U Boats used for terrorism

ben0628

Banned
Idea: To slow down US involvement in WW2 after war was already declared, Hitler gets the wild idea to load say ten U-Boats with elite German infantry. These U-Boats are deployed to the east coast of the United States where they unload the German infantry in isolated, unpatrolled areas. Armed with lmgs, smgs, some bombs, and a crap ton of ammo, the Germans split up into small groups, move inland, and begin a war of terror against the United States.

After several days, and thousands of deaths, the German soldiers are caught/killed. In response to this crisis, could Operation Torch be postponed and US soldiers are instead deployed all along the East coast? Would there be enough German hatred in the country to start putting hundreds of thousands of them in internment camps? What other impacts would there have been?
 
The Germans actually tried something similar but it did not work as the Americans knew the spies were coming because the British were reading all the German communications.
 

Deleted member 1487

Idea: To slow down US involvement in WW2 after war was already declared, Hitler gets the wild idea to load say ten U-Boats with elite German infantry. These U-Boats are deployed to the east coast of the United States where they unload the German infantry in isolated, unpatrolled areas. Armed with lmgs, smgs, some bombs, and a crap ton of ammo, the Germans split up into small groups, move inland, and begin a war of terror against the United States.

After several days, and thousands of deaths, the German soldiers are caught/killed. In response to this crisis, could Operation Torch be postponed and US soldiers are instead deployed all along the East coast? Would there be enough German hatred in the country to start putting hundreds of thousands of them in internment camps? What other impacts would there have been?
You mean the attempt IOTL?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pastorius
Their mission was to stage sabotage attacks on American economic targets: hydroelectric plants at Niagara Falls; the Aluminum Company of America's plants in Illinois, Tennessee, and New York; locks on the Ohio River near Louisville, Kentucky; the Horseshoe Curve, a crucial railroad pass near Altoona, Pennsylvania, as well as the Pennsylvania Railroad's repair shops at Altoona;[5] a cryolite plant in Philadelphia; Hell Gate Bridge in New York; and Pennsylvania Station in Newark, New Jersey. The agents were also instructed to spread a wave of terror by planting explosives on bridges, railroad stations, water facilities, Jewish-owned businesses, and public places. They were given counterfeit birth certificates, Social Security Cards, draft deferment cards, nearly $175,000 in American money, and driver's licenses, and put aboard two U-boats to land on the east coast of the U.S.[4]
Before the mission began, it was in danger of being compromised, as George Dasch, head of the team, left sensitive documents behind on a train, and one of the agents when drunk announced to patrons at a bar in Paris that he was a secret agent.[6]
http://listverse.com/2013/06/12/10-nazi-spies-and-their-espionage-plots-in-america/

Or the earlier spy ring that was broken up?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duquesne_Spy_Ring

If you want Pastorius to work you'd need German intelligence to do a much better job in terms of selecting loyal agents. It would also help if the Duquesne ring isn't broken up too. Really the only reason the Germans failed in their spy missions was bad agent selection; the US counter intelligence efforts were non-existent and the Germans, had they actually been better at their craft, could have done DAMAGE with their plots.
Even if they just did a handful of their missions, like the Niagra Falls plant and a couple of the Aluminum plants they would have seriously damaged the US war economy as it was just gearing up.

So if we assume that things go according to plan due to better agent selection the Duquesne spy ring is still in place come 1942, not having been betrayed by Siebold, and the Pastorius agents come in, again not being betrayed by several of their own guys within the mission. Given the total lack of FBI awareness of German efforts without those betrayals and their pretty much non-existent counter intelligence capabilities the German agents could have run wild doing major damage for quite a long time. There was no NSA, the OSS was just being formed, and the FBI had only a few thousand agents nationally that were mostly focused on fighting Communists.

I'd say that they could have easily postponed the Torch landings due to US fears that German agents have found out about it, as they were enormously cautious in their efforts IOTL. The level of damage at home could be quite extensive actually if the plans for Pastorius actually got off the ground. The US would be in a massive panic and I really could see the FBI turning to the Mafia to help them, especially the Jewish mob. IOTL the Jewish Mafia pretty much destroyed the German-American Bund as an organization:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...es-mob-s-fight-against-nazis-during-wwii.html
http://spectator.org/articles/37005/operation-underworld

Frankly the Nazi agents would wish they were captured and swiftly executed by the US government first in that case given some of the stories I've read about Mafia 'justice'.
But in the meantime if they did start their mission, they'd have months free to wreak havoc and paralyze a lot of US decision making and war preparations until they are run to ground.

