Tziyonut Chai!: The Rise of Meir Kahane

DaHound22

Banned
If the Arab armies are rampaging at will through Tel Aviv, there will be very little the Americans can do other than threaten to nuke Cairo and Damascus.

The Arabs then respond by demanding an unlimited right of return, full citizenship, and new Knesset elections which effectively end Israel as a Jewish homeland. Possession is nine tenths of the law, they say.

In comparison, the Americans could well believe that a Versailles-style Israel is preferable, with the understanding that American "peacekeepers" will be in Israel for the long term.

Actually you make a really great point. Also I was thinking about it; maybe a Versailles-style treaty might make it easier to get Kahane the kind of power he'd need?

Say the Arabs force this treaty on Israel. That means that Americas strongest ally in a largely Soviet-allied area is rendered almost useless. Maybe to regain dominance in the region, America may get desperate enough to fund a Kahane coup that kicks the Arab inspectors out and give Israel a relative amount of power back? I mean America funding international coups is certainly within the realm of possibility as we seem to do it quite often
 
Actually you make a really great point. Also I was thinking about it; maybe a Versailles-style treaty might make it easier to get Kahane the kind of power he'd need?
Hitler was able to start his war because Britain and France refused to confront him when he continuously crossed lines set by the treaty. As late as 1938, if just Czechoslovakia resisted the Munich agreement, Hitler would likely have been shot by his generals. So if the Arabs are stringently enforcing the al-Quds Treaty, there is no chance of Kahane able to start a rampage.

Say the Arabs force this treaty on Israel. That means that Americas strongest ally in a largely Soviet-allied area is rendered almost useless. Maybe to regain dominance in the region, America may get desperate enough to fund a Kahane coup that kicks the Arab inspectors out and give Israel a relative amount of power back? I mean America funding international coups is certainly within the realm of possibility as we seem to do it quite often
I really, really, really don't see Ford or any US President provoking a nuclear confrontation with the Soviets. Supporting sunglass-wearing generals in South American basketcases is one thing. Supporting dangerous nutcases in the most dangerous part of the world is another. In any case, the strongest US ally in the region is Turkey, which will presumably be receiving lots and lots of shiny toys.

OTOH, it's plausible that Kahane would first join a neo-Zionist coalition which wins an Israeli election, then it uses its position to make increasingly outrageous demands, making Israel ungovernable. At the same time it forms a mass movement consisting of disgruntled IDF veterans who hold increasingly intimidating parades. Then, at some point, they take over (maybe by storming the Knesset and forcing the government to pass an Enabling Act or something). No US interference necessary.

And that's the scary part: the US is in an horrible position of being obliged to defend a territory governed by fascists who are bent on provoking a Third World War with apocalyptic dimensions. :eek:

If that were to occur, the US *could* manage tensions by refusing to allow Israel to import the vast raw materials required for rearmament, and refusing to provide more money than required to keep the lights on. For a while, at least.
 

DaHound22

Banned
Hitler was able to start his war because Britain and France refused to confront him when he continuously crossed lines set by the treaty. As late as 1938, if just Czechoslovakia resisted the Munich agreement, Hitler would likely have been shot by his generals. So if the Arabs are stringently enforcing the al-Quds Treaty, there is no chance of Kahane able to start a rampage.


I really, really, really don't see Ford or any US President provoking a nuclear confrontation with the Soviets. Supporting sunglass-wearing generals in South American basketcases is one thing. Supporting dangerous nutcases in the most dangerous part of the world is another. In any case, the strongest US ally in the region is Turkey, which will presumably be receiving lots and lots of shiny toys.

OTOH, it's plausible that Kahane would first join a neo-Zionist coalition which wins an Israeli election, then it uses its position to make increasingly outrageous demands, making Israel ungovernable. At the same time it forms a mass movement consisting of disgruntled IDF veterans who hold increasingly intimidating parades. Then, at some point, they take over (maybe by storming the Knesset and forcing the government to pass an Enabling Act or something). No US interference necessary.

And that's the scary part: the US is in an horrible position of being obliged to defend a territory governed by fascists who are bent on provoking a Third World War with apocalyptic dimensions. :eek:

If that were to occur, the US *could* manage tensions by refusing to allow Israel to import the vast raw materials required for rearmament, and refusing to provide more money than required to keep the lights on. For a while, at least.

See your last point is my biggest problem. In order for Kahane to actually have a regime that somewhat resembles what he wants, he needs the US to play ball.

What I was thinking is with Israel in a position of weakness, Kahane can play on the peoples fears and portray the current administration as weak. His Kach Party does very well in the 77 elections, enough to start influencing Israeli politics to the point of provoking the Arabs to attack again around the 1980 elections. Kahane piggybacks off of the new war, enough to get a Kach Party majority in Knesset and become PM, then from there he could start passing laws that give him more power overtime. Obviously id be going into much greater detail than this but that's why I've set it up like this so far
 
First, it's Tsiyonut Haya, and not Tsiyonut Hai. Hebrew has grammatical gender. Abstract nouns ending in -ut are always feminine. Hence, haya and not hai.

