Uber-Axis Total Victory: Is it possible?

Uber-Axis total victory is only possible either with:

(1) An Axis China
OR
(2) An Axis Soviet Union
OR
(3) An Axis USA

Since (2) and (3) are extremely hard to achieve. 1 is only the most plausible of the options (and it's still quite implausible even then)
... but you're still going for it (quite well, I might add). :cool:
 
... but you're still going for it (quite well, I might add). :cool:

Whoever said that my TL would end in an uber axis total victory?

Just remember, it doesn't matter how well developed your armed forces/economy is... if you don't have nukes...

Not that that's a hint or anything :p
 
Whoever said that my TL would end in an uber axis total victory?

Just remember, it doesn't matter how well developed your armed forces/economy is... if you don't have nukes...

Not that that's a hint or anything :p
OH MY GOD SUBSCRIBED!!!!:eek::eek::eek:

Oh, er, back on topic, so could the Germans take everyone out one by one? Western Europe and Russia on time, Britain in the 50s, America in the 70s (with Japanese help for the last two)?
I mean, what if Hitler died early enough after *WW2 that someone sane took charge and got Germany back on track economically and technologically?
 
Uber-Axis total victory is only possible either with:

(1) An Axis China
OR
(2) An Axis Soviet Union
OR
(3) An Axis USA

Since (2) and (3) are extremely hard to achieve. 1 is only the most plausible of the options (and it's still quite implausible even then)

the number too again depent of which kind of china(again i read you're foreword post), if is a stable china who kicked out the japanesse back to korea before munich crisis... The Wallies(without USA but with USA in some case) are fucked and equal for the SU(a two massive front barbarossa is the End for the soviets).

Again that depents of the butterflies can make some 'Little Admiral Scenario' but for me equal is the japanesse ara fucked, the only true axis member was always germany
 

Glen

Moderator
There are hundreds of stories out there of every kind about an alternate WW2 that leaves a Reich-dominated Europe up to the Urals, a massive Japanese Empire in Asia and the Pacific, and an America occupied and/or annexed and/or balkanised by the Krauts and/or Japs. Examples include Man in the High Castle, In the Presence of Mine Enemies, etc.
But whenever a realistic scenario is tryed to work out here, the concessions are huge. Japan is almost always thrown under the bus, Russia is still very much alive behind their Ural or even Brest-Litvosk borders, Germany has no colonial empire and is struggling just as hard as it can to keep the puppet states to its West and the Lebensraum to its East in line, significant amounts of the British Empire/Commonwealth are controlled by a sort of Free British exile government, America is the dominant superpower, etc., etc., etc.
MY question is, how can we realistically achieve the former scenario, and how would it play out from there. Little details can vary (i.e. whether Italy is a Great Power in its own right or just a Germany wannabe, whether India or the Americas are under German or Japanese influence, etc) but the end goal must be, with a POD no earlier than Hitler's election, and with WW2 starting of in an acceptably recognizable way (America CAN remain isolationist if need be) have the world be split between the Nazi German and Imperial Japanese camps by 1975.
Discuss.

The Business Plot goes undetected and is launched. While the plotters themselves are not as slick as they think, they do spark the tinder of angry unemployed men throughout the nation, and the Second American Civil War begins. It is a messy affair, not between rival states but rival factions and idealogies. Leaders come and go, and the nation is thrown into chaos for a decade.

With the United States so distracted, Japan and Germany are essentially given a free hand on the world stage. The UK sues for peace after the capture of the British Army in the opening stages of World War II. Shortly thereafter, a Nazi sympathiser in the UK leaks the initial findings and research on the feasibility of an atomic bomb, giving new life to the project in Germany. While the war against Russia doesn't go as well as first as the Nazis would like, before things get dicey the development and deployment of atomic weapons and planes big enough to carry them change everything, leading to the complete capitulation of the Soviet Union to the Reich.

The UK follows Mosley into the Fascist Camp after the war, and a Fascist regime rises from the ashes of the Second American Revolution in the US. Capitalism and Communism are both essentially dead as a new world order sets in, led by the Germans in the West and the Japanese in the East.
 
Uber-Axis total victory is only possible either with:

(1) An Axis China
OR
(2) An Axis Soviet Union
OR
(3) An Axis USA

Since (2) and (3) are extremely hard to achieve. 1 is only the most plausible of the options (and it's still quite implausible even then)

It's highly possible that with an Axis Soviet Union the Axis can still lose. Because where exactly can they attack? India? The Soviet's thought logistics were bad in Germany imagine them even farther from their base of power. China? Yeah get involved with that Quagmire. Because no matter what America will beat Japan. No matter what.

This leaves Great Britain sitting there with the Soviets and the German's staring across the channel at them. The Soviet's and their brilliant navy don't really help the German's against the RN and the USN. The British Isles are going to hold with America in the war. Therefore it becomes bomb Germany into submission. The nuclear warhead will be the Allies tool of terror and will knock out Russia and Germany who will be unable to get the bomb for a long time. The German's made a miscalculation which delayed them by years. They could maybe never have gotten one. The Russian's with stolen secrets took 4 more years then the allies. Me thinks Moscow, Berlin, Leningrad, and numerous other key cities could go up in flames.

This says nothing of potential backstabbing. Who thinks Uncle Joe and Brother Adolf would remain steadfast allies :)
 
Uber-Axis total victory is only possible either with:

(1) An Axis China
OR
(2) An Axis Soviet Union
OR
(3) An Axis USA

Since (2) and (3) are extremely hard to achieve. 1 is only the most plausible of the options (and it's still quite implausible even then)
Well, an axis China would probably mean an allied (or at least friendly and neutral) Japan, so that would have freed up quite some forces.
 