The Germans actually tried something similar but it did not work as the Americans knew the spies were coming because the British were reading all the German communications.
actually no, the Brits had no idea. The mission failed because several agents promptly turned themselves in. It actually took them a while to convince the FBI that they were German agents in fact, as the FBI really didn't care, as they were focused on fighting Communists rather than Nazis.
 
Idea: To slow down US involvement in WW2 after war was already declared, Hitler gets the wild idea to load say ten U-Boats with elite German infantry. These U-Boats are deployed to the east coast of the United States where they unload the German infantry in isolated, unpatrolled areas. Armed with lmgs, smgs, some bombs, and a crap ton of ammo, the Germans split up into small groups, move inland, and begin a war of terror against the United States.

After several days, and thousands of deaths, the German soldiers are caught/killed. In response to this crisis, could Operation Torch be postponed and US soldiers are instead deployed all along the East coast? Would there be enough German hatred in the country to start putting hundreds of thousands of them in internment camps? What other impacts would there have been?

I wonder why putting regular infantry on a U-Boot should work. Why not having some Germans, or who ever, already living in the USA make their way to such sort of actions all by themselves, only motivated by propaganda? That is way more simple and way more effective. You even do not give them arms, as they can be self sufficient and using whatever they can get by themselves. Isis and Al Quaida worked and work simmilarly, which is the biggest problem in combatting terrorism.
 

ben0628

Banned
You mean the attempt IOTL?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pastorius
http://listverse.com/2013/06/12/10-nazi-spies-and-their-espionage-plots-in-america/

Or the earlier spy ring that was broken up?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duquesne_Spy_Ring

If you want Pastorius to work you'd need German intelligence to do a much better job in terms of selecting loyal agents. It would also help if the Duquesne ring isn't broken up too. Really the only reason the Germans failed in their spy missions was bad agent selection; the US counter intelligence efforts were non-existent and the Germans, had they actually been better at their craft, could have done DAMAGE with their plots.
Even if they just did a handful of their missions, like the Niagra Falls plant and a couple of the Aluminum plants they would have seriously damaged the US war economy as it was just gearing up.

So if we assume that things go according to plan due to better agent selection the Duquesne spy ring is still in place come 1942, not having been betrayed by Siebold, and the Pastorius agents come in, again not being betrayed by several of their own guys within the mission. Given the total lack of FBI awareness of German efforts without those betrayals and their pretty much non-existent counter intelligence capabilities the German agents could have run wild doing major damage for quite a long time. There was no NSA, the OSS was just being formed, and the FBI had only a few thousand agents nationally that were mostly focused on fighting Communists.

I'd say that they could have easily postponed the Torch landings due to US fears that German agents have found out about it, as they were enormously cautious in their efforts IOTL. The level of damage at home could be quite extensive actually if the plans for Pastorius actually got off the ground. The US would be in a massive panic and I really could see the FBI turning to the Mafia to help them, especially the Jewish mob. IOTL the Jewish Mafia pretty much destroyed the German-American Bund as an organization:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...es-mob-s-fight-against-nazis-during-wwii.html
http://spectator.org/articles/37005/operation-underworld

Frankly the Nazi agents would wish they were captured and swiftly executed by the US government first in that case given some of the stories I've read about Mafia 'justice'.
But in the meantime if they did start their mission, they'd have months free to wreak havoc and paralyze a lot of US decision making and war preparations until they are run to ground.


actually no, the Brits had no idea. The mission failed because several agents promptly turned themselves in. It actually took them a while to convince the FBI that they were German agents in fact, as the FBI really didn't care, as they were focused on fighting Communists rather than Nazis.

I was thinking more along the lines of highly trained Germany soldiers going on a major killing spree. The idea of having to recruit agents and train them to sabotage major targets seems overly complicated and easy to fail.

It would be more successful I believe for a few dozen heavily armed, well disciplined German soldiers hijacking some American cars, drive around the east coast from town to town, shooting up grocery store, putting grenades in mailboxes, wiping out police stations, maybe drive into dc and storm the FBI building or something. Softer targets are much less likely to fail, and its easier to scare the civilian population into a panic when you actually hit the civilian population.
 
Idea: To slow down US involvement in WW2 after war was already declared, Hitler gets the wild idea to load say ten U-Boats with elite German infantry. These U-Boats are deployed to the east coast of the United States where they unload the German infantry in isolated, unpatrolled areas. Armed with lmgs, smgs, some bombs, and a crap ton of ammo, the Germans split up into small groups, move inland, and begin a war of terror against the United States.

