Uber Switzerland

Recently I've got to reading about the history of Switzerland a little bit. This is a subject of which I am traditionally really quite ignorant but its proving to be quite interesting stuff.

So my WI....How could we make Switzerland bigger and better?
Thinking about its formation it was a bunch of cities and surrounding areas banding together to better defend themselves against outsiders.
They allowed the cities to lagely govern themselves and it generally seemed to be a rather good country for the time....So how big could it get?
Of course if it gets too big the full force of every surrounding nation will be upon it but...what if....
 

Thande

Donor
I think it's fair to say that the idea of the Swiss Confederation is contingent on the Alpine terrain resulting in many small isolated city states and natural defences, so you probably have a geographic limitation to how large it could grow. Maybe Switzerland could cover the entire mountain range?
 
I agree with thande that the Swiss have to stay effectivly confined to the Alps and their environs to remain what we would recognize as Switzerland.

One thought: Maybe the Swiss triumph at marignano against the French, and somehow wind up being given control over much of Northern Italy in the peace treaty. Some successful wars with the Austrian Hapsburgs, and You have a decently expanded Switzerland.
 

Susano

Banned
The problem with Switzerland is that it was not a really coherent entity until the Vienna Congress reformed it. And it was badly split in reformed and catholic cantons after the Reformation. So badly, that they saw each other and not outsiders as the main enemy, meaning Swiss cantons would even keep each other from expanding...

Id really say it was the Reformation which screwed any Swiss chances at continued success up...
...hm, kinda like with Germany ;)
 
When Piedmont ceded Haute-Savoie to the French in 1860, much of the population favored union with Switzerland, which wasn't an option on the (rumored to be rigged) plebiscite.

Vorarlberg in Austria has always had close ties to German-speaking Switzerland. It actually speaks a Swiss German dialect - not Austro-Bavarian. After WW1, in 1919, over 80% of the population voted to join Switzerland, but the Austrians, Allies, Swiss Liberals, Swiss French, and Swiss Italians were all against this.

These PODs might be far later than what you were hoping for however. Prior to that the possibilities seem somewhat endless, given the long history of the Swiss. The most likely happening would be the slow agglomeration of territories in Southern Germany though, as it was by far the most historically disunited region bordering Switzerland during this era.
 
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Valdemar II

Banned
If I remember correctly a lot of free cities in Swabia was in alliance with Switzerland, so I think their best chances is that they use some of these to take the territorium between them until Switzerland is spread over most of Swabia together with a alliance with the Swabian Protestants princes* they could get a rather could large territorium, of course the locale princes would have to convert to Zwinglismen/Calvinism instead of Lutheranism, but according to Susano they only embraced Lutheranism instead because of political reasons, from there we have a large Swabian Switzerland, which in its conflict with the Habsburgs could take over the Habsburgs possesions in the area and later spread down into Savoyan Alps.

So we get a Switzerland looking something like this

*they could become associated member

Giantswitzerland.PNG
 
If I remember correctly a lot of free cities in Swabia was in alliance with Switzerland, so I think their best chances is that they use some of these to take the territorium between them until Switzerland is spread over most of Swabia together with a alliance with the Swabian Protestants princes* they could get a rather could large territorium, of course the locale princes would have to convert to Zwinglismen/Calvinism instead of Lutheranism, but according to Susano they only embraced Lutheranism instead because of political reasons, from there we have a large Swabian Switzerland, which in its conflict with the Habsburgs could take over the Habsburgs possesions in the area and later spread down into Savoyan Alps.

So we get a Switzerland looking something like this

*they could become associated member
First off, I love that map. Finally, Uber Switzerland!:D

Second, I would agree with the other posters so far on possible territory and how the Swiss could get it. Switzerland is pretty much confined to the alps, though small parts of southern germany and northern italy are possiblities for expansion. Another possible POD is the Marlburg Colloquy, a meeting between Zwingli and Luther over the possibility of a united protestant church. I guess you could have that actually be a success rather than splitting the anti-catholic movement and Switzerland starts out in the schmaldick league from the start. The reformation starts out larger and does better in the coming wars against the church. As a reward the Swiss could end up being given territory in southern germany as well as maybe taking some territory from the catholic hapsburgs and italians. Granted, the Colloquy succeeding is pretty much ASB but it would be an interesting TL. (I think I got that info right, but central european history in the middle ages is complicated as all hell!:mad:)

Of course, we could always go the Big Tex route and arrange a visit from a certain stranger...;):D
 

Susano

Banned
Marburg. And Schmalkaldic.