So the consensus is that the Axis of Germany, Italy, Japan and minor powers could not conquer the rest of the world without adding further great powers. If this happens it is not the Axis as we know it but something else.
 
I can't see Germany realistically winning WW2 in any way, let alone a total victory. It required excellent luck and an utterly incompetent enemy for Germany to defeat France (maybe for Japan's early victories in the pacific, but I'm not an expert there), and even when they got those two ingredients again and again they still couldn't defeat the USSR (or take Egypt). By 1943, when Stalin had finally stopped interfering with his generals and the Americans had reorganised after being licked at Kasserine pass, the war was over. Economics and logistics, gentlemen.
 

Glen

Moderator
So the consensus is that the Axis of Germany, Italy, Japan and minor powers could not conquer the rest of the world without adding further great powers. If this happens it is not the Axis as we know it but something else.

Or at least neutralizing a few more than what they faced OTL.
 

wormyguy

Banned
This is probably the minimum Axis vs. Allies (at the outbreak of war, and with a 1933 POD) needed to achieve something close to an "Uber-Axis total victory."

EDIT: I forgot Poland!

maximumaxis.png
 

Markus

Banned
Uber-Axis Total Victory: Is it possible?

IMO not at all, no way, never. The two biggest advantages Germany enjoyed were:

-the Allies overestimated Germany
-the Allies were not able to find their own ass with both hands

Poland, Norway, France, Russia(1941) … in all these cases the German victory was in no small part the result of severe mistakes made by the Poles, Norwegians, French, English and Russians


The situation of Japan was similar:

-the Allies underestimated Japan
-the Allies were not able to find their own ass with both hands

The same as above. Once the Allies began to take the Japanese serious and took serious measures to stop them the Japanese were stopped.

We also need to remember that neither Germany nor Japan were on a mission to conquer the world. Germany wanted to defeat the USSR and be left alone by France and the British Empire while doing it and Japan wanted to dominate China.
 
I can't see Germany realistically winning WW2 in any way, let alone a total victory. It required excellent luck and an utterly incompetent enemy for Germany to defeat France (maybe for Japan's early victories in the pacific, but I'm not an expert there), and even when they got those two ingredients again and again they still couldn't defeat the USSR (or take Egypt). By 1943, when Stalin had finally stopped interfering with his generals and the Americans had reorganised after being licked at Kasserine pass, the war was over. Economics and logistics, gentlemen.

Really it depends on how you write alternate history. With a single POD and then a somewhat scientific attempt to determine what the effects of that POD would be, and thus whether it would result in an Axis victory, I suspect the answer is that no single POD would do. On the otherhand if you take a more fluid stance, I don't know, the universal butterfly school perhaps, and so can, within plausible limits, go about changing a great many things from the POD's date onwards despite there being no clear causal link (which means infinite disagreement regarding its probability if not plausibility), then I suspect it is possible. Well, barring any nonsense about successfully invading the USA, or really most of the Western Hemisphere, thats just ASB territory right there. Or atleast not without a really long running timeline which would presumerably have so many points of weakness that few would find it compelling.

It is occasionally tempting to sit down and try to draw up such a timeline (or indeed finally get around to constructing any timeline at all!) but I suspect the fact it would be extremely depressing is more than sufficient to prevent the urge.
 
Over-aggressive Soviets.
Early National Party victory.

Probably the hardest-to-achieve (and, actually, the most unnecessary) Axis member in that map is Portugal. It's a wank.

With over-aggressive Soviets. Any WW2 we see will be radically different.
 

Enji_Daimyo

Banned
Conditions for Axis victory

A better organised Germany-

Military-
Better operations

Keeping good officers-
Example no rommel suicide

Better long Range tactical

Focus on one front-
Tighter alliance with Japan

Avoid disasters-
Battle of Britian
Better use of V-1’s

Unified air forces designs

Joint operations with Japan
Russian land grab

Intelligence operations-
Better use of allies and removal of opposition

Assassinations or political removal–
Stalin, Churchhill, FDR
Italian mob support

Support US fascist

Economics
ties with Japan-
sell weapons and trade more
russian plundering
should give more to both empires for resources
trade with the USA heavily
tie them in a lot more economically


Hitler suceeds with first attempt-
Learns to plot better
When forms SS uses them more to remove enemies

Sets up more trade
Japan, russia, USA

Multiple health problems discovered earlier by plotters
Decide to replace with double
Competent men run Germany

Stalin killed during battle of staligrad by SS assassins
1000 paradroped into area
Japan due to increased alliance invades
Recieves Siberian oil and supplies

Covince Japanese to delay pearl harbor
Help control partisans
Allow time for SS aid to socialist movement in US
It only has to be partially successful
Might allow plotters to back him with a business friendly POTUS
Take out FDR
Sex scandal and expose connection with mob to public
Target his axeman

SS aid to mosley
Only partially successful
Might be enough to prevent churchill’s rise
Make mosley responsible for rise of economy
Selling british supplies to germany

Situation with war in Europe
Russia might only require one third of troops lost to hold down

Only problem is that it does come down to where and how the US is involved. I see Mexico being used to aide as distraction if it is used properly.
 

terence

Banned
Over-aggressive Soviets.
Early National Party victory.

Probably the hardest-to-achieve (and, actually, the most unnecessary) Axis member in that map is Portugal. It's a wank.

A Nat victory during WW2 would have meant a civil war, or at least a re-run of the 2nd Boer War--which the Nats would have lost.
 
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