U.S. in European war or Europeans attack U.S. mainland pre-1900?

[Strategos' Risk]

Feels like John Paul Jones' raid on Whitehaven, two years after the Revolutionary War started, was the only time the U.S. and any European power directly fought each other before World War I.

How could we get a situation where the U.S. launches naval attacks on Britain during the War on 1812?

How could the Spanish do a sneak attack on the U.S. mainland during 1898?

What if the U.S. gets involved in kicking out Maximilian out of Mexico, and an angry Napoleon III orders a raid on the U.S.?

Okay there's the Trent Affair, but everyone knows about that.

On the flip side, how could the U.S. entangle its way into European affairs, and participate in a land war in the Old World?

In one of my favorite Victoria AARs, Estonianzulu's "The Footsteps of Illustrious Men", the Spanish assault and burn down Baltimore during the Spanish-American War. More about that here. And because it's an AAR, the U.S. also invades Sardinia over the latter's interference in Mexico. They also raid Calais in a war against the French.

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

Feels like John Paul Jones' raid on Whitehaven, two years after the Revolutionary War started, was the only time the U.S. and any European power directly fought each other before World War I.

Aside from the quasi-war with France in 1798, the War of 1812, and the Spanish-American War of 1898.

Here's a scenario. Seward becomes US President and Robert Toombs becomes CS President in 1861. Both wanted to avoid any actual armed clash. Seward evacuates US troops from Fort Sumter and Fort Pickens. With the Upper South and Border states neutral, there's nowhere for fighting to start.

Meanwhile, Seward picks a fight with Spain over its takeover of Santo Domingo, in the fatuous expectation that Southerners will rally to the (US) flag against a foreign adversary. (OTL he seriously proposed this to Lincoln.)

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Aside from the quasi-war with France in 1798, the War of 1812, and the Spanish-American War of 1898.

I meant that was like the only time the U.S. took the fight directly to the European country. And the British burning the White House in the War of 1812 was like the only time there was European action against the U.S. mainland. Spanish-American War was entirely fought in the colonies, doesn't count. The Quasi-War was- entirely naval based at sea?

Here's a scenario. Seward becomes US President and Robert Toombs becomes CS President in 1861. Both wanted to avoid any actual armed clash. Seward evacuates US troops from Fort Sumter and Fort Pickens. With the Upper South and Border states neutral, there's nowhere for fighting to start.

Meanwhile, Seward picks a fight with Spain over its takeover of Santo Domingo, in the fatuous expectation that Southerners will rally to the (US) flag against a foreign adversary. (OTL he seriously proposed this to Lincoln.)

That's an interesting one... but still not comparable to Spain raiding Baltimore or the U.S. invading Cadiz. That sort of direct mainland-a-mainland battling is what I'm looking for.

 

[Elfwine]

And the British burning the White House in the War of 1812 was like the only time there was European action against the U.S. mainland.

There were several campaigns in the West and around the Great Lakes in general, among other actions. How much involvement in the U.S. mainland are you looking for as far as this thread goes?

 

[Strategos' Risk]

There were several campaigns in the West. How much involvement in the U.S. mainland are you looking for as far as this thread goes?

Hitting major population centers at least. Core instead of the periphery. The War of 1812 was like the American Revolution 2 so I would be disinclined to include it, and you could always attribute some of the action to Canadians fighting Americans, not just the British.

 

[Elfwine]

Hitting major population centers at least. Core instead of the periphery. The War of 1812 was like the American Revolution 2 so I would be disinclined to include it, and you could always attribute some of the action to Canadians fighting Americans, not just the British.

I'm not sure why Jones's raid counts then, but if we're looking for core in this sense, we need a power that wants to fight the US/that the US wants to fight there - most of the areas of conflict between the US and a European power in the 19th century are going to be "periphery" for someone if not both sides, I think.

It would help to have more European wars that might even vaguely interest the US (as opposed to say, Russia and the Ottomans) between (roughly) 1860 and 1900 though.

 

[kernel]

Kaiser Wilheim II had three plans to invade American coastal cities in the advent of war. Perhaps the Venezuela crisis in 1903 escalates into a full-out war between America on one side and Britain/Germany on the other, leading to bombadrments and landings on the American coast to force them to sue for peace.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

I'm not sure why Jones's raid counts then,

Because it's so wild it's almost ASB. An upstart colony sailing all the way across the ocean to attack the mother country on its mainland? Also because it was so sui generis. Can't believe the Americans never did it again. Would've been funny if the USN captured the Canaries during the Spanish-American War.

It would help to have more European wars that might even vaguely interest the US (as opposed to say, Russia and the Ottomans) between (roughly) 1860 and 1900 though.

