Uber-Axis Total Victory: Is it possible?

Enji_Daimyo

Banned
I'm sorry, but you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

A total axis victory being possible.

It is very possible, but in the end I still have nasty feeling that no matter how you deal the US it will still be the major issue. Of course Im an American and might be a little biased.

The list I made is a sum of what would be necessary for the Axis to win

A smarter healthier leader of Germany
A lot more competent Nazi officers under better leader
Russia must fall, which means Stalin dead
Japan stopped or delayed from engaging the US (one fight at a time)
Tighter relations with the empire of Japan and other nations in Axis
SS doing a lot more killing of foreign leaders
The only way to deal with Britain is to prevent Churchill from rising


The only problem I see as an outside source of issues is the Major American personalities. They in the end in any scenario would be the ones to cause problems for an uber Axis victory. Whoever said that earlier was right.

Patton, Marshal, Hoover, MacArthur, Pappy O'Dannon, Wild Bill Donavan, Nimitz, King, FDR

All those individuals have to be dead for an Axis total victory. With a part of any combination you have a stalemate with the Axis powers. With the US being free, in a major cold war.

It is the first time I remember someone mentioning the Cash flow of the nations being an issue to maintaining control cu-does to you. Money would an excellent way to deal with some of the issues. If I remember correctly, a few famous US families had major links to nazi germany. I think three went on to the white house.

The financial aspect would be interesting if it got deeper with the US and UK prewar.

That was all why I suggested an earlier POD for Hitler rising to power. Success with the first attempt at seizing power. This way you have time for other thing to occur that would allow the development of what is necessary for an Axis victory.

If my statements are disjointed I apologize.

Reiteration:
Points necessary for massive axis victory
US issue
earlier POD

In closing axis must work as a team, Killing off a lot more enemy leaders and countries. The recommendation is one at a time. The SS and other like organizations must aid in enemy removal via any means.

The sleeping giant must only be woke at the last.
 
Perhaps something could happen if the Great Depression never happened & the isolationists held power in the United States. The sort of victory that would see the United States fully subjugated would still be difficult if not impossible, but the Axis Powers would have fared much better.

If the United States were to turn a fully blind eye to foreign affairs & did not sanction Japan over the Japanese invasion of French Indo-China, it is easy to imagine the United States not getting involved at all, leaving Japan to focus its forces on China & then Russia. No Lend Lease Act would reduce the fighting strength of both the United Kingdom & the Soviet Union.

With that much said the Axis Powers would still have had a difficult fight, but an Axis victory would be much more likely under these circumstances. It would be more likely still with an Axis U.S., but it is hard to see what would cause that to happen.
 
There are hundreds of stories out there of every kind about an alternate WW2 that leaves a Reich-dominated Europe up to the Urals, a massive Japanese Empire in Asia and the Pacific, and an America occupied and/or annexed and/or balkanised by the Krauts and/or Japs. Examples include Man in the High Castle, In the Presence of Mine Enemies, etc.
But whenever a realistic scenario is tryed to work out here, the concessions are huge. Japan is almost always thrown under the bus, Russia is still very much alive behind their Ural or even Brest-Litvosk borders, Germany has no colonial empire and is struggling just as hard as it can to keep the puppet states to its West and the Lebensraum to its East in line, significant amounts of the British Empire/Commonwealth are controlled by a sort of Free British exile government, America is the dominant superpower, etc., etc., etc.
MY question is, how can we realistically achieve the former scenario, and how would it play out from there. Little details can vary (i.e. whether Italy is a Great Power in its own right or just a Germany wannabe, whether India or the Americas are under German or Japanese influence, etc) but the end goal must be, with a POD no earlier than Hitler's election, and with WW2 starting of in an acceptably recognizable way (America CAN remain isolationist if need be) have the world be split between the Nazi German and Imperial Japanese camps by 1975.
Discuss.
Realistically? To invade and conquer the US by 1975? We'd have to handwave away atomic knowledge and instill Drakaverse stupidity in anyone not an Axis member. The US size, distance and relatively large population makes conquest difficult at the best and as long as the two factions are comparable in tech it's nearly impossible. Germany can be the Hyperpower, can defeat the US in a war, but actual boots on the ground is a stretch.

My thoughts on a more "Realistic" scenario:
1940:Hitler doesn't allow Goering to try and crush Dunkirk with air power alone and crushes the stranded army in the field,subsequently,with the situation looking bleak, by year ends Great Britain agrees to Hitler's generous peace terms. (Yes I know this is borderline ASB, I put Realistic in apostrophes for a reason)

1941:On the eve of what he believes will be his greatest triumph Adolf Hitler health deteriorates forcing him to step down from actual control of the country through he is still a figurehead and "spiritual adviser" to the party. (Yes I know again outlandish but considering the man's OTL health issues not nearly as ASB as before.) Due to the power struggle Hitler's departure generates, ultimately leading to a cabal leading Germany, operation Barbarossa is postponed for the immediate future. Finally Japan declares war on the US and Great Britain with Germany,near a mini civil war at home, declaring its neutrality.

