Uber-Axis Total Victory: Is it possible?

There are hundreds of stories out there of every kind about an alternate WW2 that leaves a Reich-dominated Europe up to the Urals, a massive Japanese Empire in Asia and the Pacific, and an America occupied and/or annexed and/or balkanised by the Krauts and/or Japs. Examples include Man in the High Castle, In the Presence of Mine Enemies, etc.
But whenever a realistic scenario is tryed to work out here, the concessions are huge. Japan is almost always thrown under the bus, Russia is still very much alive behind their Ural or even Brest-Litvosk borders, Germany has no colonial empire and is struggling just as hard as it can to keep the puppet states to its West and the Lebensraum to its East in line, significant amounts of the British Empire/Commonwealth are controlled by a sort of Free British exile government, America is the dominant superpower, etc., etc., etc.
MY question is, how can we realistically achieve the former scenario, and how would it play out from there. Little details can vary (i.e. whether Italy is a Great Power in its own right or just a Germany wannabe, whether India or the Americas are under German or Japanese influence, etc) but the end goal must be, with a POD no earlier than Hitler's election, and with WW2 starting of in an acceptably recognizable way (America CAN remain isolationist if need be) have the world be split between the Nazi German and Imperial Japanese camps by 1975.
Discuss.
 
Erm...well, you'd need a very weakened US, for starters, with a POD perhaps reaching into the 1800s, or a depression that goes beyond a clusterfuck. Address that, and maybe we'll start to get something.
 
Erm...well, you'd need a very weakened US, for starters, with a POD perhaps reaching into the 1800s, or a depression that goes beyond a clusterfuck. Address that, and maybe we'll start to get something.

The main problem with the whole depression being worse is the fact that Political leaders do realize that a war will revitalize the most massive industrial power in the world. And they would take steps to be involved to make America great again.
 
Erm...well, you'd need a very weakened US, for starters, with a POD perhaps reaching into the 1800s, or a depression that goes beyond a clusterfuck. Address that, and maybe we'll start to get something.
Well, if America says isolationist enough, with a much different (re: worse) president than FDR, could it just possibly stay neutral, no Lend-Lease or Oil Embargoes and slower recovery from the Depression, giving Germany and Japan 20-30 to rebuild and consolidate after their wars?
 
The main problem with the whole depression being worse is the fact that Political leaders do realize that a war will revitalize the most massive industrial power in the world. And they would take steps to be involved to make America great again.

Perhaps an incompetant or short-sighed leadership in place then, to further add to the fuckup?

As for America staying neutral, you'll need quite a complacent administration and populance.
 

CalBear

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Simple answer is no.

Longer answer is not with a 1933 POD or not with the Axis as it existed. You need a POD that more or less eliminates the United States, a British America, a Dutch America, a French America, or a Spanish America. If North America is substantially controlled (say to the Ohio Valley) by any of the European powers that had colonies pre-independence or if it is an independent Country or three (as IOTL), North America is simply untouchable. Too much distance, too much material, too much potential.
 
Perhaps an incompetant or short-sighed leadership in place then, to further add to the fuckup?

As for America staying neutral, you'll need quite a complacent administration and populance.
Stronger KKK, stronger German-American Bund? Doesn't have to last forever, but it might make the general populace a bit more complacent about the current world war.
 
Perhaps an incompetant or short-sighed leadership in place then, to further add to the fuckup?

As for America staying neutral, you'll need quite a complacent administration and populance.

Mishandling of the depression leads to a civil war/communist uprising? Something like that might leave the US government/anti-communists and the British on the same side as the Nazis. Which would be incredibly dystopian, but not what is stipulated in the OP.
 
Mishandling of the depression leads to a civil war/communist uprising? Something like that might leave the US government/anti-communists and the British on the same side as the Nazis. Which would be incredibly dystopian, but not what is stipulated in the OP.

I don't know about Civil War, and given America's traditional aversion to leftist idealogies, definitely not a communist uprising, although large riots, maybe. A further increase in far-right presence in government, though, yes.
 

CalBear

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Well, if America says isolationist enough, with a much different (re: worse) president than FDR, could it just possibly stay neutral, no Lend-Lease or Oil Embargoes and slower recovery from the Depression, giving Germany and Japan 20-30 to rebuild and consolidate after their wars?


This is one of the common misconceptions regarding Isolationism. American isolationists were robust in their isolation. They had no problem with building a military sufficient to prevent any incursion INTO the Americas. The American flavor of isolationism was more "let Europe burn itself into a cinder" than any sort of "peace, love and understanding" movement. The size of the USN in the 1930s is a demonstrable proof of that.

A Nazi Europe would drive the U.S. to arm itself to the teeth (as happened IOTL with the Two Ocean Navy Act following the fall of France). A Japan that was trying to dominate the Pacific would also result in a robust response from Isolationists. Hawaii and Guam were AMERICAN SOIL, unlike the Philippines which Congress believed to be far more trouble than it was worth. They would have been defended.
 
Mishandling of the depression leads to a civil war/communist uprising? Something like that might leave the US government/anti-communists and the British on the same side as the Nazis. Which would be incredibly dystopian, but not what is stipulated in the OP.
Well, could it make them stay just neutral instead for the crisis, letting Germany take Europe piecemeal in the 40s with a Halifax-type guy in charge? Britain regains her balls in the 50s, only to be deleivered a knockout blow then, and a weakened America is taken out 20 years down the line.
 
Actually, come to think of it, a Germany that manages to avoid pissing off Britain and France too much and concentrating on the USSR may be a start. Some of the reasoning behind appeasement was the hope that the two nations would destroy each other. So while a totally Nazi-dominated continent may not be viable in this scenario, a longer-lasting Reich and a strong eastern Empire may be. A US in this scenario, fearful of communism, may even applaud Germany's activities, as some righties already did in OTL.
 
