full-spec Rapier is their best bet. Named Rapier G (for obvious reasons), it was an equivalent of the Rapier GR1 as produced for the RAF, with main difference of using the RB.162-62A engine version, that was with increased thrust. It was making 14800 lb dry, 24300 lb in afterburner, and 26000 lb with water injection; same engine will go in the RAF's Rapier GR2. Engine will be made by MTU, with RR as a sub-contractor. UK will supply wing sets for the German Rapier, as well as the offensive electronics.
Back in the UK, a need to counter the ever-increasing Soviet air armada and experiences from the Vietnam war were requiring a full-blown all-weather fighter that has a look-down shoot-down radar, missiles that go with it, with recomendation that canon is also incorporated. Thus the Rapier F.1 was born - can be had in a timely manner, performance required is there, crew of two will much ease the pilot's workload, maintenance will be just an extension from what was already in place for the Rapier GR.1 and .2.
Choice of missiles was the easy part - Skyflash will do, with AIM-9J for short ranges. Cannon pack with the 30mm Aden will use the bomb bay free volume, and will also feature the missile launchers at it's sides, roughly at 7 and 5 o'clock postions relative to the fuselage. Radar was the hard part. To sped up the design process, a Rapier GR.1 was outfitted with the radar taken from the Lightning, with the radar operator at the back seat, the aft half of the cockpit slightly modified for this purpose. Sidewinders worked well in this configuration, but it will take some time for a Skyflash-compatible LD/SDradar to be made, as well as to the gun pod/missile launcher to be made. Range of the Ligtning's radar was also found as to short vs. requirements.
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Business good and bad New
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In the UK, the business was good with the Rapier and Merlin, as well as the Harrier and with the design of the new jet trainer*. British aero industry commercial success being pretty much on track like they were with Meteors, Vampires, Lightnings, Hunters and Canberras not a long time ago. One thing was still a topic with the people in HMG that dealt with procurement and possible exports of their aircraft, namely the French stance. Not just with government that was allowing their Mirages to be sold to the countries the UK will not, but also the rumors of how Jaguar M was is supposedly not fit for the task, and Dassault conveniently offering the warmed-up Etandard to fill the niche.
"Seems like the engine-out situation on an 1-engined Etandard is just fine" was one of cynical comments. Another comment was "French much more like their attacker that lifts 2 tons of bomb - if they get the upgraded Etandard right - than the joint aircraft that lifts double as much". Dassault was much more interested in selling their Mirage F1 and older Mirages than the Jaguar abroad - another thing that was noted by HMG. Any Atar engine sold abroad equals two Adours not sold, meaning the loss of sale of one Adour for the British half of the joint venture - not funny at all, not for RR nor for the UK jobs and budget.
French also get all the money for spare parts other countries will be buying.

All of that pointed out that any future co-operation with French in design and development of combat aircraft, as well as exporting them will be much more of a trouble than it will be worth. British government, together with the industry set out to find the new buyers for their supersonics and other military aircraft in Europe, South America and Asia.
In the meantime, experiments with radar set for the Rapier F.1 were underway, with lot of problems that needed to be resolved until a reliable and capable LD/SD radar is there for production and installation.

* will be the topic of a few future updates
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