1942-1943: Stalin, sensing weakness and finishing the reforms prompted from the winter war, sets out to destroy the radically anti-soviet Nazi Germany. The Anglo-American forces, distracted with Japan, pay little heed as Soviets smash through occupied Poland and drive towards German proper. The British hope both destroy each other while Americans range from complete indifference to slight support towards the Germans who are viewed as lesser evil compared to the Soviets. The war in the Pacific makes heady progress as the allies develop an island hopping campaign which skips them across towards Japan's home islands. There they vainly employ firebombing raids in hopes of breaking Japanese will.

1944:Germany, bolstered by US sold supplies and not hectored by a British navy occupied in the Pacific, stalemates the Soviet Dreadnought and eventually began to push them slowly away. During the same time an invasion of the home island occurs resulting in a high death count for all sides and leading to years of "brushfire" rebellion. FDR loses reelection, his unseemingly fourth term no less, to Thomas E. Dewey by a fraction largely attributed due to the than omni-present death figures growing larger by the day.

1945-1946:Germany continues its advances against the deteriorating Russian Hoard. The legions of veterans backed not only with increasing amounts of US arms, desperate for a market as the Pacific war slowly winded down, but advanced German weapons such as jet fighters, v-2 rockets, and assault rifles. The Soviets, ordered by Stalin to fight for every inch of worker's soil and growing desperate, "leak" information regarding the camps and atrocities being set up by the Germans in former Poland and now Russian territory in hopes of drawing the Allies into the fray. Britain, growing weary and enjoying the show, refuses while the US, retreating back into isolationism, is content to finish up with Japan and let the world be staying strictly neutral in the affair.

1947-1948-German forces take and hold Moscow along with numerous other Soviet cities. Stalin, who vowed never to give up or surrender, suffers a "health" related incident and perishes leaving Molotov free, with consent of the provisional Soviet leadership, to broker a peace deal. Germany, demanding and receiving a large pound of flesh, accepts. It continues to expand and advance its military at a worrisome rate, building larger more powerful tanks, more potent rocket-bombs and begins an expansion of its much neglected navy. Dewey, growing worried, reactivates a military project sidetracked since the end of the Pacific war. A formal defense pact between the US and Great Britain pledging to defend the other if attacked is also signed. In the '48 election Dewey eks out a bare victory trumpting his ending the hostilities in the Pacific and the peace time prosperity he helped ushered in.

1949-1952:The US stuns the world in early 1950 with the detonation of an Atomic bomb. Germany leaders most of all take note as America parades the weapon, as well as continental bomber, as the ultimate defender of liberty. They in turn found solace in their legions of jet fighters, superior to the early clumsy models either the Americans or British had, to protect their skies and their ever more powerful rocket-bombs to bomb with impunity regardless of the defenders air power. The knowledge of what Germany is doing in Eastern Europe continues to seep out and what many first assumed were typical Soviet lies grow more and more alarmed at the depraved nation. 1952 ended with the world tense, America stockpiling hundreds of atomic bombs and growing larger still, and the Soviet Remnant entering into the defense alliance with the US and British.

1953: The belief, that the A-bomb would ensure world peace, which had in part allowed Ike to secure his election was horribly challenged by Germany's first successful atomic detonation. The Furhrer wasting no time posturing the technological achievement as well as ordering a mass production of atomic warheads not for bombers but for the latest V series rocket.

1954-1955- The US countered by launching a crash program to advanced their own rocket program. By late '54 Britain, fearful for its continued existence, followed the US and Germany in detonating their own atomic bomb through they focused on building heavier bombers to make the crossing instead of rocket-bombs. Tension continues to build among the nations, each of whom keep their Atomic crews on standby.

1956- The razor-wire tight relations are snapped by a Nazi-Soviet border skirmish, A relatively common act through the years, escalates. The Nazi's quickly gain the upper hand and proceed to finish what they started the previous decade. The US issues a warning to the Furhrer that the Eisenhower doctrine will be carried through if hostilities are not halted immediately. The Furhrer, aware of America crash program resulting in an inferior but effective version of their own atomic-missile and realizing that in as little as a year the US could posses as many such rockets as his nation had accumulated in two and half years of frantic building, carries out his own prepared doctrine. U-boat commanders the world over receive their orders and launch a first strike. The counter attack, the warbirds kept at a moments notice for this eventuality, is heavier than the optimistic assurances of the Furhrer aids but facing high speed German fighter planes, backed by ground radar systems, and using simple but powerful rockets bombs instead of traditional munitions results in many, through not nearly all, of the bombers being shot down.

1957-US and Germany offically declare peace through no actual warfare had taken place for months. The two nations retreating to lick their partially self-inflicted wounds. Germany, having taken lesser damage, focuses on cannibalizing what remains of the USSR to obtain the food and raw resources its people need. The US, large segment of the government vaporized, retreats into almost anarchy through with the support of its Northern neighbor, who largely escaped damage in the war, it continues through fully removed from the world stage for the foreseeable future.

My to cents anyway.
 