Of course, if Switzerlands in the League, and the League wins, Switzerlan dmight just be reabsorbed into the Empire.
 
Marburg. And Schmalkaldic.

Of course, if Switzerlands in the League, and the League wins, Switzerlan dmight just be reabsorbed into the Empire.
When has the Holy Roman Empire ever made such a logical decision?:p Seriously, I said it was ASB, and there's not many other obvious POD's than the ones the earlier posters said. I mean we've already brought up, marignano, the south german cities leage, voralberg, haute-savoie, etc. I couldn't think of anything else.

And I knew I spelled something wrong, I should've checked first before I posted.:eek:
 
Well, just a few days ago a research prompted evidence that between the end of the XIX century and WWI, the Swiss High Command had devised plans for an invasion of northern Italy: main targets were the provinces of Sondrio and Varese, along with Milan. Swiss Head of Staff unsuccesfully tried to forge a first-strike alliance between Berna and Wien against the nearby Kingdom ...
 
Well, just a few days ago a research prompted evidence that between the end of the XIX century and WWI, the Swiss High Command had devised plans for an invasion of northern Italy: main targets were the provinces of Sondrio and Varese, along with Milan. Swiss Head of Staff unsuccesfully tried to forge a first-strike alliance between Berna and Wien against the nearby Kingdom ...

The Swiss also began expansion into Northern Italy in the 16th century. This was halted in 1516 IIRC at the Battle of Marignano.
 
The Swiss also began expansion into Northern Italy in the 16th century. This was halted in 1516 IIRC at the Battle of Marignano.

The Swiss at Marignano were mercenaries in the pay of the duke of Milan. After the defeat, they retreated in good order toward the St. Gottard pass, and stopped at the top of the lake of Como, claiming the Canton Ticino (which had always been a possession of Milan). If they win, they get paid in species, but no land is gained.

I could rather see it more likely if the Swiss are more lucky in their war against Burgundy (was it Charles the Bold who defeated them almost one century earlier?)

An expansion west toward the Framche Comtee or north toward Swabia makes also more sense: the Swiss would expand into German-speaking lands, and this would make everything much more easy (the original cantons were all German speaking; the French cantons joined later, and mostly were taken from the duchy of Savoy)
 
I could rather see it more likely if the Swiss are more lucky in their war against Burgundy (was it Charles the Bold who defeated them almost one century earlier?)

As I recall, the Swiss decisivly (and repeatly) defeated Charles in battle, and eventually killed him at Nancy.

Maybe they pick up more territory during their wars with him?
 
As I recall, the Swiss decisivly (and repeatly) defeated Charles in battle, and eventually killed him at Nancy.

Maybe they pick up more territory during their wars with him?

You're obviously quite right: my bad :eek:
From what I gather, the original Swiss cantons decided not to annex all (or portions) of Burgundy after the third victory at Nancy in 1477 since they feared it would strengthen too much the weight of Berne in the confederacy. Therefore they decided to sell their rights to the Habsburg for 150,000 florins

Maybe this is the POD for an uber-Switzerland: matter of fact, the internal differences will come to the fore also during the next 40 years, from the alliance with the Grisons to the Swabian war and finally the Milan war. If there is less diffidence between the rural cantons and the cities, the confederacy might certainly take advantage of the power vacuum in the HRE and expand both northward and southward. I might even see a possible alliance between the Swiss confederation and the republic of Venice, first to divide the duchy of Milan between themselves and second to control the commercial route from north Italy to the Flandres.
Mind, an early Swiss success might also be their later downfall: if they start expanding they will be confronted by both the Habsburg and the kings of France, and it will be win or die.




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