UK offer to Ireland 1940

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

Aircraft of the Irish Air Corps, 1939-1945

No. 3 The Hawker Hurricane / Cruidín ('Kingfisher')

The British public might credit the Spitfire as their saviours during the Battle of Britain but the Irish know the Kingfishers won the Battle of Ireland.

RAF Hurricanes saw action over Irish airspace within the first week of the war but it was the formation of the first Irish squadron of Cruidíns ('Kingfishers') in December 1940 that is often cited as the moment the modern Irish Air Corps was born. Throughout 1941 a steady stream of Hurricanes arrived in Ireland to equip the fledgling Irish squadrons. Many were veterans of the Battle of Britain and saw a rapid return to action against the heavy German raids that struck Ireland in the first half of the war. At peak strength in April 1942 six squadrons flew the Cruidín and over half of all Irish Air Corps fighters flown during the war was some variant of the Hurricaine.

The Cruidín was a fine aeroplane, beloved by its pilots. It was famously resilient and a proven design. It was not however without its flaws. By 1941 when Irish pilots were winning the undying love of the public with their defence of Dublin and Belfast the Hurricane was already an aging design and tweaking it further would only go so far. Worse the individual aircraft themselves were aging, cheaply purchased from RAF stock (infamously 'new' factory fresh Hurricanes would not form a plurality of the Irish Air Corps until early 1943.) Many years after the war revisionist historians would criticise the Government for cynically using the popular affection for the Cruidín to avoid buying more modern (and expensive) aeroplanes.

Cruidíns served in every theatre the Irish Defence Forces did and saw both the highest numbers of losses and the highest number of kills in action. Over a hundred and fifty were used in Irish service, making it the most common plane in Irish colours.

---

OOC: The first of these aircraft to actually serve with the Air Corps during the war - though obviously in far fewer numbers in OTL than in this timeline.

 

[ShortsBelfast]

It's a given that Dev was a shite Military Commander (lets not forget it was Spring 1939 that he and the Cabinet took a moment and figured out there were slight "tensions" in Europe... But I think ending Partition (and of course being the person who "did it") would have balanced his issues with bringing in the NI population, I mean of all the Southern Parties FF were the ones with the biggest party structures and base at this point and might have stood to gain at least some of the Nationalists for ending Partition.

As to being pushed aside... It's an open question? The risk of heavy bombing damage and any military reversals may hit hm, but finding a "competent war leader" might be the larger question? Lemass?

As has been discussed, I would suspect that an actual end to Partition wasn't a deliverable. Increasing the size of the national territory was the best he could have realistically hoped for. Probably Lemass yes, but going to war would have necessitated an all party coalition in Ireland as in the UK, so probably multiple risks of an Attlee to his Churchill as much as a Churchill to his Chamberlain.

 

[sparky42]

Aircraft of the Irish Air Corps, 1939-1945

No. 3 The Hawker Hurricane / Cruidín ('Kingfisher')

The British public might credit the Spitfire as their saviours during the Battle of Britain but the Irish know the Kingfishers won the Battle of Ireland.

RAF Hurricanes saw action over Irish airspace within the first week of the war but it was the formation of the first Irish squadron of Cruidíns ('Kingfishers') in December 1940 that is often cited as the moment the modern Irish Air Corps was born. Throughout 1941 a steady stream of Hurricanes arrived in Ireland to equip the fledgling Irish squadrons. Many were veterans of the Battle of Britain and saw a rapid return to action against the heavy German raids that struck Ireland in the first half of the war. At peak strength in April 1942 six squadrons flew the Cruidín and over half of all Irish Air Corps fighters flown during the war was some variant of the Hurricaine.

The Cruidín was a fine aeroplane, beloved by its pilots. It was famously resilient and a proven design. It was not however without its flaws. By 1941 when Irish pilots were winning the undying love of the public with their defence of Dublin and Belfast the Hurricane was already an aging design and tweaking it further would only go so far. Worse the individual aircraft themselves were aging, cheaply purchased from RAF stock (infamously 'new' factory fresh Hurricanes would not form a plurality of the Irish Air Corps until early 1943.) Many years after the war revisionist historians would criticise the Government for cynically using the popular affection for the Cruidín to avoid buying more modern (and expensive) aeroplanes.