Second, in the 1970s, Kahane was not a major force, and nobody would want to turn to him. There already was a strong right-wing political force opposed to the status quo: Likud. Nobody needs the far right until the center-right is perceived to be part of the rot, and at the time, Begin was perceived as an outsider.

Third, Kahane was Orthodox. Israelis don't elect minorities like that. Lieberman hit a glass ceiling because he's Russian, and it's likely the same will happen to Kahlon if he sticks around long enough to be as important. And this is a Russian and a Mizrahi, both secular. Religious Jews are more ghettoized. Bennett hit may represent a hip, mainstreamed version of Orthodoxy, with a tech entrepreneur background, a secular right-hand woman in Ayelet Shaked, and an openly right-wing economist agenda, but right-wing Likud voters still perceive him as lipstick on the rabbinical pig. The Jewish Home's base of support remains Orthodox, just as Israel Beitenu's remains Russian. This is 2015; in the 1980s, it was a lot more segregated.
 

DaHound22

Banned
May 4th, 1975-A Spark in Nazareth

-Told from the POV of 22 year old Yom Kippur vet Moshe Kohen (a fictional resident of Nazareth)

-Nazareth is one of the hardest hit cities in Israel. Many in the city are jobless, homeless, or orphaned, as Nazareth was rampaged by the Syrians on their way to Jerusalem. Many are refugees from Jerusalem, still homeless after being forced from there homes by the Arabs. The crime rate is rising as more and more youth get involved with organized crime, drug sales and prostitution in order to make money as the city's poverty rate climbs higher. But more concerning than anything is the near constant state of violence in Nazareth and the rest of the Galilee between Arab citizens and Jewish citizens. On May 3rd, 1975, just one day before Kahane addresses the struggling city, a synagogue is attacked by Palestinian nationalists, killing 18 Jews. As the level of violence rises, the people of Nazareth become increasingly hateful towards each other, divided on grounds of Jew or Arab. On May 4th, 1975, Rabbi Meir Kahane enters the city with little intention to calm the storm. Went he enters Nazareth, he is a little known radical. But as he leaves, Kahane is rising to become the face of a disgruntled Israel.

The streets of Nazareth are ablaze with excitement unseen sense the war. The words of Rav Kahane are ringing soundly in every ear of every Jew in the city. And what is a fearful sight it is! I pray HaShem will keep these people from tearing into each other like dogs. That damned Kahane, his speech is war! "They are invaders!" Kahane shouts, referring to the Arabs. "They do nothing but taake take take! Hebron, where Abraham was buried before they were any Arabs! Bethlehem, where David was born, before their were the so-called Palestinians! Jerusalem, they sit and pray in the Temple Mount, OUR TEMPLE MOUNT! And yet Jews aren't even allowed to be there! They stole from us! They stole from us and our leaders let them. Our leaders let them because they are weak! Because they have no national pride! Or because they fear 'what would America think'. Well I don't care what America thinks. They have 22, now 23 countries, yet still they fight and kill Jews in the Galilee! Hear in Nazareth, just yesterday, a synagogue is bombed! And Israel's leader do? Nothing! Because they are weak! I am not weak, I have no intention of being weak, I have no intention of having 'peace' if it means the Arabs have my land! Jerusalem is ours! Hebron is ours! Bethlehem and Jericho belong to us! Why are we fighting them in the Galilee? We should be kicking them out! Out of the Galilee, out of Judea and Samaria, and out of the Land of Israel"...
Not 2 hours after Kahane's speech,a Palestinian man was murdered in cold blood. Beaten to death. I understand my countrymen, we're tired of the bloodshed! Tired of constantly mourning our fellow Jews... Kahane speaks of strength! A kind of strength we've never had, a real strength, free of Arab terrorists and western control. But I know this can only lead to bloodshed. HaShem, I pray you give guidance to your children in Israel! And guidance to me, I so desperately need it. We so desperately need it.
 
You realize Nazareth is almost entirely Arab, right? In fact, it's Israel's largest Arab city.
 

DaHound22

Banned
You realize Nazareth is almost entirely Arab, right? In fact, it's Israel's largest Arab city.

That's the point. The entire Galilee has a majority of Arabs, making it that much more likely that they'd (the Arabs) become nationalists and violent in the event of the creation of Palestine. They don't want to be a part of Israel, and why should they? They ARE the majority. And there's still about 80,000 Jews in Nazareth, plus those around the Galilee. Plus 650,000 refugees, some of them are bound to go to the Galilee. If they had a majority of Jews, there wouldn't be as much violence. Arafat's smarter than to attack where he's weak
 
i understand that you need a major, MAJOR p.o.d to get an extremist like Kahane in charge, but...