Im seeing that if the Germans and japanese manage to survie WW2 on favorable terms we could see a few things happen. If the USSR survives behind the ural mountains and have a massive militarised border between the Greater German Riech and the Union of Soviet Socailist Republics. i Can see Japan keeping parts of china and we have a week communist China. if push comes to shove and the powers go out it it will see the USA and the USSR China And The UK on one side and Germany Italy and Japan on the other


I can see the Russians retaking a demolished Moscow...i can see German tanks rolling throught time square... i can see japanese in LA i can see americans and britsh landing in paris
 

Enji_Daimyo

Banned
Realistically? To invade and conquer the US by 1975? We'd have to handwave away atomic knowledge and instill Drakaverse stupidity in anyone not an Axis member. The US size, distance and relatively large population makes conquest difficult at the best and as long as the two factions are comparable in tech it's nearly impossible. Germany can be the Hyperpower, can defeat the US in a war, but actual boots on the ground is a stretch.

My thoughts on a more "Realistic" scenario:
1940:Hitler doesn't allow Goering to try and crush Dunkirk with air power alone and crushes the stranded army in the field,subsequently,with the situation looking bleak, by year ends Great Britain agrees to Hitler's generous peace terms. (Yes I know this is borderline ASB, I put Realistic in apostrophes for a reason)

1941:On the eve of what he believes will be his greatest triumph Adolf Hitler health deteriorates forcing him to step down from actual control of the country through he is still a figurehead and "spiritual adviser" to the party. (Yes I know again outlandish but considering the man's OTL health issues not nearly as ASB as before.) Due to the power struggle Hitler's departure generates, ultimately leading to a cabal leading Germany, operation Barbarossa is postponed for the immediate future. Finally Japan declares war on the US and Great Britain with Germany,near a mini civil war at home, declaring its neutrality.

1942-1943: Stalin, sensing weakness and finishing the reforms prompted from the winter war, sets out to destroy the radically anti-soviet Nazi Germany. The Anglo-American forces, distracted with Japan, pay little heed as Soviets smash through occupied Poland and drive towards German proper. The British hope both destroy each other while Americans range from complete indifference to slight support towards the Germans who are viewed as lesser evil compared to the Soviets. The war in the Pacific makes heady progress as the allies develop an island hopping campaign which skips them across towards Japan's home islands. There they vainly employ firebombing raids in hopes of breaking Japanese will.

1944:Germany, bolstered by US sold supplies and not hectored by a British navy occupied in the Pacific, stalemates the Soviet Dreadnought and eventually began to push them slowly away. During the same time an invasion of the home island occurs resulting in a high death count for all sides and leading to years of "brushfire" rebellion. FDR loses reelection, his unseemingly fourth term no less, to Thomas E. Dewey by a fraction largely attributed due to the than omni-present death figures growing larger by the day.

1945-1946:Germany continues its advances against the deteriorating Russian Hoard. The legions of veterans backed not only with increasing amounts of US arms, desperate for a market as the Pacific war slowly winded down, but advanced German weapons such as jet fighters, v-2 rockets, and assault rifles. The Soviets, ordered by Stalin to fight for every inch of worker's soil and growing desperate, "leak" information regarding the camps and atrocities being set up by the Germans in former Poland and now Russian territory in hopes of drawing the Allies into the fray. Britain, growing weary and enjoying the show, refuses while the US, retreating back into isolationism, is content to finish up with Japan and let the world be staying strictly neutral in the affair.

1947-1948-German forces take and hold Moscow along with numerous other Soviet cities. Stalin, who vowed never to give up or surrender, suffers a "health" related incident and perishes leaving Molotov free, with consent of the provisional Soviet leadership, to broker a peace deal. Germany, demanding and receiving a large pound of flesh, accepts. It continues to expand and advance its military at a worrisome rate, building larger more powerful tanks, more potent rocket-bombs and begins an expansion of its much neglected navy. Dewey, growing worried, reactivates a military project sidetracked since the end of the Pacific war. A formal defense pact between the US and Great Britain pledging to defend the other if attacked is also signed. In the '48 election Dewey eks out a bare victory trumpting his ending the hostilities in the Pacific and the peace time prosperity he helped ushered in.

1949-1952:The US stuns the world in early 1950 with the detonation of an Atomic bomb. Germany leaders most of all take note as America parades the weapon, as well as continental bomber, as the ultimate defender of liberty. They in turn found solace in their legions of jet fighters, superior to the early clumsy models either the Americans or British had, to protect their skies and their ever more powerful rocket-bombs to bomb with impunity regardless of the defenders air power. The knowledge of what Germany is doing in Eastern Europe continues to seep out and what many first assumed were typical Soviet lies grow more and more alarmed at the depraved nation. 1952 ended with the world tense, America stockpiling hundreds of atomic bombs and growing larger still, and the Soviet Remnant entering into the defense alliance with the US and British.

1953: The belief, that the A-bomb would ensure world peace, which had in part allowed Ike to secure his election was horribly challenged by Germany's first successful atomic detonation. The Furhrer wasting no time posturing the technological achievement as well as ordering a mass production of atomic warheads not for bombers but for the latest V series rocket.

1954-1955- The US countered by launching a crash program to advanced their own rocket program. By late '54 Britain, fearful for its continued existence, followed the US and Germany in detonating their own atomic bomb through they focused on building heavier bombers to make the crossing instead of rocket-bombs. Tension continues to build among the nations, each of whom keep their Atomic crews on standby.

