Typical CSA Victory

While I oft disagree with 67th on a lot of things, he is correct regarding the South's food production ability. Rioting occurred not because there was not enough food produced but because it wasn't getting to the cities where it was needed.

There are numerous reasons for this...
1. Poor transportation - most Southern railways ran north-south through the coastal tidewaters to facilitate the shipping of cash crops to the ports. They did not run inland and no major Southern city, besides Baltimore and New Orleans, were ever really rail or transportation hubs. This made it very difficult to get the food that was grown to the proper markets as the war took its toll.

2. Hoarding - many people and even some state governments refused to export large amounts of excess food, thus leaving noon-food producing regions to suffer.

3. Union Occupation - as Union forces occupied areas of the Confederacy they denied the resources within to other unoccupied portions.

4. Hyperinflation - later in the war the Confederate dollar became nearly worthless and the Confederacy lacked access to hard currency like gold and silver. This made it extremely difficult to pay for what little food did make it to the cities.

But despite this as Alan T. Nolan asserts and cites several other historians as well, "No Confederate army lost a major engagement because of lack of arms, munitions or other essential supplies." (The Myth of the Lost Cause and Civil War History, page 23.)

Benjamin

P.S. I'll refrain from reigniting the iron mill vs. steel mill debate and just point interested parties to any number of web pages regarding the Bessemer process or William Kelly. First Bessemer Mill in US - Detroit 1855. First Bessemer/Kelly Process mill in Pennsylvania - 1857 (Cambria Iron Mill in Johnstown).
 
I'm trying to figure out a way to deal with the political situation in America and Dixie. In the Union, the Copperheads (Peace Democrats) won the 1864 election with Clement L. Valladigham. Due to the fact that their pro-peace platform was the only reason they won, though, the Democrats disappear from American politics, leaving the Republicans. Given what times the storyline is entering, I made the new conflict in government capitalism vs. communism, with an "Egalitarian Party" that's socialist. I'm researching politicians, but I'm not sure who to have as the 1868 PotUS. Both follow the ideology that slavery is wrong, so following the 1868 election slavery is banned in the USA. That eliminates Democrat politicians like Seymour.

In Dixie, the Democratic Party is very strong, and will probably continue to be strong until they fuck something up. I'm not sure to have as the other party; "Industrialists", or "Imperialists", or the Southern equivalent of Egalitarians?
 
I need my CSA to survive. I'd also like for it to become a superpower. Not a Dixiewank, of course, just a strong nation. However, their economy was shit.

For example, they had no industry, and apparently no desire to industrialize. I came up with the idea of the Federal government realizing that the system wouldn't work and offering money and land to start up factories, mines, and other such businesses, which would encourage people to invest in industry.

As for slaves, I doesn't feel "right" having a CSA without slaves, but I know that they would have had problems with the Western world if they continued to have slavery while the OTTOMANS didn't. I figure I'll have chattel slavery banned in the very early 1900s, but with a different institution that is more or less slavery under a different name.
 
I currently have my scenario going like this.

After Confederate victory, the Intervention succeeds in Mexico. The CSA purchases the northern bits, and starts grooming Mexico into being their client state, not France's. A small number of tycoons bring about industrialization, starting with "Jack Ostrowski", an Unknown who builds up the railroad system and then manufacturing, refusing to use slaves for moral reasons.

In the 80s the CSA conquers the Isthmus with almost no trouble, moving on to Colombia. The Spanish-American War occurs, resulting in the USA annexing Cuba rather than having it as a client state (to compete with the CSA). Once Ford comes along, slaves are freed due to being unnecessary and hurting foreign relations.

WWI ends up a Central Powers victory, and the CSA and USA are both involved (USA = Central, CSA = Entente). With the exception of the CSA, the Entente Powers end up in a shitty situation, mirroring the post-Central -powers IRL. France and England go "Resotrav" (Nazi) and Russia goes Communist.

WWII starts with French aggression. The CSA and USA have switched factions by now. The result of the war is Entente defeat, but the Ottomans and Austro-Hungarians no longer exist.
 
I've chosen to just use the history book style of writing, with the level of description being brief descriptions of battles and more focus on the broad picture.

So far, it's like this.

