U.S victory in War of 1812

What would have happened if the Americans had won the war of 1812?

It's almost certain that what is Canada in OTL would have been annexed into the United States. The question is though, what would have happened afterward?

How would the territory of OTL Canada have been shaped?

Also, would the Americans have gained a craving for more territory through their victory in the War of 1812 and tried to over time, take over Latin America directly throughout the rest of the 19th century (AFTER the Spanish are kicked out by their colonists of course)?

How would the rest of the world be affected by America's victory in the War of 1812?
 
I assume he means a true victory, and not status quo ante bellum between the two...

Anyway, they could get Canada, I'm not really sure; however, I would advise to look at a map from the period - even if Britain were to give up Upper and Lower Canada, there's still a good bit of land for them to hold on to, especially since the northern borders didn't extended anywhere near as far north in Quebec as they do today.

As for the world, depends on what works the butterflies wrought onto the world really. Could prove interesting though, though I will admit this isn't my best area of American history.
 

MrP

Banned
There've been a few threads on this already - but I can't blame you for not finding them with the board's search engine! It's, ah, less than one would wish. ;)

But I've dug up a few previous considerations for ye. :)

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=115398

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=109588

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=108823

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=107509

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=99057

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=92571

The Americans did win the war of 1812 though... Is this a DBWI?

:confused:

You're lucky Thande and Landshark are abed. Run while you still have the chance. ;)
 
This would be winning in the not achieving your war aims, having your invasion force routed and having Swamp City DC burnt to the ground usage of the word?
We did get our initial war aims. It's just that word of the British concession didn't get here in time to prevent the war. Everything after was us just trying to not look stupid for starting a war with a guy who had agreed with us. ;)
 
The Americans did win the war of 1812 though... Is this a DBWI?

:confused:

*Bang!*

Now that that's dealt with, to the questions at hand. I, too, am not so convinced about this annexing Canada lark, but I do think that if Upper and Lower go, that's it for Rupert's land. All the points-of-entry are now in America. We could hand on to OTl Atlantic Canada, though.

This will play merry hell with the slavery issue.
 
We did get our initial war aims. It's just that word of the British concession didn't get here in time to prevent the war. Everything after was us just trying to not look stupid for starting a war with a guy who had agreed with us. ;)

I admit I'm no expert but I know of no British offer to back down over the US' stated casus belli for the War of 1812. Indeed, many (most?) believe that half of the US' stated reasons for war were just thrown in to further justify an attempt to annex Canada, and the UK certainly wasn't about to offer to cede that.

Are you sure you aren't thinking of the ARW?
 
While the USA did not grab Canada or force any territorial claims against Great Britain, it did force a lot of political concessions from the UK on the peace table--impressment of soldiers, supplying weapons to the natives, and grabbing part of Florida as well.

All things considered, the USA did win the war of 1812; the outcome left the USA without any real obstacles to going to the Pacific Ocean and set the stage for the rise of the USA.

Dubious. The war resulted in a long-term boon for America. Lost wars sometimes do, by forcing institutional change of whatever it may be. But America launched an aggressive, ill-justified war and, in military terms, got pretty chewed. That's loosing.

Walloping the UK at this point might be interesting. Could the UK wind up giving up any claim to the northern half of the Oregon Territory? Would the US-BNA border get rolled back to the St. Lawrence River? But I don't think either could work unless Napoleon wins at Waterloo and then the fighting in Europe begins anew.

Despite all of the hype of "USA Annexing Canada LOL LOL LOL", I don't think the United States would be able to do much more than simply rolling the BNA Border back. There was a dispute over the northern end of Maine; there was a dispute over the northern boundrary of the United States, and there was Oregon. Throw in a possibility of the US Army rolling over British North America and perhaps Britain will swallow a large territorial concession--but by no means everything.

The attached, in Red, is my idea of what the USA might be able to take in the case of a "Total Victory"--at the End of the day, the USA can only do this because the UK is stuck fighting France...

While I agree with your sentiment on annexationism, that map doesn't really compute. Without control of the St.Lawrence and the Ontario pointy-thing, the rest of Canada Proper isn't worth having.
 
The attached, in Red, is my idea of what the USA might be able to take in the case of a "Total Victory"--at the End of the day, the USA can only do this because the UK is stuck fighting France...

That map makes no sense at all - 'we won't take canada, just all the cultivated land and 95 percent of the population, and plonk down some utterly random borders out west!'
 
Duly Noted.
I'll delete the above post.

Maybe just Oregon and some stuff north of the 49th Parallel.

Those utterly random borders was me attempting to freehand the Oregon Territory and the bumpy border between the USA and BNA. I know there was a dispute on the northern border of Maine as well, so I'll stop to make up a map and just go with "Oregon, 49th Parallel AND US positions past it, and all of Oregon"
 
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Neroon

Banned
This will play merry hell with the slavery issue.
Good point. Exploring long-term effects of the U.S. annexing a part of Canada resulting in say, 2 more free states would have on the Slavery issue sounds indeed worthwhile.
I don't see much chance of them actually doing it though. If the US had been more successful than in OTL, the British could still have kicked them back out after Napoleon is dealt with and sent in Wellington to get serious.
 
I admit I'm no expert but I know of no British offer to back down over the US' stated casus belli for the War of 1812. Indeed, many (most?) believe that half of the US' stated reasons for war were just thrown in to further justify an attempt to annex Canada, and the UK certainly wasn't about to offer to cede that.

Are you sure you aren't thinking of the ARW?
I'll have to look through my books for the specifics but as I remember it the British decided to end impressment and the harassment of American flagged ships (the primary justification for the war) at approximately the same time as the declaration of war was making its way through the Congress.

Here is an Infallible Genocide quote that seems to be what I was thinking of.

Wikipedia said:
Repeal of the Orders in Council

The British made their greatest concession to the United States in June of 1812 just as the United States was declaring war. On June 16, 1812, two days before the United States declaration of war, Lord Castlereagh, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs announced in Parliament of the United Kingdom that the Order in Council would be suspended.[2]
On the very day that the Minister took his formal leave of the United States, June 23, 1812, a new British Government headed by Lord Liverpool provisionally repealed the Order in Council.[3]
Forty-one days after the United States Congress declared war, the word arrived in London on July 29, 1812. Two days later, July 31, 1812, the Ministry ordered its first counter-measures. It forbade English ships to sail except in convoys and restrained American ships in English ports. The Orders in Council had been repealed on June 23, 1812, but the ministers did not intend to take additional measures until they could learn the American reaction. Word of the repeal of the Orders did not reach President James Madison until August 12, 1812, some fifty days later. Even then he refused to halt hostilities because he did not know how Britain had reacted to the declaration of war. [4]

 
mmm, second time I've had to admit that I was lacking in my info in as many minutes. I must be cracking ;) but fair enough, I'll take that.

Still, I stand by my assertion that, short of intrigue and individuals backing him into a corner where he felt he had to back down, that the measures the British were proposing to concede would not have been enough to satisfy Madison and prevent the war, thus I dispute whether the British concessions would have "granted Madison his war aims". There's still the rather poignant issue of Canada, and the concerns over the British reaction to American expansion, and over the issue of America's trade with France. All of these points it would have been very hard for the two countries to resolve in a way which was actually satisfactory to both nations.
 
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