Two Suns Shall Set: A 20th-Century TL Without Nazis

[AeroTheZealousOne]

I know this might come off as a silly question to be asking considering the butterflies of TTL, but are Elvis, Bob Dylan, and the Beatles still a thing ITTL? If not musicians, are they still born?

There are usually no silly questions unless I've answered one already, but I'm never irritated in answering them. In any case, Bob Dylan is still born into this world and is still known as Robert Zimmerman. Whether or not he gets into music or not I haven't done enough research to draw exact butterflies, but a definitive answer for this will be stated a little later on. Half the Beatles are never born (McCartney and Harrison), but John Lennon and Ringo Starr live, yet there will be no Beatles nor British Invasion ITTL.

As for Elvis, I mentioned him in my latest update but I'll be happy to quote that part in case you don't want to sift through it to find it:

Elvis Aaron Presley still has a rockin' career going for him in this world! And it's not just rock, the blues are his forte as well. Listen to the songs, and find yourself unable to help falling in love with them. Unfortunately, his death in a 1962 place accident on his way to perform in Omaha will prevent him from forwarding his career, yet it won't prevent him from becoming a cherished musical pioneer. Some people refuse to believe that he is dead and gone, even by the turn of the millennium.

 

[TheDetailer]

There are usually no silly questions unless I've answered one already, but I'm never irritated in answering them. In any case, Bob Dylan is still born into this world and is still known as Robert Zimmerman. Whether or not he gets into music or not I haven't done enough research to draw exact butterflies, but a definitive answer for this will be stated a little later on. Half the Beatles are never born (McCartney and Harrison), but John Lennon and Ringo Starr live, yet there will be no Beatles nor British Invasion ITTL.

As for Elvis, I mentioned him in my latest update but I'll be happy to quote that part in case you don't want to sift through it to find it:

Thanks!

 

[Alpha-King98760]

I’ve finished reading this marvellous TL and I love it! I am now patiently awaiting for more.

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

I’ve finished reading this marvellous TL and I love it! I am now patiently awaiting for more.

Thank you, and welcome aboard! Same to you, @TheDetailer!

Not sure when I'll work on the next update and begin Part 2 (Chapter 11) in earnest, but in the meantime I'll still be answering any and all questions that are bothering each and every one of you, and I promise teasers over the course of this week!

 

[dakkafex]

Caught up over the course of this evening, and this TL is pretty cool so far. No-Hitler scenarios are always interesting for me, and I like the direction you've taken this.

While you've mentioned European colonialism holding on a few decades longer, what political trends are going on in Africa right now? OTL you had a lot of postwar discontent in French and British colonies driven by African soldiers returning home from fighting in the Second World War, is there a similar phenomenon occurring in the 60s TTL? More specifically, has Ethiopia maintained its independence, or did the Italian invasion and occupation still occur?
Has the apartheid system or something like it been instituted in South Africa? Restriction of the franchise among nonwhites postdates the POD, no Cold War would weaken the red-baiting that occurred against the ANC and allied groups by the National Party and its allies, and a less-threatened Britain in TTL's Second World War would probably reduce the rationing and inflation that occurred in South Africa as it kept Britain supplied at the expense of the homefront. Then again, Afrikaner nationalism long predates the POD, and there hasn't been much to dampen it TTL, and a more prolonged and prosperous 40s and 50s without serious discriminatory legislation are going to lead to a growing Black, Coloured, and Indian middle class, and the ensuing resentment and paranoia (and fear of a loss of cheap labor) on the part of rural and owner-class Afrikaners.

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

Caught up over the course of this evening, and this TL is pretty cool so far. No-Hitler scenarios are always interesting for me, and I like the direction you've taken this.

Thanks, and welcome aboard! I decided to write a "Hitler never comes to power" while throwing in plenty of the "not sunshine and rainbows/be careful what you wish for" elements, a few of which may play prominence in future chapters. No major spoilers, though!

While you've mentioned European colonialism holding on a few decades longer, what political trends are going on in Africa right now? OTL you had a lot of postwar discontent in French and British colonies driven by African soldiers returning home from fighting in the Second World War, is there a similar phenomenon occurring in the 60s TTL? More specifically, has Ethiopia maintained its independence, or did the Italian invasion and occupation still occur?

Ethiopia's fallen under the Italian grip, as per OTL. I should probably mention the underground resistance movements full of leftists, monarchists, nationalists and republicans alike who just want Italy gone, and most teamwork is teeth-clenched, so any revolts that occur in this coming decade will be small in size, mostly uncoordinated, and simply more of a nuisance to local garrisons than anything else.

Come the middle of the '70s, an entirely different series of circumstances will end up freeing both Ethiopia and Libya from the Italian yolk. It won't be bloodless, but it's better than long and grueling wars of independence.