1956- The razor-wire tight relations are snapped by a Nazi-Soviet border skirmish, A relatively common act through the years, escalates. The Nazi's quickly gain the upper hand and proceed to finish what they started the previous decade. The US issues a warning to the Furhrer that the Eisenhower doctrine will be carried through if hostilities are not halted immediately. The Furhrer, aware of America crash program resulting in an inferior but effective version of their own atomic-missile and realizing that in as little as a year the US could posses as many such rockets as his nation had accumulated in two and half years of frantic building, carries out his own prepared doctrine. U-boat commanders the world over receive their orders and launch a first strike. The counter attack, the warbirds kept at a moments notice for this eventuality, is heavier than the optimistic assurances of the Furhrer aids but facing high speed German fighter planes, backed by ground radar systems, and using simple but powerful rockets bombs instead of traditional munitions results in many, through not nearly all, of the bombers being shot down.

1957-US and Germany offically declare peace through no actual warfare had taken place for months. The two nations retreating to lick their partially self-inflicted wounds. Germany, having taken lesser damage, focuses on cannibalizing what remains of the USSR to obtain the food and raw resources its people need. The US, large segment of the government vaporized, retreats into almost anarchy through with the support of its Northern neighbor, who largely escaped damage in the war, it continues through fully removed from the world stage for the foreseeable future.

My to cents anyway.
Loved it. I have one question.

How would the holocaust be played out in the world view here? Im going with a wild guess that the Russian holocaust would be the one coming to light.
 
Thoughts on a Axis Victory

There are many plausible ways for an overwhelming Axis victory in WWII. Most of the critics who say it is absolutely impossible cite reasons pertaining to the war as it was fought OTL from 1939 in Europe and 1941 in the Pacific. With a POD as early as 1933 you can have a much different war, one that is winnable by the Axis. Here are some thoughts, not all to be considered together but each with significant impact:

No war between Japan & the US – Right up until December 1941 there was strong resistance from many Japanese military and civilian leaders to war with the US. It doesn’t take a huge departure to avoid that war. A negotiated peace with China in the mid to late 30’s would remove the impetus for much of the US’s anti-Japanese measures. Perhaps a stronger/sooner Communist effort from Mao would force Chiang to the negotiation table. A slightly less militant Japan, or a Japan with great control over its Army commanders might have prevented the 1937 OTL war with China. If Japan’s conflict with China could be ended early leaving Japan with control of Korea and Manchukuo they would be in a good position a good position to jump on a wounded and distracted Soviet Union at a later time. A Japan not at war with America could eventually easily take the Dutch East Indies and Indo China when their colonial masters are knocked out by Germany. Avoiding conflict with Britain is harder as the British will see any Japanese expansion as a threat to their Asian colonies. An isolationist US will not enter a war with Japan without Pearl Harbor, particularly if the Japanese are no longer fighting the KMT. Perhaps the many Anglophile and America-phile (is that a word) Japanese could play a stronger role in their diplomatic relations with the US. They could play on America’s general anti-colonialism if they could find native support in Indo-China and East Indies. This would require a less brutal Japan (again – greater control over the Army.)

A Less Anti-Semitic Germany – Although anti-semitism was widespread throughout all of Europe even the Nazi leadership was not entirely anti-semitic. If enough shift in the control of Germany went to leaders who were not militantly anti-semitic perhaps the widespread emigration of Jewish scientists and engineers could have been prevented. Einstein stays in or returns to Germany. Still a pacifist he is unlikely to aid the German war effort but he never writes a letter to an American presidents lending his gravitas to the idea of pursuing an atomic bomb. America does become the first nation to a build the bomb. With fewer foreign scientists, and not involved in conflict with either Germany or Japan, the Manhattan project is never even considered.

Hitler out of the Picture – Coup, assassination, early death, however you do it, removing the nut job leaves Germany in more capable hands and its able generals with a greater freedom to pursue a successful defeat of the Soviet Union. A Nazi Germany without Hitler would still eventually invade its neighbors but might do so in a more rational, measured manner. Combined with a less anti-semitic government a Germany focused on defeating Bolshevism first would be much less of a threat to US and even the UK.

Defeating the USSR first. – If Germany had focused all of its resources and planning on defeating the USSR it is much more plausible venture. Perhaps a more militant Stalin could move on Poland before or by 1939. Without a German invasion of Poland the French and British are not automatically drawn into a war with Germany. The eventual German invasion of Russian occupied Poland will not start a world war. The “East European War” becomes a struggle between Fascism and Communism. No one in Western Europes likes seeing a strengthening Germany but no one wants to tangle with the just to save Stalin.

Avoiding Churchill – Getting Winston Churchill out of the picture definitely brightens the Axis outlook. If Germany focuses East perhaps Chamberlain stays in power. A Germany without Hitler but strongly anti-communist is less riling to Churchill. The longer Churchill stays out of significant positions of power the better.

Franco joins the Axis. – At whatever point Germany fights the Western European powers (preferably after the defeat of the Soviet Union.) it would be a big bonus to have Spain on their side. France would have a two front war (maybe they would be defeated in four weeks instead of six!) The naval struggle with Britain would be easier for Germany with the Spanish coastline in friendly hands. British control of the Mediterranean and North Africa would be much harder.

Japan Invades the Soviet Union – Either a coordinated attack when Germany invades or a later “piling on” when the USSR is struggling to fend of the German invasion, either way the Japanese in the East would be another nail in the Soviet coffin. If Japan is not at war with the US and UK or even China they could bring a great deal of force to bear.