At Antietam, the Union's equivalent of SO191 is recovered by two Dixie soldiers. The CSA puts a smackdown on the I and XII Corps, so McClellan retreats early, falling back to Williamsport. The Confederates set up fortifications around Williamsport in the night (November 3), surrounding the city and causing many casualties from artillery bombardment. After a while, Lee orders Jackson to allow McClellan to retreat, figuring that as long as there is a chance of survival, the Union soldiers will fight much harder and more aggressively, possibly causing disastrous Confederate casualties. Lee moves on to Hagerstown, aiming for Philadelphia next. Lincoln chooses not to use the Emancipation Proclamation, and is horrified when he finds that McClellan doesn't even intend to chase Lee down, so he removes him from command and replaces him with Burnside, giving Burnside the orders to delay the occupation of Philadelphia at all costs until more soldiers can be fielded.

Later on, a successful Vicksburg Campaign, second invasion of Arizona Territory, and a massive New York rebellion will help the Confederacy to victory.
 
How does Antietam become a disaster for the Union? The CSA had no means to win the battle, the best case for it was OTL where it managed to stave off another battle conducted by Army of Potomac subordinates with McClellan well away from the actual battle. :confused:
 
Did I say it was a disaster?:confused: Antietam only hurts certain corps of the Union Army, most of them didn't even see combat. Williamsport is worse, but it's still not a disaster. No, that's all the Confederacy dancing around until something big happens in Pennsylvania....

And no, it will not happen at Gettysburg.
 
Did I say it was a disaster?:confused: Antietam only hurts certain corps of the Union Army, most of them didn't even see combat. Williamsport is worse, but it's still not a disaster. No, that's all the Confederacy dancing around until something big happens in Pennsylvania....

And no, it will not happen at Gettysburg.

You said it's a disastrous loss for the Union. In this specific case the Army of Northern Virginia's chosen a battle with one line of retreat and in a perfect position for the Union to break their lines which McClellan actually did twice in one day in that battle.

The POD itself is fine, setting it on Antietam Creek.....eh, not so much. Now, the Army of Northern Virginia setting up a Second Bull Run somewhere north of the Potomac and doing that to those three Corps is more likely, though no Civil War battle is going to see the ANV walk away from such a fight with a lot of soldiers left.
 
Realpolitik people, realpoliitk. In fact, wasn't John Henry Temple (rightfully) paranoid about America?

I've since dropped the part about the British declaring war, it's too sealion for the POD. The South has to make do with the blockade strangling them. Although, victory in the west does mean that they have more food, so there won't be as bad riots.
 
I've a question. Outside the two most famous field armies (the Army of Northern Virginia and the Army of the Potomac), how much have you studied the forces in various other parts of the eastern theater (and elsewhere)?

If you're having Lee push for capturing something like Philadelphia, the fact that while most troops are in the Army of the Potomac doesn't mean the other areas are undefended - and then there's the militia/emergency troops, which can hold a city's fortifications (if there any worth noting) if nothing else.
 

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Remember how the WWII alliances worked out. It's possible to finesse that just as it was to have Stalin working with Winston Churchill. ;)
Yes, my point is since CSA will be dependent on UK for their security post war, and the UK would obviously use this influence to try to get the CSA to abolish slavery, while slavery was the whole reason for the CSA's existence. I just can't see it working.
 
I've a question. Outside the two most famous field armies (the Army of Northern Virginia and the Army of the Potomac), how much have you studied the forces in various other parts of the eastern theater (and elsewhere)?

If you're having Lee push for capturing something like Philadelphia, the fact that while most troops are in the Army of the Potomac doesn't mean the other areas are undefended - and then there's the militia/emergency troops, which can hold a city's fortifications (if there any worth noting) if nothing else.

There's the Army of Virginia. By the end of the Maryland Campaign, they've been renamed/reassigned the Army of the Potomac, and the previous Army of the Potomac is now functioning as the Army of the Susquehanna, waiting for more reinforcements from elsewhere. Lee intends to fortify in Western Maryland and hold it as long as possible (better the war be in Union than Confederate land, and it takes pressure off of Richmond).

I'm writing about the Chickamauga Campaign write now. It won't necessarily be a victory, but in the end the Confederacy will have control of Vicksburg, and maybe other important cities. They will probably never gain Tennessee back.
 
Don't forget about any troops not included in that AoVA/Army of the Potomac - 4th and 7th Corps come to mind.

Not sure either amount to much, but they are there.

And how the hey is the Confederacy securing Vicksburg but not Tennessee?
 