Cruidíns served in every theatre the Irish Defence Forces did and saw both the highest numbers of losses and the highest number of kills in action. Over a hundred and fifty were used in Irish service, making it the most common plane in Irish colours.

---

OOC: The first of these aircraft to actually serve with the Air Corps during the war - though obviously in far fewer numbers in OTL than in this timeline.

And yet the most numerous fighter we've ever had...
Love these btw.

 

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

And yet the most numerous fighter we've ever had...
Love these btw.

Thanks, I'm enjoying writing them!

The Hurricaine is obviously true to life and the Kittyhawk felt like a plausible purchase. The M. 20 also intrigued me as an aeroplane that - thanks to it's simple, quick to build design - could actually have been built here, presumably in the Ford plant in Cork (which iirc was dormant in OTL during the Emergency.)

I'm trying to find a balance between a dramatically expanded Air Corps and a propaganda need for Ireland to act (somewhat) independently in the war vs. a small and relatively poor country. Don't expect us to get Mustangs or Meteors!

 

[sparky42]

Thanks, I'm enjoying writing them!

The Hurricaine is obviously true to life and the Kittyhawk felt like a plausible purchase. The M. 20 also intrigued me as an aeroplane that - thanks to it's simple, quick to build design - could actually have been built here, presumably in the Ford plant in Cork (which iirc was dormant in OTL during the Emergency.)

I'm trying to find a balance between a dramatically expanded Air Corps and a propaganda need for Ireland to act (somewhat) independently in the war vs. a small and relatively poor country. Don't expect us to get Mustangs or Meteors!

I suppose it depends on how much "Lend Lease" might happen, I mean just look at what the New Zealand, they had over 400 Corsair's by the end of the war...
In terms of what industry might be used, I think it wouldn't be the Fords plant, I would have assumed that it would have been repurposed for the Army?

 

[sparky42]

One area I could see perhaps is Ireland instead of joining the bombing campaign (which for his faults I could see Dev having serious issues with) and perhaps instead pushing for MPA's based out of Ireland? Short Sunderlands and Stirlings operating out of the South perhaps?

 

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

I suppose it depends on how much "Lend Lease" might happen, I mean just look at what the New Zealand, they had over 400 Corsair's by the end of the war...
In terms of what industry might be used, I think it wouldn't be the Fords plant, I would have assumed that it would have been repurposed for the Army?

I suspect we'd be somewhat down the ladder but yes I certainly see Lend Lease as a factor!

 

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

One area I could see perhaps is Ireland instead of joining the bombing campaign (which for his faults I could see Dev having serious issues with) and perhaps instead pushing for MPA's based out of Ireland? Short Sunderlands and Stirlings operating out of the South perhaps?

That's plausible if not terribly fun (MPA are pretty unsightly looking aircraft!)

 

[sparky42]

I suspect we'd be somewhat down the ladder but yes I certainly see Lend Lease as a factor!

It might depend on for what, while I could see limits on fighters, with Ireland in the war, the operational areas for Coastal Command would be increased, or handed off to the AC if they had the Airplanes. We had a couple of Anson's in service at the start of the war as did RAF CC though they didn't rate them well. Maybe an AC without Bomber Command pushing for everything might be able to weasel some airframes for MPA?

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

I think Dublin can only trust such a deal, after the USA also joins the war and Washington makes sure London honours such a deal. The US pretty much forced their European allies into decolonization. It's not that those nations didn't want to decolonize, but their societies often had a different time-schedule in mind, then their former colonies. The DEI/Indonesia comes to mind. Anyway IMHO I think Washington could have brought some guarantees to convince Dublin, this offer from London was genuine.

Maybe but the problem is that the Unionist dominated Stormont still had an effective veto. "Best efforts to persuade" isn't "will force it onto you".

For that matter, what could the US do if Westminster refused to compel the Unionists to accept reunification? About the only pressure that would be effective is making it an extra condition of granting the UK the USD loan in 1946 (?). And IF the Attlee government said No*, the US would see a bankrupt Britain unable to counter Soviet "expanionism". Or, indeed, one that sees the USSR as less of a threat but a potential ally or at least a friendly neutral. Remember, Attlee's Labour party had won an electoral landslide and was openly Socialist.