An isolationist USA – Without the USA the allies would fall. Starting as far back as 1933 you can do a lot to fiddle with the US leadership and will to fight overseas. Without a direct attack (PH), without a declaration of War from Hitler, with a less threatening (in their direction) Japan, there are a lot of ways you can keep the US out of the war. And with the US out of the war the US does not experience the massive economic an technological growth it has in OTL. After an axis victory over the USSR and eventually Western Europe you might see long Cold War but the US would be much weaker. Atomic weapons developed first by Germany during or after the war could be the tipping point that makes the US incapable of mounting a threat to Germany for some time.
 
The Greater War,

1933: The butterfly begin its journey.
Germany annexes Austria in 1934. Researches in general receives increased funds and ressources compared to IOTL.
1936, himmler becomes convinced the ancient Aryans might had some sort of atomic-based weapon.
By 1937, he decides that this weapon can be re-dicovered, start a small think-tank.
In January 1938, the splitting of Uranium 238 is discovered by Austrian scientists, it is confirmmed in March and it comes to the attention of the SS. The discovery is covered up.
Himmler lobbies for researchs on the field and gain the support of Goering and Albert Speer.
When war fail to broke out in August (Instead of October as IOTL, Germany is military and economically stronger stronger with the earlier annexation of Austria), Hitler comes to suspect this might be a weapon that can easely win a future war against the USA and agrees.
1939: March, Poland sells Dantzig in exchange for a very beneficial economic treaty, the parition of Lithuania with Latvia and Germany. Soon after, Hungary and Germany moves against the remains of Czechoslovakia, sparking protests from France and Britain.
June, the Polish regime starts demanding the return of Dantzig, once military and industrial equippement have already been sent to Poland.
Fights in the far east between the Japanes and the Soviet Army starts increasing in scale.
November, Red Army invades Mandchuko. Germany declares war to the Soviet-Union.
While Hungary, Italy and Slovakia are preparing to follow, Dantzig fall under attack by Poland, which no longer fear a soviet attack. In former lithuania, German forces faces a Latvian offensive.
Italy, Hungary and Slovakia declares war to Poland, Latvia and the Soviet-Union.
France and Britain decides to declare war on Polish/Soviet side. French and British forces attacks Italian colonies by the end of the month. The mobilisation is a large blow to atomic researchs, the allied governements wants its scientists to be engaged in more practical projects.
Hitler meanwhile realises the war will be a long one, he finally give his full support to Project Mjöllnir. Total German war effort also starts 3 years and 3 months earlier than IOTL.
 

burmafrd

Banned
As has been pointed out the Isolationists were quite happy to fund a strong military. That would have happened no matter what. And R & D was also something the isolationists supported. One thing most realized early on was how important air power was. The US put more effort into that then any other nation. Not just R & D, but on production and the very necessary training and support areas. Which was something very much neglected by the Axis in comparison.

These accounts of Civil War in the US are laughable. Nothing ever came close- there were still Civil war Veterans alive into the 1930's, and their sons and daughters had grown up on stories about it. No one wanted any part of another one. The US was just too big and too developed to become as weak as would be needed to allow this to happen. And there were more good leaders then are known, so getting rid of a few would not make all that much of a difference.
 
Uber-Axis Victory? Let's see...

In December 1941 the Germans were at the gates of Moscow and playing a see-saw battle with the British in Libya. The British, Dutch and French colonial empires were either defenceless or demoralised. The Japanese altready dominated most of the northern Pacific because of the 1919 Treaty of Verseilles and these islands would've been the perfect base upon which to attack the South Pacific islands. Their takeover of French Indo-China several months earlier gave them a perfect springboard for attacking Malaya and the Dutch East Indies. They could've walked over most of Asia and the Pacific without involving the USA.

If the Japanese didn't invade the Phillippines and didn't bomb Pearl Harbour they would not have dragged the United States into a war in Asia and if the Japanese had not attacked Pearl Harbour Hitler would not have declared war on the United States. Without Hitler's declaration of war the Americans would not have extended the Lend Lease Agreement to the USSR, which proved to be decisive in helping the USSR defeat the Germans.

If the Americans weren't involved in the war in Asia the British would've had to come to some agreement with the Japanese because there was no way they could've kept fighting both the Germans and the Japanese. In April 1939 the British said as much when they had an Imperial Conference in Wellington, New Zealand, when they basically told the Australians and New Zealanders that if a war broke out in Asia and Europe they would be left to fend for themselves. It was then that the Americans committed themselves to defending Australia and New Zealand if the British couldn't.

Without the Lend Lease Agreement the Soviet Union would've ended up in a stalemate It was too big to be defeated but too weak to win so they would've signed a treaty with the Germans not unlike the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk (Feb 1918) that would've stopped the fighting in Russia and allowed the Germans to deal with a demoralised Britain whom I reckon would've sued for some sort of Armistice, especially as they would've become war weary by about the mid-1940s.
 
It should be noted that i have made an essay on the issue of the Nazi Victory. Shameless self-plug i know:D:eek:. But still, it's a good essay.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=145823

It's really a good essay. And it points out completely IMHO that a nazi victory is impossible.