Has the apartheid system or something like it been instituted in South Africa? Restriction of the franchise among nonwhites postdates the POD, no Cold War would weaken the red-baiting that occurred against the ANC and allied groups by the National Party and its allies, and a less-threatened Britain in TTL's Second World War would probably reduce the rationing and inflation that occurred in South Africa as it kept Britain supplied at the expense of the homefront. Then again, Afrikaner nationalism long predates the POD, and there hasn't been much to dampen it TTL, and a more prolonged and prosperous 40s and 50s without serious discriminatory legislation are going to lead to a growing Black, Coloured, and Indian middle class, and the ensuing resentment and paranoia (and fear of a loss of cheap labor) on the part of rural and owner-class Afrikaners.

South Africa's incumbent government is, as of 1960, a surprisingly moderate centrist one with leanings to the right. Not entirely an expert on South African history to give you names of politicians in power right now, but I can safely state that the Afrikaners are going to be causing plenty of trouble for South Africa in the coming years and decades.

There is a rising middle class of colored/coloured (sorry, I'm a bloody Yank) or otherwise non-white people in South Africa, much to the disappointment of the politicians who make up a sizeable minority in government who are just waiting for their chance to implement their "perfect" apartheid state.

 

[Ruperto Pesto]

Hi, I found your TL quite interesting indeed!, and I have some questions for you…first…how about FIFA WORLD CUP in that timeline…several teams quoted themselves as their best team ever..(Argentina in late ‘30s and ‘40s…Austria with their “wunderteam”, which was disbanded due Anchluss in OTL, etc), how it could be plausible ITTL?

I see you posted Perón was president as well ITTL, but Perón was a consecuence of all that disturbing time OTL…when the 1943 coup in Argentina took place, with the GOU (grupo de oficiales unidos), who was far from being alliedophile…that was a consecuence of all that pressure suffered by Argentina, by the US, to enter the war, declaring Argentina was a Nazi sanctuary, etc…all that pressure enhardened the inner Argentina position, even afected the previous “angofriendly” democratic governments…and both sides in Argentina were anticommunists

But here ITTL there was not such thing…There were some political figures, as Buenos Aires governor Manuel Fresco, or UCR leader Amadeo Sabattini, who had almost the same banners or social political aims than Perón, but perhaps, less fascist, and less cult of personality. So, how Peron managed to rise to power the same?...

I know this is a peripherical thing, but…is a nice doubt

Greetings!

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

Ah, welcome aboard! Let me address Peron first:

I see you posted Perón was president as well ITTL, but Perón was a consecuence of all that disturbing time OTL…when the 1943 coup in Argentina took place, with the GOU (grupo de oficiales unidos), who was far from being alliedophile…that was a consecuence of all that pressure suffered by Argentina, by the US, to enter the war, declaring Argentina was a Nazi sanctuary, etc…all that pressure enhardened the inner Argentina position, even afected the previous “angofriendly” democratic governments…and both sides in Argentina were anticommunists

But here ITTL there was not such thing…There were some political figures, as Buenos Aires governor Manuel Fresco, or UCR leader Amadeo Sabattini, who had almost the same banners or social political aims than Perón, but perhaps, less fascist, and less cult of personality. So, how Peron managed to rise to power the same?...

This was a critical research error on my part, assuming that the '43 coup still went as OTL. (I've decided that this should be butterflied for reasons obvious to the premise of this TL.) When I get time tonight I will go back and retcon this detail, then I will fix the relevant updates.

…first…how about FIFA WORLD CUP in that timeline…several teams quoted themselves as their best team ever..(Argentina in late ‘30s and ‘40s…Austria with their “wunderteam”, which was disbanded due Anchluss in OTL, etc), how it could be plausible ITTL?

Hmm... I don't follow soccer fútbol much and I haven't done a lot of research here, but before I go back and add World Cup winners to my pop culture updates, I will say that Austria sees quite a bit of continued success during this time period up until around 1950-ish.

I apologise for not being overly helpful, but you did point out a large oversight and gave me a little bit more content to work on. Thank you, though!


(EDIT: Went back and added TTL's FIFA World Cup winning teams, and also retconned the mentions of Juan Peron. He's now a retired army general and retired in his home city of Buenos Aires as an unremarkable historical figure.)

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

Here are some quotes from the world of Two Suns Shall Set, to give you a feel of what to expect in the future. Make of these what you will:

---


“When I saw the world from orbit, I saw for the first time in my life the beauty of Planet Earth from afar. As humans, we should work to protect and make more beautiful our planet, rather than destroy it!”


-Toyohiro Akiyama, the first person in space, 1972 [1]


---

“With the turmoil that has engulfed Asia during these past years...I cannot, in good conscience, continue to serve you, the people of the United States of America beyond this current term, and that is why I officially announce that I will not seek, nor will I accept, any nomination for a term of my own as your President. I am incredibly pleased to have had the opportunity to serve all of you to the best of my ability, even with the sad course of events that propelled me to the highest office in the land.

-U.S. President Fred M. Rogers [2], in a televised address broadcast on the evening of February 29, 1988


---


“War itself is the enemy of the human race. The infamous events that negatively changed the face of Asia forever...have proven this to us even more so than the outcome of the Second World War."