Could the US intervene in the intra-Irish War that would follow it forcing Britain to pull its own forces out? No doubt leaving "unnecessary" stocks of weapons, ammunition etc. and mustering out troops with connections to Northern Ireland to use them.

* IF Attlee agreed, how long before his government falls?

 

[ShortsBelfast]

Thanks, I'm enjoying writing them!

The Hurricaine is obviously true to life and the Kittyhawk felt like a plausible purchase. The M. 20 also intrigued me as an aeroplane that - thanks to it's simple, quick to build design - could actually have been built here, presumably in the Ford plant in Cork (which iirc was dormant in OTL during the Emergency.)

I'm trying to find a balance between a dramatically expanded Air Corps and a propaganda need for Ireland to act (somewhat) independently in the war vs. a small and relatively poor country. Don't expect us to get Mustangs or Meteors!

I suppose it depends on how much "Lend Lease" might happen, I mean just look at what the New Zealand, they had over 400 Corsair's by the end of the war...
In terms of what industry might be used, I think it wouldn't be the Fords plant, I would have assumed that it would have been repurposed for the Army?

Miles Aircraft actually relocated to Newtownards OTL (Lord Londonderry was their big sponsor) and still exist there as Bombardier Newtownards factory (previously Shorts, previously Miles). The Skyvan, 330 and 360 are all descendants of the Miles Skytruck to boot.

 

[ShortsBelfast]

Maybe but the problem is that the Unionist dominated Stormont still had an effective veto. "Best efforts to persuade" isn't "will force it onto you".

For that matter, what could the US do if Westminster refused to compel the Unionists to accept reunification? About the only pressure that would be effective is making it an extra condition of granting the UK the USD loan in 1946 (?). And IF the Attlee government said No*, the US would see a bankrupt Britain unable to counter Soviet "expanionism". Or, indeed, one that sees the USSR as less of a threat but a potential ally or at least a friendly neutral. Remember, Attlee's Labour party had won an electoral landslide and was openly Socialist.

Could the US intervene in the intra-Irish War that would follow it forcing Britain to pull its own forces out? No doubt leaving "unnecessary" stocks of weapons, ammunition etc. and mustering out troops with connections to Northern Ireland to use them.

* IF Attlee agreed, how long before his government falls?

At the end of the day, forcing a repartition is probably the best that they can do. Antrim and Down (North and Mid Down at any rate) and East Londonderry are predominantly Protestant in the 1940s to the degree that any Nationalist supporters would be killed or driven out within days and would have to be held down with main force. And Belfast would be Dodge City. Even with US help, that would be a huge ask for the Irish Republic/Free State to cope with.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

At the end of the day, forcing a repartition is probably the best that they can do. Antrim and Down (North and Mid Down at any rate) and East Londonderry are predominantly Protestant in the 1940s to the degree that any Nationalist supporters would be killed or driven out within days and would have to be held down with main force. And Belfast would be Dodge City. Even with US help, that would be a huge ask for the Irish Republic/Free State to cope with.

Precisely

A better outcome would simply be Westminster action on the discrimination against Catholics and efforts to revitalise the Council of Ireland and North-South trade and other links. Plus revisit the Border issue on a local (district rather than County) level. Earlier Sunningdale

But that's still too much for Stormont and too little fir a Dev dominated Ireland.

 

[ShortsBelfast]

Precisely

A better outcome would simply be Westminster action on the discrimination against Catholics and efforts to revitalise the Council of Ireland and North-South trade and other links. Plus revisit the Border issue on a local (district rather than County) level. Earlier Sunningdale

But that's still too much for Stormont and too little fir a Dev dominated Ireland.

Well yes though I suspect that Stormont would have been easily persuaded to hand over South Armagh and South Fermanagh. Slightly more reluctant to hand over Newry and Warrenpoint, Omagh and Strabane but I think ultimately persuadable. (London)derry city would have been the big one. Nationalist majority sure but Derry's Walls are an iconic Unionist symbol.

 

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

Miles Aircraft actually relocated to Newtownards OTL (Lord Londonderry was their big sponsor) and still exist there as Bombardier Newtownards factory (previously Shorts, previously Miles). The Skyvan, 330 and 360 are all descendants of the Miles Skytruck to boot.

That is cool.

My next write up will be the Sunderland actually.