Actually, come to think of it, a Germany that manages to avoid pissing off Britain and France too much and concentrating on the USSR may be a start. Some of the reasoning behind appeasement was the hope that the two nations would destroy each other. So while a totally Nazi-dominated continent may not be viable in this scenario, a longer-lasting Reich and a strong eastern Empire may be. A US in this scenario, fearful of communism, may even applaud Germany's activities, as some righties already did in OTL.
Could they come back later on to take down Western Europe?
 
The 2 world wars were fought to ascertain if there were to be 2 or 3 superpowers. The USA and Russia were pretty much assured of a place and Germany was the only other possible contender. Germany may have become the 3rd superpower but there was no way it was powerful enough, even after becoming a superpower, to conquer either of the other 2.
 
vultan, the problem you have here is in order to get the outcome desired you would need cultural and/or political changes that would require a POD further back than what you have asked for. The best the germans under hitler could hope for was a trans-Eurasian empire with a decent sized navy used to keep the british and Americans at bay. The Japanese could never really win in China, it was too big and full of too many people for their ass backwards military doctrine to actually work. The Germans would never be able to actually pull off a trans-atlantic Sealion, even if they built up their own blue water capability, they would never be able to match the USN and RN at sea, either combined or individually. If they actually succeeded in establishing lebensraum their population would have been far too spread out and not nearly as industrialized enough to be able to match the US by the mid seventies. Their economy would have been bankrupted by the massive military effort required to achieve a european victory, and they would have been spread out far too much fighting massive partisan movements for yeas to come.

What you would really need would be a POD as far back as WWI in order to get the outcome you are looking for. Plain and simple.
 
This is just one of my 'gah!' moments. I just can't contain my anger when someone suggests a nazi victory means something out of a PKD novel. This is why i quit Nazi victory DBWIs lately. Here's why it's downright impossible

Nazi Germany would have had problems with insurgents in the East. This was because the Nazis sought to utterly wipe out the other nationalities. With CIA backing, they would wreak havoc, causing Germany to pur so much blood and treasure. It would be Vietnam on a much, much larger scale. The resulting bloodshed would reflect badly on Germany at home and abroad.

There's the economics. Nazi germany by the time of WW2 had accrued a lot of debt thanks to hitler's policy on deficit spending. After the war, despite whatever it could pillage and plunder, i can garuantee that Nazi Germany would ahve suffered a very bad economic crisis. It's a myth that war = good economy. Look at Iraq at the moment. The world's now in a recession.

Now the science. Everyone (including me at one time) assumed that "zomgs, teh nazis would get teh Von Braun Stations and rule the world." The von Braun Stations were nothing but a pipe dream. Besides, the Nazi Education system was dedicated only to brainwashing as there would ahve been wanting in the medical field of science within 20 years. There was also the issue of the Nazi Nuclear bomb, which would have taken years if not decades to complete without significant espionage in america.

Geopolitics. Because the United States of America's main ideology is not one tht claims they are the master race and will rule the world, they are more likely to get allies in Latin America, the Middle East and Asia. I can even see some African colonies seceding and being in the US SOI. The Americans have also got more to offer, with its main exports being Oil, cars and other consumables and raw materials. It would also be willing to co-operate more with the rest of the world and get them behind a united front against Nazism.

Then there's Japan. Japan could not have ruled from Chukotka to Xinjiang because it's downright impossible. The Japanese would have been outnumbered by numerous armies of technological parity. Ho Chi Minh's guerilla's would have eventually defeated them. There was also the issue of the far superior numbers and industrial/technological base of the United States/British commonwealth/Republic of China. So form the moment FDR ordered sanctions be imposed on Japan, their empire's days were numbered.
 
I think that Dick's POD of a FDR assination and a Garner Presidency is a good starting point is a start, but is not sufficient.
I would build on it by having the Garner Presdiency of 1933-1937 be a tremendous failure with the Depression deepening and strengthening. This leads to a Huey Long Presidency which is also a disaster and leads to a coup in 1939 by conservative/reactionary forces to head off a fraudulent/coerced 1940 reelection of Long with Douglas MacArthur as a figurehead leader.
Paralyzed by continuing figthing between isolationist/reactionary forces supporting the MacArthur regime and leftist/commuinist forces supporting a "Free USA" movement (supported by the USSR) the USA is not a factor in the European War of 1939-1940 which ends in a German victory leaving GB independent but Western and Central Europe under German control. Germany attacks the SU in 1941 and without GB or USA assistance the SU is defeated and partioned between Germany and Japan.
The MacArthur regime finally defeats its internal foes by the late 1940s but the economic problems of the Depression and the narrow, restrictive policies of the regime mean that it falls further a further behind the German Reich economically and scientifically.
Tensions in Southern Asia and South America fianlly result in an atomic (A Bombs only, no H Bombs) war in the late 1950s or early 1960s won by the German/Japan/Italy/Argentina Axis over the U.S The U.K. stays neutral and manages to maintain a shaky independence as the last "democracy".
ASB???
 
No. Nazi Germany could take on either one of Russia or the UK (both would eventually attack) if it managed to make one of them surrender or keep them out of the war altogether, but not anything more (and it would still be fucked up later anyway, courtesy of the USA, even if Japan would be cautious).
 
Uber-Axis total victory is only possible either with:

(1) An Axis China
OR
(2) An Axis Soviet Union
OR
(3) An Axis USA

Since (2) and (3) are extremely hard to achieve. 1 is only the most plausible of the options (and it's still quite implausible even then)
 
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