I just figured maybe there's some way to entangle the Americans into Europe in the same way they got involved with trade in China, leading to American participation in the Eight-Powers Army during the Boxer Rebellion. Even limited American participation in a European land war might count.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

So I guess the prospect of direct conflict (mainland vs. mainland action) is likely impossible between the U.S. and European nations before WWI? I guess if they never even got into a war with Canada, 1812 aside, it's even less likely to happen. Certainly they weren't as weak as Latin American nations to get directly intervened against by Europeans, yet not strong enough to meddle in the Old World.

 

[Doesntmatter]

Kaiser Wilheim II had three plans to invade American coastal cities in the advent of war. Perhaps the Venezuela crisis in 1903 escalates into a full-out war between America on one side and Britain/Germany on the other, leading to bombadrments and landings on the American coast to force them to sue for peace.

Two of those plans were hysterically bad and lead to a bunch of Germans starving to death in New Jersey

 

[Doesntmatter]

I think for this to work you need the US to have a European Ally to base in and the enemy needs an American ally to base from.

Maybe someone with a small Navy allies the Chileans and raids the Pacific Coast while the US allies someone in Europe raid. That way you could have a realistic scenario where each side has strong enough navy locally to raid the other without one side completely curbstomping them before they land.

Needless to say the 1800s have gone thoroughly awry for any of this to come close to happening. Sounds like a bad game of Vic 2 now that I say it outloud.

 

[JohnBull]

If we're talking about raids, I guess many Britain, Germany (in this case, post-1900 is easier) and even France could launch attacks, even against population centres. Full scale invasion, no.

The opposite, I guess the US could manage sneaky raids, but nothing more than that.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

For all it was bugfuck crazy and flat out impossible, the American landing in Ireland of a division sized expeditionary force to stir up an Irish revolt was kinda cool in Britannia's Fist.

Really though I don't think that pre-1900 the US had the power projection or even latent military strength to seriously consider invading or land attacking any European power. Post-1865 nobody was gonna seriously think about taking on the US on its own turf from Europe.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Maybe someone with a small Navy allies the Chileans and raids the Pacific Coast while the US allies someone in Europe raid. That way you could have a realistic scenario where each side has strong enough navy locally to raid the other without one side completely curbstomping them before they land.

The U.S. vs. Chile situation is quite promising.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/what-if-america’s-cold-war…-with-chile-goes-hot-1891.519631

For all it was bugfuck crazy and flat out impossible, the American landing in Ireland of a division sized expeditionary force to stir up an Irish revolt was kinda cool in Britannia's Fist.

Shame they didn't try it in the ARW or in 1812.

Really though I don't think that pre-1900 the US had the power projection or even latent military strength to seriously consider invading or land attacking any European power.

But John Paul Jones and the Raid on Whitehaven!

 

[wcv215]

An upstart colony sailing all the way across the ocean to attack the mother country on its mainland?

They sailed from France though.

 

[Elfwine]

It's not that hard to get a US naval officer with more self-confidence than is good for him trying to raid Britain in the ARW or War of 1812, especially if doing it from a French port in the first (the second runs into the issue of running a blockade).

It's not all that easy for the US to assemble a division sized expeditionary force to invade Canada without that going as the OTL attempts went, though. Trying it with Ireland sounds like a recipe for a catastrophe for the Americans, and doesn't really serve US interests.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Shame they didn't try it in the ARW or in 1812.

I mean, they tried one major expedition against New Ireland, and it didn't end well.

But John Paul Jones and the Raid on Whitehaven!

Well, sure. Those kinds of little raids are exciting but not really big strategic issues. I could see something like that happening and getting a lot of news in the papers, but that's one bold and brave captain. The cost of outfitting an expedition across the Atlantic by the US would be far outweighed by the almost certain destruction awaiting it.

 

[Wendell]

The U.S. gets really dragged into the Napoleonic Wars against France. Or, in 1889, the Samoan Crisis breaks down into a shooting war and the Germans make a futile landing on the Eastern Seaboard somewhere.

 

[Vabasion]

Or alternatively European powers decide to act in concert and intervene into the US civil war.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Or alternatively European powers decide to act in concert and intervene into the US civil war.

Well even one intervening could cause a world of hurt. Though, realistically that's probably the last time a European power could really threaten the US if the US decided to put its mind to the matter.

While during the OTL Virgnius Affair, the US did discover its naval capacity had dwindled to essentially nothing, so the 1870s could see a European power make things unpleasant. The expansion in the 1880s and 1890s would mean that taking the fight to the US in any meaningful sense might be essentially impossible however.