Furthermore, there are several points cited which make a nazi victory impossible even with a POD significantly before 1933 simply because Nazi politics have several flaws considering foreign ethnicities, economics, freedom and the like, making an Uber-Nazi Empire extremely vulnerable to any foreign, democratic power as well as internal opposition.

If the question is, however, if some German leader with a POD in 1933 could manage to form an Uber-Empire: Yes, that could be done. But it will require that Germany is NOT ruled by Nazis trying to establish the 100-year racist Uber-Reich in a single war.
 
Former Soviet-Union, Germany establish a nationist Russian governement in most of it, though territories west of a line from Tallin to Rostov and Rostov to Astrakhan is still secceded to the Reich.
Japanes seizes the far east but nationalist Russia have western China, in exchange for intervention there.
India is liberated from British occupation and made an axis allie too. Iran, Iraq and Turkey are axis allies.
Serbia have a conservative anti-communist governement instead of being an occupation zone.
Spain is part of the axis, with the Falangists in power instead of Franco. Vichy France is possibly a full axis member, after declaring war to Britain following British naval attack.
Britain itself is occupied, rather england is, Scotland and Wales are sovereign states.

In WW3 the United states attempt to send bombers against Germany, these bombers are shot down using swarms of anti-aircraft missiles supported by jet fighters. The Axis strikes back using rockets or rocket aircrafts far too high altitude to be shot down by US air defences that doesn´t have the same advance in anti-aircraft missiles. The US mostly relies on anti-aircraft guns and an ovewerhelming number of fighters (they have started using jets but these are not as advanced as German ones), those are nearly powerless.
Tens of millions of casualties, the USA surrenders and is divided in occupation zones and some areas that are not occupied.
 
Former Soviet-Union, Germany establish a nationist Russian governement in most of it, though territories west of a line from Tallin to Rostov and Rostov to Astrakhan is still secceded to the Reich.
Japanes seizes the far east but nationalist Russia have western China, in exchange for intervention there.
India is liberated from British occupation and made an axis allie too. Iran, Iraq and Turkey are axis allies.
Serbia have a conservative anti-communist governement instead of being an occupation zone.
Spain is part of the axis, with the Falangists in power instead of Franco. Vichy France is possibly a full axis member, after declaring war to Britain following British naval attack.
Britain itself is occupied, rather england is, Scotland and Wales are sovereign states.

In WW3 the United states attempt to send bombers against Germany, these bombers are shot down using swarms of anti-aircraft missiles supported by jet fighters. The Axis strikes back using rockets or rocket aircrafts far too high altitude to be shot down by US air defences that doesn´t have the same advance in anti-aircraft missiles. The US mostly relies on anti-aircraft guns and an ovewerhelming number of fighters (they have started using jets but these are not as advanced as German ones), those are nearly powerless.
Tens of millions of casualties, the USA surrenders and is divided in occupation zones and some areas that are not occupied.

picard-facepalm.jpg


The Nazis would not be in any position to occupy the US and if anything the Japanse would choke on their colonial territories as the US would supply any insurgency with arms. As well as that, the US would still defeat Japan. We would see the Republics of China and India being Integral US allies during any cold War.

The Nazis would be in no position to take India and Iran. Look at my essay. It completely tears to shreds any myth about the third reich's military capability. Think of it as the Tom Gervasi's Myth of Soviet Military Supremacy for WW2.

A more realistic (rough) timeline:

1933 - Hitler comes to power after being appointed by Hindenburg. Events such as the Reichstag fire go on as OTL.

1934 - Hitler becomes Fuhrer after Hindenburg's death. He begins more serious reforms than OTL of the German military in preparation for a world war. A year later, the Navy is also built up over 4 years under the Anglo German agreement.

1938 - After the seizure of the Sudetenland, Hitler's miltiary reforms include the German Army Doctrine of one light tank, one medium tank and one heavy tank. Nazi tanks are designed to be easier to mass produced than OTL. Hitler also orders research into the atomic bomb and Jet Fighters to begin.

1939 - The Economy shifts into a war economy as Hitler invades Poland.

1940 - Germany invades and conquers france within 6 weeks. attention turns to britain, the last free nation to oppose Hitler. Massive bombing raids begin with Experimentl jet aircraft beign used as well to attack major industrial centres. In the US, President roosevelt orders a massive arms buildup, and instructs Goddard to create rockets. u-boats are used to cut off british shipping.

1941 - Britain agrees to an armistice with Nazi Germany. Hitler then turns his attention to russia, and launches Barbarossa in May 1941. However, his soldiers are better prepared for war. Pearl Harbour takes place just like OTL, but Hitler doesn't declare war on America, for now. de Gaulle flees to Montreal to set up a government in exile.

1942 - Moscow has fallen, but guerilla fighting persists. Stalin has been killed by a cadre of Generals eager to pursue peace with Hitler. After a U-boat sinks an american ship delivering supplies to the Soviet Union, the USA declares war. However, hopes for peace on the eastern front are dashed when leaked documents indicate what Hitler plans to do to Russia.

1943 - The USA and Germany confront each other on the seas, with the Iowa class battleship taking on the legendary Tirpitz. The Tirpitz is sent to Davy Jones' locker, with all hands lost. By now, most of European Russia has fallen to German forces. However, the Soviet Union is still capable of defeating Nazi Germany. The US P-80 shooting star enters service. The Americans are sending soldiers across to Russia in order to bolster the German armies.

