UK offer to Ireland 1940

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

Aircraft of the Irish Air Corps, 1939-1945

No. 5 de Havilland DH.98 Mosquito / Spioróg ('Sparrowhawk')

The Sparrowhawks were not the most numerous aircraft of the Air Corps - fewer than forty spread across two squadrons - but they performed more roles than any other. The de Havilland DH.98 Mosquito, the famed 'wooden wonder' was a true multi-purpose aeroplane and worked as a night fighter (it's original intended use by the Air Corps), reconnaissance aircraft, day fighter and light bomber.

First arriving in late 1942 the Spiorógs quickly gained a positive reputation among Irish aircrews; Captain Peter O'Hare (1920 - 2002) the second highest scoring Irish ace of the war earned all but three of his fifteen victories in a Spioróg. Fast, reliable and capable the planes outshone many of the other aeroplanes in Irish service. Initially kept at home to protect Dublin and Cork from night time bombing raids by the Luftwaffe by the middle of 1943 they found themselves repurposed with the planes of 203 Squadron sent to support the IEF during the Allied invasion of Sicily*. A bombing raid by nine Spiorógs that August badly damaged the Italian cruiser Luigi di Savoia Duca degli Abruzzi while she was at port and generally regarded as the first major independent strike by the Irish Air Corps in the war.

Admired as they were few of the aircraft survived the war in flying condition. Besides losses in action the strain of so much use wore heavily on them and by early 1944 they were relegated back to the home front. Still, except for the immortal Hurricaine / Cruidín no aeroplane in Irish service enjoyed quite such a romantic reputation.

* Besides 203 Squadron the Air Corps also dispatched three fighter squadrons to the Sicilian and (eventually) Italian campaigns.

 

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

Anyone any other suggestions for aircraft?

@sparky42 do you want to write up ships the expanded Naval Service? Iirc you know a fair bit about that anyway.

 

[ShortsBelfast]

Anyone any other suggestions for aircraft?

@sparky42 do you want to write up ships the expanded Naval Service? Iirc you know a fair bit about that anyway.

There's bound to have been a few transport planes . C-46 or C-47 perhaps?

 

[sparky42]

Anyone any other suggestions for aircraft?

@sparky42 do you want to write up ships the expanded Naval Service? Iirc you know a fair bit about that anyway.

Might be tomorrow or Sunday due to a few odd jobs for the family (why is it they always wait for the good weekend to just have “one small thing”…) but sure I’ll take a crack at it.

 

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

Aircraft of the Irish Air Corps, 1939-1945

No. 6 Avro Anson / Crosán ('Razorbill')

Of all the aeroplanes in the pre-war Irish Air Corps only the multipurpose Avro Ansons would remain in service for the entire conflict. In September 1940 as war loomed the Air Corps had six surviving Ansons nominally operational at Baldonnel but effectively grounded due to limited spare parts. Re-designated the Crosán ('Razorbill') in the rapid expansion plan the Air Corps underwent in the Winter of 1940/41 these veterans were rapidly reinforced by fresh aeroplanes and between 1940 and 1945 a total of thirty nine Crosáns would fly under Irish colours.

The Anson / Crosán was not an especially modern or powerful aeroplane and given it's intended purpose (at least in Ireland) of being a marine patrol aircraft could not even boast a great range. It's armament was too weak to stand up against modern Axis fighters. However it did have one priceless advantage; the Air Corps already knew how to fly and maintain the machines. Even before the beginning of 1941 a full squadron of the planes resumed watch over the West Coast and the Celtic Sea. In time the Broighealls (Short Sutherland) flying boats would become the primary marine patrol aeroplane but the land based Crosáns continued in use, as well as operating as light transports and on occasion light bombers - at least two U-boats are recorded as being prey to the Razorbills.

After the war a dozen Crosáns were transferred to Aer Lingus and served as passenger planes into the mid-Fifties.

---

OOC: The Ansons are the second plane to have actually served with the Air Corps to appear here, though again they have a much larger role in this time line!