-October 6th, 1973-November 12th, 1973

-Result: Decisive Arab Victory

-Combatants: Egypt, Syria, PLO and Jordan (PLO, Jordan join midway in the conflict) VS. Israel

-Casualties: 15,000 Syrian, 15,000 Egyptian, 5,000 Jordanian, 5,000 PLO
(40,000 Arabs total)
60,000 Israeli military, 40,000 Israeli civilians (100,000 Israeli total)

In Detail: The Egyptian-Syrian joint attack on Israel on Yom Kippur, Judaism's holiest day, October 6th, 1973, is even more successful then IOTL. The Israeli army is caught completely off guard, and within just 2 days, the Egyptians have destroyed the Bar Lev line, all Israeli tanks in the region (300, compared to just over 150 OTL) and moved their entire attacking force into the Sinai. The Israeli struggle continues in the Golan, and within just two days, the Syrians have taken the entire southern half of the Golan and began moving their force over the Jordan River and into the Galilee, Israel proper (NOTE: OTL, Syria actually had the opportunity to do this, but, for unknown reasons, remained cautious and did not invade Israel). With the Israelis fending off a serious invasion from Syria, Egyptian president Anwar Sadat begins moving his protective umbrella, and thus his army, further into the Sinai. He also convinces the PLO to fight with him, promising them their land back on the event of an Arab victory. By October 12th, the Egyptians have invaded the Negev and the Jordanian army has joined the Arab force, rampaging through the West Bank. Israel, already spreading it's forces to thin, is powerless to stop the PLO and Egyptians from rampaging Western, Central and Southern Israel, and Israel's cities are thrown into chaos. By October 18th, Jordanian and Syrian armies begin besieging Israel, and US aid appears to be too little, too late. As reports of rape, torture, beatings and other atrocities against its citizens continue to pour in, and with it's army helpless and Capitol surrounded, Israel

bruh

once the Arabs start surrounding Israeli cities, let alone sacking them, we gotta be in Icarus Falls territory. Never Again means Never Again and what the hell else did you build Those Things for?

lol @ being a nuclear power and letting third world armies trash your metropolises. I can imagine a drunken exchange with Kissinger where ITTL Nixon calls them pussies. "Who'd a thunk the Israelis would be so bitch-made, Henry? My condolences."
 

DaHound22

Banned
i understand that you need a major, MAJOR p.o.d to get an extremist like Kahane in charge, but...



bruh

once the Arabs start surrounding Israeli cities, let alone sacking them, we gotta be in Icarus Falls territory. Never Again means Never Again and what the hell else did you build Those Things for?

lol @ being a nuclear power and letting third world armies trash your metropolises. I can imagine a drunken exchange with Kissinger where ITTL Nixon calls them pussies. "Who'd a thunk the Israelis would be so bitch-made, Henry? My condolences."

Icarus falls? I'm not familiar
 
Icarus falls? I'm not familiar

to make a long dystopian story short, Israel has its back to the wall after being framed for nuking Mecca and pulls out the Sampson Option, complete with Aswan High Dam destruction and all the megadeath that implies.

and yeah i browsed the King Kahane TL since that first reply and i'm pretty sure this is the same guy lol. C'mon bro. Cover your tracks better than that.
 

DaHound22

Banned
to make a long dystopian story short, Israel has its back to the wall after being framed for nuking Mecca and pulls out the Sampson Option, complete with Aswan High Dam destruction and all the megadeath that implies.

and yeah i browsed the King Kahane TL since that first reply and i'm pretty sure this is the same guy lol. C'mon bro. Cover your tracks better than that.

1. Sounds interesting. Is it in this sight?

2. Believe what you will, the way I see it I won't be able to change your mind unless I do so with a better story.

3. I see what you mean. I don't think Israel losing that bad is ASB however, though it may be unlikely. But a Kahane regime in General is kinda unlikely
 
That's the point. The entire Galilee has a majority of Arabs, making it that much more likely that they'd (the Arabs) become nationalists and violent in the event of the creation of Palestine. They don't want to be a part of Israel, and why should they? They ARE the majority.

So, they rose up against Israel... but Syria sacked Nazareth anyway? O-kay.

And there's still about 80,000 Jews in Nazareth

No, there aren't. The entire population of Nazareth today is 75,000, of which 99.9% is Christian or Muslim. Nor was there some white flight out of Nazareth recently - it has not had a significant Jewish population in centuries, if not millennia. In the 1970s, Nazareth would've been somewhat smaller, but not much (the bulk of its growth occurred in the first few decades after independence), and it still would've been about 100% Arab. The suburbs were smaller, but this also includes the Jewish suburbs that Israel built, i.e. Upper Nazareth (currently at 40,000, but much smaller 40 years ago).
 

