U.S. Gives Ho Chi Minh an Audience

ggarner57

It's pretty well known that Ho Chi Minh was eager to cooperate with the United States after WWII, even naming his army the "Viet-American Army" as they marched on Hanoi. He at one point asked Truman for an audience and urged American investment into Vietnam.

So would would happen if Truman decided to meet with him, and work on an at least nominally independent Vietnam? How much will he have to twist the French's arm to do so, and what would happen to Vietnam?
 

GeographyDude

If Truman could take a deep breath and view a loosey-goosey communist government as putting pressure on the Soviet Union as much as anything else . . . . .

How about a genuinely independent Vietnam?

We work on legitimate trade deals, give Vietnam a solid bonafide deal on oil development, invite Vietnamese students to study engineering and business at American universities. And the key detail might be realize that if we extend scholarships to older students with life experience, they can more quickly step into managerial positions.

Of course the Soviet Union will also be extending trade deals t Vietnam, and that's okay.
 

ggarner57

GeographyDude said:
If Truman could take a deep breath and view a loosey-goosey communist government as putting pressure on the Soviet Union as much as anything else . . . . .

How about a genuinely independent Vietnam?

We work on legitimate trade deals, give Vietnam a solid bonafide deal on oil development, invite Vietnamese students to study engineering and business at American universities. And the key detail might be realize that if we extend scholarships to older students with life experience, they can more quickly step into managerial positions.

Of course the Soviet Union will also be extending trade deals t Vietnam, and that's okay.
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I don'f figure that communism will be as dominant within an independent Vietnam that has some trade with the United States, Uncle Ho was much more of a nationalist than a communist after all. I think that there would be a visible socialist movement, but the coming of American and Western investment would mitigate that somewhat.
 

GeographyDude

Yes, something like Tito and Yugoslavia. Except really emphasize that ethnic minorities, religious minorities, etc, will be treated with equally rights!

And we've debated whether Ho Chi was more of a communist or more of a nationalist. I say, as long as he's at least 30% a nationalist, that's enough of a half-assed type of communism that things might still work out pretty good. In fact, if the U.S. and Soviet Union are competing on who can give the country better trade deals, things might work out very well for Vietnam.

But . . . with France on the UN Security Council, we've put ourselves in a trap.
 
okmangeez

okmangeez

SlyDessertFox said:
Throw in a Truman presidency in 52 and so no US support for British meddling in Iran, and the US is well on its way to thoroughly pissing off both Britain and France.
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In exchange, we don't have a mess of Iran or Vietnam. Which directly influences the public's views and beliefs of government.

Would this TL possibly lead to a more "democratic" supportive USA? A USA willing to negotiate and talk it out instead of stepping in militarily, indirectly and directly, everywhere?
 

fhaessig

Admiral Beez said:
First this, and then Suez under Ike, France will not be a fan of the USA.
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ACtually, this might be viewed as enough of a brtrayal that the communists are elected to power in 1948 in France (they were the party with the most votes in OTL).

So USA traded a communist Vietnam for a communist France. Then snowball COmmunist Italy (also a very likely possibility OTL) and possibly Germany and Benelux is likely to get communist also (all via legal ways) and the only USA ally on the european mainland are fascist Spain and Portugual
 
Tom Colton

Tom Colton

okmangeez said:
Would this TL possibly lead to a more "democratic" supportive USA? A USA willing to negotiate and talk it out instead of stepping in militarily, indirectly and directly, everywhere?
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If the 1920's are any indication, this would be a reversal of historical precedent if anything.
 
Asami

Asami

Banned
fhaessig said:
ACtually, this might be viewed as enough of a brtrayal that the communists are elected to power in 1948 in France (they were the party with the most votes in OTL).

So USA traded a communist Vietnam for a communist France. Then snowball COmmunist Italy (also a very likely possibility OTL) and possibly Germany and Benelux is likely to get communist also (all via legal ways) and the only USA ally on the european mainland are fascist Spain and Portugual
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I don't see that "domino chain" happening -- the CIA is still going to have their muddy bootprints everywhere, like they did OTL.
 

TRH

Sakura_F said:
I don't see that "domino chain" happening -- the CIA is still going to have their muddy bootprints everywhere, like they did OTL.
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Certainly in Germany that would not be allowed, and so long as they allow our presence, it doesn't matter too much what the French get up to in our rear. Wonder what the implications for European integration would be, though.
 

fhaessig

Sakura_F said:
I don't see that "domino chain" happening -- the CIA is still going to have their muddy bootprints everywhere, like they did OTL.
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Where do you see it stopping if France become communist? Italy is a given (it only narrowly avoided it OTL) and so is the French occupation sector of Germany. IMO, they key is Germany. If they go communist, there is no way benelux does not. The reverse is not true, however.

But the prize of reunification will be very tempting to the Germans, with communist parts at both east and west of the country. So I think within 2 or 3 decades after the war (i.e. in the 60s or 70s), communist will be in power in Germany.

Of course, all these will be Eurocommunists, which will not take orders from Moscow, but I doubt the US will see any difference.
 

TRH

fhaessig said:
Where do you see it stopping if France become communist? Italy is a given (it only narrowly avoided it OTL) and so is the French occupation sector of Germany. IMO, they key is Germany. If they go communist, there is no way benelux does not. The reverse is not true, however.

But the prize of reunification will be very tempting to the Germans, with communist parts at both east and west of the country. So I think within 2 or 3 decades after the war (i.e. in the 60s or 70s), communist will be in power in Germany.

Of course, all these will be Eurocommunists, which will not take orders from Moscow, but I doubt the US will see any difference.
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That all assumes the US would allow West Germany to choose communism, which seems naive. And if the French allowed it in their occupation zone, I can only see that ending in them losing their occupation zone. And would reunification still be so tempting when everything they hear about East Germany (from refugees, mind) tells them they've got it much better as is?
 

Carl Schwamberger

Conversly French, Italian, German, & other west European Communists would come to fear Stalin & the Red Army. If the US can accoadate a quasi Communist in Ho, then hypothetically we might see a NATO of Communist states. How a communist France would deal with the trappings of empire is a interesting question.
 
Cryostorm

Cryostorm

Monthly Donor
If this had happened then Vietnam may rank with South Korea and Taiwan economically and be an even more solid ally in the modern Asian arena. Also as one pointed out with the lack of fighting to hold on to Vietnam France may try much harder to hold Algeria and may even succeed.
 
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