 

[RuneGloves]

Yes but Northern Ireland was/is an increasingly undesirable semi-independent appendage of Great Britain. Not part of the UK in the same way England, Scotland and Wales are or were then. And was actually set up on the assumption it would eventually rejoin the rest of Ireland as a Loyal Dominion. So not treasonous if you regard it as a Crown possession to be reorganised as Westminster decreed.

We all agree that the proposal is unworkable. Treasonous of course is in the eye of the beholder. And The Crown in Parliament has Collectively all the powers of a 17th century Absolute Monarch.

Under the assumption Ireland was as integral as Canada or Australia, than yeah, a transfer of territory, with consent, like Newfoundland did, wouldn't be out of the ordinary.

However, within the situation of a war having been fought between GB & Ireland, and it's only really aligned on paper, especially with intense feelings of opposition to territorial exchange, I would say that's treason, Monarchs can commit treason too, so collective powers does not absolve the state of such crimes.

 

[Wendell]

That's gonna be awkward reverting to the old union flag after the one with Ireland represented flew during the war. But hey, now Ireland might end up a founding member of NATO.

 

[sparky42]

That's gonna be awkward reverting to the old union flag after the one with Ireland represented flew during the war. But hey, now Ireland might end up a founding member of NATO.

Given that Dev was in talks with the US in OTL and the sticking point was as you'd guess NI, it's highly likely that Ireland would be part of NATO and remain in the Commonwealth post WW2 I would imagine.

 

[Quintuplicate]

It is very hard to see what Ireland actually gets out of this. The British get ports, airfields, thousands of additional soldiers and a favourable press in Irish America for the low price of a few squadrons of second line aeroplanes. Ireland gets... well, a chance to be bombed and an unenforceable gesture of goodwill from London.

The British declaration will, rightly, be seen in Dublin as essentially toothless and not really much more of advance on the Council of Ireland that existed in shadowy form in 1920. At worst Dev might suspect it to be Churchillian theatrics to undermine his government in favour of a theoretically more pro-British Fine Gael.

Did Scots-Irish Americans have any sympathy for unionism?

 

[MFOM]

Cork might gain the most in this TL.

 

[RuneGloves]

Did Scots-Irish Americans have any sympathy for unionism?

Aside from some Confederate generals larping, Scots-Irish were assimilated, they didn't favour foreign lands. They were American, and had other strong local identities like Appalachian or Southerner.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

Aside from some Confederate generals larping, Scots-Irish were assimilated, they didn't favour foreign lands. They were American, and had other strong local identities like Appalachian or Southerner.

Many seemed to be proud of their Scottish and Scots-Irish (Northern Ireland?) Heritage. But that didn't transfer into sympathy for the UK or Unionism. Rather the reverse given folk memories of "The Clearances" and other reasons for emigration to the US.

ps Does anyone in the US ever think of themselves as British-American or Anglo-American? Probably every predominantly Caucasian American would have at least some ancestors who migrated from England before the 20th century*. But, apart from nostalgic trips to the home villages if known, does this influence their self identification?

* leaving aside the many thousands of descendants of war brides!

 

[RuneGloves]

Many seemed to be proud of their Scottish and Scots-Irish (Northern Ireland?) Heritage. But that didn't transfer into sympathy for the UK or Unionism. Rather the reverse given folk memories of "The Clearances" and other reasons for emigration to the US.

I don't think the Scots-Irish had any bad memories of the UK, only really from an American point of view, as in 1776 or 1812, or PNW border issues. Most Scottish-Americans would have been Scottish Lowlanders.
So for the most part they didn't hold ancient gripes from the motherland, moreso, just Americanisms.

ps Does anyone in the US ever think of themselves as British-American or Anglo-American? Probably every predominantly Caucasian American would have at least some ancestors who migrated from England before the 20th century*. But, apart from nostalgic trips to the home villages if known, does this influence their self identification?

* leaving aside the many thousands of descendants of war brides!

Prior to 1980, Anglo identity was the default in the US, in the same way Russian was in the USSR, or Han is in the PRC.
So yeah, Americans thought of themselves as Anglo-Americans, but distanced from Britain.