DaHound22

Banned
So, they rose up against Israel... but Syria sacked Nazareth anyway? O-kay.



No, there aren't. The entire population of Nazareth today is 75,000, of which 99.9% is Christian or Muslim. Nor was there some white flight out of Nazareth recently - it has not had a significant Jewish population in centuries, if not millennia. In the 1970s, Nazareth would've been somewhat smaller, but not much (the bulk of its growth occurred in the first few decades after independence), and it still would've been about 100% Arab. The suburbs were smaller, but this also includes the Jewish suburbs that Israel built, i.e. Upper Nazareth (currently at 40,000, but much smaller 40 years ago).

According to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics as of 2009 the Nazareth metro area has 210,000 people living in it, of which 85,000 (41%) are Jews. The population of this area has remained like that pretty consistently sense the 1960s with minor rises. Add in a bare minimum of 650,000 refugees scattered across Israel and I'm sure we can get a pretty substantial Jewish population. Anyways

They are rising up against Israel currently (ATL), not at the same time Syria and Israel are at war. And it's not even in full-fledged revolt yet, things are just getting heated. Why would they not hit Israel's largest city in the area on their way to Jerusalem? Besides what the hell does Syria care? They were fighting with Palestinians around this time in OTL, in Lebanon. Assad murdered HIS OWN people in mass numbers between 79 and 82. Now all the sudden he cares about his fellow Arabs?
 
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According to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics as of 2009 the Nazareth metro area has 210,000 people living in it, of which 85,000 (41%) are Jews. The population of this area has remained like that pretty consistently sense the 1960s with minor rises. Add in a bare minimum of 650,000 refugees scattered across Israel and I'm sure we can get a pretty substantial Jewish population. Anyways

Okay, first, the metro area is not the same as Nazareth. People in Israel identify with their municipalities and not their urban areas; for example, about 0% of the population of Ramat Gan identifies as Tel Avivi, even though the two cities are demographically similar and have contiguous urban development, which is not true of most Nazareth suburbs.

Second, the Galilee's Jewish population percentage has been increasing since independence - it's national policy to Judaize the Galilee and Negev, which is why Nazareth Illit was built in the first place.

They are rising up against Israel currently (ATL), not at the same time Syria and Israel are at war. And it's not even in full-fledged revolt yet, things are just getting heated. Why would they not hit Israel's largest city in the area on their way to Jerusalem? Besides what the hell does Syria care? They were fighting with Palestinians around this time in OTL, in Lebanon. Assad murdered HIS OWN people in mass numbers between 79 and 82. Now all the sudden he cares about his fellow Arabs?

Why not? First, because riots are a local affair. OTL's Israel has an impressive number of race riots from both sides that we can figure out what larger-scale rioting would look like: road blocking, stone throwing, Molotov cocktails, and violence against people on the other side who happen to be in the area, but not large-scale trashing of 100% Arab cities, and no roving gangs making their way to segregated communities on the other side to cause mayhem. (Benzi Gupstein et al beat up Arabs in West Jerusalem and around the Old City, and stay away from the vast majority of East Jerusalem.)

And second... okay, so Assad has massacred Palestinians during his war with Israel, but Palestinians are still engaging in massive race rioting against Jews. This, despite the fact that
 

DaHound22

Banned
Okay, first, the metro area is not the same as Nazareth. People in Israel identify with their municipalities and not their urban areas; for example, about 0% of the population of Ramat Gan identifies as Tel Avivi, even though the two cities are demographically similar and have contiguous urban development, which is not true of most Nazareth suburbs.

Second, the Galilee's Jewish population percentage has been increasing since independence - it's national policy to Judaize the Galilee and Negev, which is why Nazareth Illit was built in the first place.



Why not? First, because riots are a local affair. OTL's Israel has an impressive number of race riots from both sides that we can figure out what larger-scale rioting would look like: road blocking, stone throwing, Molotov cocktails, and violence against people on the other side who happen to be in the area, but not large-scale trashing of 100% Arab cities, and no roving gangs making their way to segregated communities on the other side to cause mayhem. (Benzi Gupstein et al beat up Arabs in West Jerusalem and around the Old City, and stay away from the vast majority of East Jerusalem.)

And second... okay, so Assad has massacred Palestinians during his war with Israel, but Palestinians are still engaging in massive race rioting against Jews. This, despite the fact that

1. In America, you factor in the metro area, so I did.

2. You yourself said early that the majority of population growth in Nazareth was early on, pre-70s. Now you see 41% of them are Jews and all the sudden all the Jews came recently? Be consistent.

3. What's your point?

4. You do realize that Palestine is not Syria right?
 
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