After several days, and thousands of deaths, the German soldiers are caught/killed. In response to this crisis, could Operation Torch be postponed and US soldiers are instead deployed all along the East coast? Would there be enough German hatred in the country to start putting hundreds of thousands of them in internment camps? What other impacts would there have been?

Volunteers at recruitment centres in the US Skyrocket's (as do the sale of war bonds) and the last vestiges of isolationism in the US dies.

Socially US 'Germans' begin to be treated the same way as US 'Japanese' citizens where and become 2nd class citizens in their own country - many are sent to interment camps.

So while Paranoia is increased in the US - I would say that such an event would not derail torch. If anything the opposite!

As for 'vital' war industries being attacked as some have suggested - how long would such damage close said plants (or the parts that were damaged)?

Not indefinitely at any rate and the US is rather good at building stuff.

I would suspect given the nations resources that they could repair a damaged factory or plant even faster than the Germans could repair bomb damaged factory's / plants.

Ultimately such an act would sit in the American psyche and the desire to be revenged on Germany would burn just as much as it did for the attack on Pearl Harbour.
 

ben0628

Banned
Socially US 'Germans' begin to be treated the same way as US 'Japanese' citizens where and become 2nd class citizens in their own country - many are sent to interment camps.

How many though? If you could get the majority of them put in internment camps, wouldn't that lower both the amount of people able to join the army and the amount of people able to work in factories?
 

Deleted member 1487

Socially US 'Germans' begin to be treated the same way as US 'Japanese' citizens where and become 2nd class citizens in their own country - many are sent to interment camps.
.
Good luck with that given that German Americans were about 40% of the US population at the time (including people of partial German heritage). German born immigrants were already being rounded up for detention centers, some spending until 1950 in them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_German_Americans
 
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...... You even do not give them arms, as they can be self sufficient and using whatever they can get by themselves. Isis and Al Quaida worked and work simmilarly, which is the biggest problem in combatting terrorism.[/QUOTE

...............................................

Don't get distracted by ISIS propaganda. ISIS, ISIL, Daesh enjoy massive infusions of cash from Muslim "charities."
In the short run, ISIS funds its operations by selling stolen antiquities, wheat, oil, etc. to international black markets.
In the mid-term ISIS funds operations by taxing the bejezus out of local farmers, merchants and minorities (e.g. long-term Jewish residents of Syria).
In the long run ISIS hopes to finance its operations by exporting oil. Too bad that NATO and Russia bombed ISIS petroleum shipments into smouldering craters.

OTL German terrorists could steal some dynamite and small arms from American industries, but that would only be enough for a short-term campaign.
 
How many though? If you could get the majority of them put in internment camps, wouldn't that lower both the amount of people able to join the army and the amount of people able to work in factories?

US Japanese did serve in the US military with distinction even while their families were in such camps - while this might result in less 'German Americans' joining up I suspect that the reduction would be less than the increase such an attack would bring.

And I suspect that Hitler's Nephew William Hitler would still join the US Navy ;)

Good luck with that given that German Americans were about 40% of the US population at the time (including people of partial German heritage). German born immigrants were already being rounded up for detention centers, some spending until 1950 in them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_German_Americans

I would imagine that more than the OTL 11,000 German - mostly German Nationals living in the US - would be rounded up and more scrutiny would be made of the remaining German born or those from German communities particularly those living near or involved in sensitive work.

But I doubt that unless someone from such a community had known pro-nazi sympathies then they would be much more at risk of being detained.

However I did suspect that there would be more anti-German feelings among the US Population and this may result in certain 'abuses' particularly for those Germans recently immigrated to the US not living in a German Community such as those suffered by Japanese Communities.

But certainly I don't think that the mass majority of that 40% would be at risk.
 
US Japanese did serve in the US military with distinction even while their families were in such camps - while this might result in less 'German Americans' joining up I suspect that the reduction would be less than the increase such an attack would bring.

And I suspect that Hitler's Nephew William Hitler would still join the US Navy ;)



I would imagine that more than the OTL 11,000 German - mostly German Nationals living in the US - would be rounded up and more scrutiny would be made of the remaining German born or those from German communities particularly those living near or involved in sensitive work.

But I doubt that unless someone from such a community had known pro-nazi sympathies then they would be much more at risk of being detained.

However I did suspect that there would be more anti-German feelings among the US Population and this may result in certain 'abuses' particularly for those Germans recently immigrated to the US not living in a German Community such as those suffered by Japanese Communities.

But certainly I don't think that the mass majority of that 40% would be at risk.

WW1 was the war where German-Americans where not trusted
 
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