At the end of the day, forcing a repartition is probably the best that they can do. Antrim and Down (North and Mid Down at any rate) and East Londonderry are predominantly Protestant in the 1940s to the degree that any Nationalist supporters would be killed or driven out within days and would have to be held down with main force. And Belfast would be Dodge City. Even with US help, that would be a huge ask for the Irish Republic/Free State to cope with.

On the one hand I agree it is very difficult to see give on this issue and as I've said I don't think London had the willpower, inclination or ability to do much with their 'offer'

Having said that for the purposes of this timeline we are assuming that somehow a workable compromise has been negotiated, and under those circumstances I'm assuming more a beefed up Council of Ireland Dublin-Belfast collaboration overseeing the immediate issues with the hard questions 'parked' during the duration of the war.

 

[ShortsBelfast]

That is cool.

My next write up will be the Sunderland actually.



On the one hand I agree it is very difficult to see give on this issue and as I've said I don't think London had the willpower, inclination or ability to do much with their 'offer'

Having said that for the purposes of this timeline we are assuming that somehow a workable compromise has been negotiated, and under those circumstances I'm assuming more a beefed up Council of Ireland Dublin-Belfast collaboration overseeing the immediate issues with the hard questions 'parked' during the duration of the war.

Agreed, though as I say the Free State would certainly have gained territory and people, the big question is just how much. South Armagh and South Fermanagh are liabilities rather than assets and Strabane and Newry are declining industrial towns and Warrenpoint and Rostrevor are insignificant fishong villages and resorts. Omagh is a bit more prosperous but is just about washing its face.

 

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

Agreed, though as I say the Free State would certainly have gained territory and people, the big question is just how much. South Armagh and South Fermanagh are liabilities rather than assets and Strabane and Newry are declining industrial towns and Warrenpoint and Rostrevor are insignificant fishong villages and resorts. Omagh is a bit more prosperous but is just about washing its face.

I dunno. Again as unlikely as the possibility is it strikes me as being more an attempt to find some sort of unity rather than loping off territory.

I see things more as a Northern Ireland operating as a unified bloc in some sort of long term phased federal system with a lot of guarantees ringfencing Ireland's position in the Commonwealth and copper fastening the constitutional position of the Crown (no doubt to the consternation of hardcore republicans in the South!)

 

[Ditzy Vixen (RossN)]

Aircraft of the Irish Air Corps, 1939-1945

No. 4 The Short S.25 Sunderland / Broigheall ('Cormorant')

The Sunderland has unfairly been called the 'plane that politics built'. It is undeniable that the decision in early 1941 to order the flying boat for the Irish Air Corps was influenced by delicate negotiations between Belfast and Dublin but the Sunderland or Broigheall ('Cormorant') as it was renamed in Irish service proved a fine plane that won the affection of it's crews. It was also the largest aeroplane in Irish military service, a record it would hold for decades to come.

Though they never achieved the glamour of the fighter pilots the crews of marine patrol boats (thirty two Sunderlands / Broighealls and eighteen other flying boats of various makes) were perhaps the most tireless flying under Irish colours and saw much action and several losses during the Battle of the Atlantic. Largely covering the long Western Coast and operating from Cobh the Broighealls were responsible for the sinking or damaging of a dozen u-boats during between 1941 and 1945 and also had encounters with surface raiders and Focke-Wulf Fw 200 Condors.

After the war five Broigheall's ended up converted to civilian use and saw service with Aer Lingus well into the late 1950s. One famously served as a transport for Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip during their first royal visit to Ireland in 1957.

 

[RuneGloves]

How would such a proposal not be considered treasonous? The majority of NI did not support such thing, it's government officals exporting their citizens to another country.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

How would such a proposal not be considered treasonous? The majority of NI did not support such thing, it's government officals exporting their citizens to another country.

Yes but Northern Ireland was/is an increasingly undesirable semi-independent appendage of Great Britain. Not part of the UK in the same way England, Scotland and Wales are or were then. And was actually set up on the assumption it would eventually rejoin the rest of Ireland as a Loyal Dominion. So not treasonous if you regard it as a Crown possession to be reorganised as Westminster decreed.

We all agree that the proposal is unworkable. Treasonous of course is in the eye of the beholder. And The Crown in Parliament has Collectively all the powers of a 17th century Absolute Monarch.