Seems to me the only way the CSA could win is to realize, early on, that to win it needs to outlast the USA's will to prosecute the war. It can not hope to achieve victory short of ASBs solely through force of arms. This probably necessitates not having Jeff Davis anywhere near the reins of power and probably also necessitates getting rid of most of their generals. The first big thing such leadership would want to do is to do what amounts to a martial fillibuster as long as possible to avoid shots being fired. During this time the sentiment that 'there's nothing in the South worth the lives of our sons' needs to be encouraged. Lincoln is going to follow the MO of democracies where the elite desperately wants a war but the population is less enthusiastic---passive aggressively attempt to provoke the other side repeatedly into firing the first shots. The South needs to frustrate this as long as is practical. While there is no blockade, they also need to import what they'll need to fight a long defensive conflict. Even a few more months can make a big difference. In addition, they need to avoid invading KY---one of the stupidest things done by the CSA.
Tactically and strategically, they need to fight very defensively, offering battle only when their position is a lot stronger than the Union's. This means a lot of trading space for time, trenches, and other breastworks. The way to win for the CSA is for Lincoln to lose the election while they are not obviously on their last legs. Having the war start in earnest later in his term than OTL helps, as does making him wait and wait over KY.
As for lucky breaks they could get---perhaps a lucky intelligence operation might bag a significant chunk of a California gold shipment. Problems with such shipments from CA have caused massive recessions/depressions in other periods of US history---the gold deposits of CA were huge as regards the economic stability of the US.
If the CSA were lucky enough to have someone like Jeff Davis as the Secretary of State for the USA to botch the Trent affair horridly, they might get the British to disrespect the USA blockade as being a 'paper blockade' longer than OTL---the determination of when you've got sufficient blockading ships to not be considered a paper blockade has always been a bit nebulous---but any sort of actual confrontation is really unlikely, unless Davis possesses Lincoln too.
 
Don't forget about any troops not included in that AoVA/Army of the Potomac - 4th and 7th Corps come to mind.

Not sure either amount to much, but they are there.

And how the hey is the Confederacy securing Vicksburg but not Tennessee?

Unfortunately, I don't know any place where I can easily find a list of all the military units in both armies and their locations.

I originally pretty much ignored the Western Front until it became important to me, so I assumed that they were driven from Tennessee but continued to hold Mississippi.
I started writing about a successful Confederate Chickamuaga Campaign, but then I realized that I misread the date and it actually said 1863. I found that the campaign currently being fought was the Heartland Offensive, so I assumed similar/nigh-identical events for the first few days after the PoD, and then a Confederate victory at Perrysville. By the end of the Kentucky Campaign, there will either by Dixie soldiers on the banks of the Ohio, or the Army of the Cumberland will be pushed out of the CSA. The Confederate strategy as a whole is changing from "defend what we have" to "seize buffer states, raid cities". I doubt the Army of Tennessee will ever successfully invade Ohio, though.
 
Unfortunately, I don't know any place where I can easily find a list of all the military units in both armies and their locations.

Just figure out what areas you're looking at and people like me with time to kill will search the Official Records.

I originally pretty much ignored the Western Front until it became important to me, so I assumed that they were driven from Tennessee but continued to hold Mississippi.
I started writing about a successful Confederate Chickamuaga Campaign, but then I realized that I misread the date and it actually said 1863. I found that the campaign currently being fought was the Heartland Offensive, so I assumed similar/nigh-identical events for the first few days after the PoD, and then a Confederate victory at Perrysville. By the end of the Kentucky Campaign, there will either by Dixie soldiers on the banks of the Ohio, or the Army of the Cumberland will be pushed out of the CSA. The Confederate strategy as a whole is changing from "defend what we have" to "seize buffer states, raid cities". I doubt the Army of Tennessee will ever successfully invade Ohio, though.
It would be lucky beyond measure to hold Kentucky longer than enough to inflict an interesting 1862 election crisis. Even if Perryville goes right, the AoT is too weak.
 
Well, I'm not sure. I just have a general idea how the war goes, and am making it up as I go along.

I do know that there's no way in Hell that the CSA will ever penetrate the border through more than one state.
The Confederates do not need to hold Kentucky for the duration of the war, that's just in the meanwhile. It's likely that they'll get beaten back into Tennessee after a while.

I need to know the units that existed in Kentucky, Pennsylvania/Maryland/West Virginia, and Missouri.
 
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