1944 - The USA convince Portugal to allow the US to establish bases in exchange for loans. Hitler is enraged and plans for war in Iberia. However, his generals warn him that Germny doesn't have the capacity to fight the United States - Yet. Franco remains cautiously neutral. The Americans release the F-86 into service, while britain simultaneously rejoins the allies after a significant buildup of Vampire jets. In the Eastern front, the US/Red Army defeat the Nazis at Astrakhan and begin, slowly, to force them back.

1945 - Both nations detonate their atomic bombs within 5 months of each other, with Hitler declaring that the Bomb is for the express intent of defeating the western powers, and is not to be used in Russia. The first nuclear device is used on Hiroshima just like OTL. The United states then finally convinces Franco to join the allies after enough US soldiers have landed on Portugal. Britain's skies are infested with fighters as the Luftwaffe try to deploy a nuclear bomb on London. Thankfully, the bomb is intercepted and the plane shot down. Moscow is liberated by now with a large Allied force. This pincer will crush the reich and end the war.

1946 - the F-89 (OTL F-100) begins service with the B-36 bomber. Germany itself is under attack from the USAF and the RAF while Von Braun tries hurriedly to work on a nuclear missile. His work would never come to fruition due to a bomber deploying a Uranium 235 bomb on Peenemunde in an all out attack. This rare air strike shows that Germany's defences are cracking. Meanwhile, Allied forces are en route to expelling the last German forces from Russia.

1947 - America convinces Franco to join the Allies, leading to the Pincer tactic being deployed by the Allies as Hitler has to fight on two fronts. Hitler desperately orders a nuclear strike on london, which fails just short of the Dover coast. Meanwhile, the Americans begin to crush the remnants of the KM's U-Boat force. France and spain turn into a battlefield as nuclear weapons are used on Barcelona and Marseilles. The end of the Reich is now certain as Allied forces march into Ukraine.

1948 - the Hydrogen bomb is completed by the Americans in New Mexico, which is called the Hyperbomb. The Hyperbomb is more devastating than the Atomic bomb and goes into production, with plans for a nuclear hit on Berlin by 1949. The Nazis use Nerve gas on the Red Army at the edges of Ukraine.

1949 - A Single Experimental B-52 bomber with a heavy escort drops a hyperbomb over Berlin, devastating everything. Hitler is wiped out along with much of the Nazi Party. Valkyrie goes into effect and the provisional german government signs a surrender treaty ending World War 2 at last. final Death toll: 110 million.
 
Last edited:
The Nazis would not be in any position to occupy the US and if anything the Japanse would choke on their colonial territories as the US would supply any insurgency with arms. As well as that, the US would still defeat Japan. We would see the Republics of China and India being Integral US allies during any cold War.

LOL WUT? You mean the US wouldn´t surrender after +20 millions civilian causalties? BTW It doesn´t happen in the 1940s, it can be anywhere upp to 1975. 1933-1975, that is a period of 42 years.

The Nazis would be in no position to take India and Iran.

No, in this case India and Iran are German allies, not colonies. Communism have fallen and the new regime in the former soviet-union allow German passage into India in exchange for IOTL northern Pakistan and Tibet.

1946 - the F-89 (OTL F-104) begins service with the B-36 bomber. Germany itself is under attack from the USAF and the RAF while Von Braun tries hurriedly to work on a nuclear missile. His work would never come to fruition due to a bomber deploying a Uranium 235 bomb on Peenemunde. This leads to nuclear weapons being used on Berlin and Munich, annihilating much of the Nazi Party apparatus. Valkyrie makes a surrender agreement ending World War 2.

picard-facepalm.jpg




LOL, A bombs aren´t H bombs, one or even a few can destroy a city made of plywood like Hiroshima but Munich and Berlin? Leadership of Germany being in Berlin, despite Hiroshima still being hit by an A bomb? :D

Just read http://theshatteredworld.blogspot.com/, if you want to a realistic take at nuclear war.

Only reason the US had air superiority over Germany in 1944 -1945 is that much of the Luftwaffen was busy or have been shot down over the eastern front.
Now let us see, no eastern front, no england as a base of operation and support, Germany declaring total war from day 1... :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
LOL WUT? You mean the US wouldn´t surrender after +20 millions civilian causalties? BTW It doesn´t happen in the 1940s, it can be anywhere upp to 1975. 1933-1975, that is a period of 42 years.

The Soviet Union didn't surrender after 25 million casualties. Besides, by that stage, the Nazis would be in terminal decline with corruption, insurgents, economic problems technological stagnation. Let's see, an Me-562 (my name for the German jets) would be no match for the F-18 equivalents. The United States would have raced past the tech gap by that stage like OTL USSR.

I pointed out in my essay that Nazi technology was highly overrated.

No, in this case India and Iran are German allies, not colonies. Communism have fallen and the new regime in the former soviet-union allow German passage into India in exchange for IOTL northern Pakistan and Tibet.

Roflcopter! Iran was staunchly in the British Sphere of Influence, as Operation Ajax showed. It would just shift to America who would never allow Nazi Germany to win. India would not be allies of the Nazis. Heck, even Gandhi would not allow it.