Although with enough anglocentrism for this https://www.theatlantic.com/magazin...ted-states-and-the-anglo-saxon-future/525690/

we reached the solution in the midst of difficulties greater than any which now confront the Anglo-Saxon federationist.

So unionism between US & Imperial Federation was a talking point at the turn of the century.

Just to futher this point, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Anglocentrism

The practice of viewing the world from English or Anglo-American perspective

Since about 1980, the identification of Anglo-Americans has hit bedrock, they're split between "ethnic American" & English, Scottish & Scots-irish. This has led to a massive undercount, that went from 75 million to about 23 million and has broken most demographic maps.

 

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

There's bound to have been a few transport planes . C-46 or C-47 perhaps?

I went with the Anson initially since there actually were a few in Irish service pre-1940. I do think a few more advanced and powerful transports would have ended up in Irish hands though and I might do a write up.

(Between the Ansons and the Sutherlands Post-war Aer Lingus is certainly in a better position in this timeline!)

Might be tomorrow or Sunday due to a few odd jobs for the family (why is it they always wait for the good weekend to just have “one small thing”…) but sure I’ll take a crack at it.

Cool.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Just got caught up with these @Ditzy Vixen (RossN) - LOVE THEM!

As to suggestions…hmmmm…

I could see us getting a few Swordfish from Britain. Good for anti-submarine patrols and probably reasonably-priced.

 

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

Just got caught up with these @Ditzy Vixen (RossN) - LOVE THEM!

Thanks!

I've been trying to strike a balance between planes that I think would just have made sense and those I personally just like, like the Mosquito (though I think it isn't so implausible.) Sometimes as with the Hurricane I get both!

Extremely advanced, expensive, experimental aircraft I decided against (so no Gloster Meteors before the end of the war) and likewise those that would require a colossal support crew or would be extremely incompatible with the government view probably aren't going to appear (no ultra heavy strategic bombers like the B-29's!)

As to suggestions…hmmmm…

I could see us getting a few Swordfish from Britain. Good for anti-submarine patrols and probably reasonably-priced.

Ah there is a cool idea!

We did historically have Gladiators during the Emergency but I think in this timeline they'd have rapidly been phased out by Hurricaines / Cruidíns and Warhawks / Rúcachs so I probably won't give them a full write up.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Thanks!

No worries!

I've been trying to strike a balance between planes that I think would just have made sense and those I personally just like, like the Mosquito (though I think it isn't so implausible.) Sometimes as with the Hurricane I get both!

Extremely advanced, expensive, experimental aircraft I decided against (so no Gloster Meteors before the end of the war) and likewise those that would require a colossal support crew or would be extremely incompatible with the government view probably aren't going to appear (no ultra heavy strategic bombers like the B-29's!)

No, you’ve done a good job. They’re all proven designs you’re using, and the more expensive ones you make a point of saying weren’t so common. They do make sense.

And yeah, heavy bombers wouldn’t make any sense. With the manpower available, the AC’s main roles would be aerospace defence and maritime patrol, along with close air support once the fighting moves to the Continent.

Ah there is a cool idea!

Glad you approve

We did historically have Gladiators during the Emergency but I think in this timeline they'd have rapidly been phased out by Hurricaines / Cruidíns and Warhawks / Rúcachs so I probably won't give them a full write up.

That makes sense.

Nice…

 

[sparky42]

Thanks!

I've been trying to strike a balance between planes that I think would just have made sense and those I personally just like, like the Mosquito (though I think it isn't so implausible.) Sometimes as with the Hurricane I get both!

Extremely advanced, expensive, experimental aircraft I decided against (so no Gloster Meteors before the end of the war) and likewise those that would require a colossal support crew or would be extremely incompatible with the government view probably aren't going to appear (no ultra heavy strategic bombers like the B-29's!)



Ah there is a cool idea!

We did historically have Gladiators during the Emergency but I think in this timeline they'd have rapidly been phased out by Hurricaines / Cruidíns and Warhawks / Rúcachs so I probably won't give them a full write up.

That must be a 1939/1940 photo before we changed the roundel to include the Orange, never seen it before.

 

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

Extract from Bremen to Baldonnel, a biography of Brigadier General James Fitzmaurice (O'Brien Press, 1972)

​

"...Even before the war Commandant James Fitzmaurice could reasonably claim to be Ireland's greatest aviator, a veteran of both the RAF and the infant Air Service of the Irish Free State and most famously a member of the Bremen crew who made the first East-West crossing of the Atlantic in 1928.

1939 saw Fitzmaurice living primarily in London and running a club for veteran pilots. He was however aware of the shift in political and public opinion in Ireland and in August 1940 as rumours of an imminent Irish declaration of war on Germany swirled he offered his services to the Government in Dublin. For the tiny and woefully underequipped Irish Air Corps this decision proved a godsend. Fitzmaurice was quickly reappointed to his old rank and though technically subordinate to Col Patrick Anthony Mulcahy who commanded the Air Corps at the outbreak of war Fitzmaurice almost overnight became the face of the service.

Fitzmaurice was an experienced and intelligent pilot in his own right but he brought something more significant; international fame and the respect of other pilots. At a time when what was needed even more desperately than aeroplanes were the men to fly them Fitzmaurice was worth his weight in gold. In December 1940 with the active connivance of the Roosevelt administration DeValera sent Commandant Fitzmaurice on a goodwill tour of the United States, drawing enthusiastic crowds in Boston, Philadelphia, New York City and Chicago. The reason was as transparent as it was successful. The Irish aviator was in America looking bring back pilots - lots of them.

Inspired by the Lafayette Escadrille of the First World War the hope in Dublin had been to recruit Irish-American volunteer pilots to bolster the thin ranks of the Air Corps until more Irish pilots could be trained. In the event the tour exceeded even the most optimistic hopes of the Irish Government as dozens of Irish-American aviators - retired military pilots, barnstormers, civilian pilots flocked to volunteer to fly under Irish colours. During the Battle of Ireland that raged from late 1940 through May 1941 at least a quarter of 'Irish' air crew had been born or at least lived in the United States and the role of volunteers would prove the basis of three Hollywood movies of varying quality during the war.

As the war went on and the number of trained pilots in Ireland grew the influx of pilots from the Atlantic shank and trickled off altogether after Pearl Harbour. James Fitzmaurice of course would have much more to do during and after the war. Still even with all allowance for romance and exaggeration the American accented pilots from the Spring of 1941 have etched a permanent place in the memory of both Ireland and America..."

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Decided to give this a go...

Foreground: Vickers-Armstrong Light Tank in Irish service (dubbed the Ferdia by Irish operators) during the North African campaign.
​

As an interwar design, with a chassis that had been regularly manufactured for export purposes, the various marks of the Light Tank were considered ideal for provision to Ireland, not least given that Britain was herself planning to phase them out of active service. From the Irish government perspective too, the vehicles were relatively inexpensive, light, non-crew-intensive, and made a good 'introductory' vehicle for an Army that had hitherto lacked great experience with tanks.

However, what was a sound theory ultimately proved problematic during actual war. Outclassed badly by German vehicles, to many the Ferdia - and the Setanta, the name given to the Cruiser Mk 1 - came to epitomise the many and manifold issues with the North African campaign from an Irish perspective.* Well-known Garda James Brannigan, a tanker during the war, would famously claim to have seen an anti-tank round from a Panzer IV go straight through a Ferdia and strike a Universal Carrier behind it.

By 1943, the Irish Army would begin to receive its first Shermans via Lend-Lease, which it would continue to operate well into the post-war period...

*Other issues including, famously, the initial deployment of forces in 'bull's wool' uniforms to the desert theatre, and less than flattering opinions of British officers (though the latter would be tempered somewhat following greater success, given the Irish origins of some of the senior officer corps)..

- From Osprey Publishing, The Irish Army 1940-1945.