LOL, A bombs aren´t H bombs, they can destroy a city made of plywood like Hiroshima but Munich and Berlin?
Only reason the US had air superiority over Germany in 1944 -1945 is that much of the Luftwaffen was busy or have been shot down over the eastern front.
Now let us see, no eastern front, no england as a base of operation, Germany declaring total war from day 1... :rolleyes:

I did explicitly mention America would have Portugal as a Base of Operations and Britain did rejoin the war, with both nations having jet fighters. The United States also has a superior industrial capacity and warmaking capability. I also implied that Germany was heavily resisting the B-36 raids.
 
Hi Avalon1. Just thought I'd add my two cents to the discussion.

Your timeline, while interesting, appears focused to ensure Nazi Germany loses rather than a "realistic" scenario.

Avalon1 said:
1942 - Moscow has fallen, but guerilla fighting persists. Stalin has been killed by a cadre of Generals eager to pursue peace with Hitler. After a U-boat sinks an American ship delivering supplies to the Soviet Union, the USA declares war.
Wouldn't the US be slightly distracted by Japan in addition would they would even continue sending lend-lease to losing commies while engaged in their own separate war?

Avalon1 said:
1943 - By now, most of European Russia has fallen to German forces. However, the Soviet Union is still capable of defeating Nazi Germany. The US P-80 shooting star enters service.
Two things. The USSR is at that point headless( Stalin is dead and Moscow has been taken), likely ran by a cabal seeking peace, likely disorganized and reduced to partisan warfare. I don't see the USSR being anything but a back burner front and incapable of defeating Germany, much less a Germany who will have their own A-bomb in two years. Two I understand FDR started pushing earlier but isn't the P-80 in mass by 1943 a little quick.

Avalon1 said:
The Americans release the F-86 into service, while britain simultaneously rejoins the allies after a significant buildup of Vampire jets. In the Eastern front, the Red Army defeat the Nazis at Astrakhan and begin, slowly, to force them back.
1. The F-86 first flew in 1947 after the project started in '44 IIRC and didn't enter service until two years later. Even assuming they started ITTL in '42 it shouldn't be entering into service so soon. 2. The Red army at this point should be coming apart at the seams as internal factions fight for control. In addition they should be increasingly outmatched militarily by the Germans who have better prepared for General Winter, increased their industry equaling more Tiger and upgraded Panzer IV tanks and apparently have mass produced the me-262 by this point in time.

Avalon1 said:
Both nations detonate their atomic bombs within 5 months of each other.
Which now ensure the USSR has no ghost of a chance of pushing the Germans out. The US is out of reach but USSR, who lacked air superiority in the OTL much less against super Germany, can be bombed. Who ever is in charge of the USSR, which likely was the target of the Nazi's detonation, would sign whatever paper Hitler wanted to keep what remains of his nation.

Avalon1 said:
the F-89 (OTL F-104) begins service with the B-36 bomber.
The F-104 entered service in 1958 after we annexed German scientists and got a boost. I find it very, very unlikely that we would advance so quickly ahead of the OTL even if we are in the middle of a war.

Avalon1 said:
Germany itself is under attack from the USAF and the RAF while Von Braun tries hurriedly to work on a nuclear missile. His work would never come to fruition due to a bomber deploying a Uranium 235 bomb on Peenemunde
Considering this in well after both sides know of and have used A-bombs wouldn't his lab have enough protection a "raid" couldn't get through regardless of the situation elsewhere? Again at this stage the US should only be fielding P-80s and recently F-86 analogues. I don't know what Germany could field but it should be better than a P-80.
 
well, most of the German forces are in the Eastern front as you said. they would be more into putting down insurgencies and are being bled dry by partisans who are getting American help. As well as that, the Nazis would always have lost any war if the USA got involved.

and it's not as if they can magically crank out F-22s.

The US/Britain are catching up to German tech, and it's implied that they have superior industrial capacity.
 
well, most of the German forces are in the Eastern front as you said. they would be more into putting down insurgencies and are being bled dry by partisans who are getting American help. As well as that, the Nazis would always have lost any war if the USA got involved.

and it's not as if they can magically crank out F-22s.

The US/Britain are catching up to German tech, and it's implied that they have superior industrial capacity.

1.I agree if the US enters the war Germany has lost. I just have doubts the US would enter a war to defend the USSR with Britain out of the war, doubly so with Japan fighting us.

2.While the Germans can't magically make F-22's they would advance their jet program and likely be cutting edge making the others react to them. This in turn makes it very hard for small style raids you describe taking out Von Braun to happen and even large formation will have issues, early jets were poor escorts if I remember correctly.
 
2.While the Germans can't magically make F-22's they would advance their jet program and likely be cutting edge making the others react to them. This in turn makes it very hard for small style raids you describe taking out Von Braun to happen and even large formation will have issues, early jets were poor escorts if I remember correctly.
Actually, since the German jet-engines from early 1944 onwards were crap compared to the Allied ones, it will be the Germans playing catch-up.
The Allies will start fielding far superior jets come 1945, when they slowly switch from piston to jets (piston-fighters which, I might add, will be at least equal to the German jets of that time), with engines that aren't a dead end.
 
Top