-Howard Zinn [3]


---


“The solution to the question of Northern Ireland, while neither an easy one nor one that appeased everyone, was enough to end most of the fighting and prevent further violent confrontations between Protestants and Catholics, Unionists and Republicans. The solution of federalizing Ireland was not a clear one at first...”


-an excerpt from a miscellaneous history textbook printed sometime in the 1980s


---


“‘...He [Yezhov] was not a good man. Far from it. And everyone around me, my friends, knew it.’ If you were to ask any Russian that lived through the Civil War about said conflict in a peaceable and respectful manner, one thing they would do is point their fingers at Nikolai Yezhov, the man who oversaw the unraveling of the Soviet Union until his replacement by Beria, followed soon by Beria’s subsequent ouster from the Kremlin by war hero and general Georgy Zhukov. It’s common knowledge that this War, a multi-party affair, was where the worst of the nation was shown off for the world to see on their television screens at least one night a week.”

-from the five-part documentary series Russia in the 20th Century, broadcasted sometime in the late 1990s *


---


“Well, as my father once said, ‘more men die of jealousy than of cancer’. So perhaps I’ll make it through this after all, won’t I?”

-former U.S. President Joseph P. Kennedy Jr. confirming rumors of a positive diagnosis of lung cancer in 1981 [4]


---


“Reconciliation with the Collaborationists in Nanjing is simply not going to happen. The People’s Republic of China shall maintain its sovereignty in the face of danger, and while I cannot ascertain that we will be triumphant, nobody can say that we just let the Guomindang just trample over the world’s last true Marxist bastion. In addition, we must ensure that the reactionary murder of our Esteemed Chairman Zhou Enlai will be avenged a hundred fold.”


-Zhang Xueliang, in a speech given soon after his unexpected ascension to the position of Chairman of the Communist Party of China, delivered on May 4, 1966 *


---


“I was a ‘70s kid growing up in Pittsburgh. The times were full of disappointment and despair, even more so with my favorite television show as a child going off the air and my father coming home telling us he was laid off from the auto factory across town. Life was rough back then, and my father told me how rough the times were thirty and forty years prior, and where a man who proposed to fix our economy was killed for no noticeable reason. I am not entirely sure what got me into journalism, but I know for sure that without my reporting on the limited exchange between Arabia and Iran back in ‘88, I wouldn’t be where I am today.”


-News anchorman and television personality Timothy Regan, excerpted from his autobiography published in 2004 *




[1] A variation of this quote from Yuri Gagarin, the first person in orbit IOTL.
[2] Yes, that Fred M. Rogers. The reveal of this individual's Presidency was months after originally posting this.
[3] The first sentence is an OTL quote. The second one is not.
[4] Joseph P. Kennedy Jr. lives ITTL! And yes, that is an OTL quote from his father.

* Denotes that there is no direct analogue to this quote IOTL.

 

[eldandythedoubter]

Good lord, why do I get the feeling that Russia is about to get the "Twilight of the Red Tzar's" China treatment thanks to the civil war?

 

[Ruperto Pesto]

Ah, welcome aboard! Let me address Peron first:



This was a critical research error on my part, assuming that the '43 coup still went as OTL. (I've decided that this should be butterflied for reasons obvious to the premise of this TL.) When I get time tonight I will go back and retcon this detail, then I will fix the relevant updates.




Hmm... I don't follow soccer fútbol much and I haven't done a lot of research here, but before I go back and add World Cup winners to my pop culture updates, I will say that Austria sees quite a bit of continued success during this time period up until around 1950-ish.

I apologise for not being overly helpful, but you did point out a large oversight and gave me a little bit more content to work on. Thank you, though!


(EDIT: Went back and added TTL's FIFA World Cup winning teams, and also retconned the mentions of Juan Peron. He's now a retired army general and retired in his home city of Buenos Aires as an unremarkable historical figure.)

Thank you very much for your time AND answer! You're very kind! I Will keep on tuning this TL

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

Good lord, why do I get the feeling that Russia is about to get the "Twilight of the Red Tzar's" China treatment thanks to the civil war?

The good news is that Russia isn't getting nuked more than it already had been in '56. The bad news is... Well...

Spoilers aside a terrible precedent will be set for all further major conventional wars fought in the rest of the twentieth century:

REGAN: The Soviet Civil War was almost the second war in human history where nuclear weapons were used against another participating party, and even though there was no such exchange, biochemical warfare was indeed employed...

-

Thank you very much for your time AND answer! You're very kind! I Will keep on tuning this TL

You're more than welcome. I usually do my best to be respectful and kind in my dialogue with others; a little goes a long way!

 

[DAv]

Some good quotes there, leading up to what should be an interesting few years ahead, especially in Asia.

 

[Ruperto Pesto]

Having in mind there was not WW2 in the '40s, like our OTL...how about the weaponary and uniforms?, you said something about T-43 that didn't have the same development (T-34) due no battling against Nazi panzers, but now ITTL, did the germans developed a lot of weapons that were only in the drawing table as they did after Versailles?... is Tiger Panzer started to produce? or late german uniforms like camouflage patterns? is the StG-44 being produced?, perhaps german civil war gave some experiences to designers for close combat, but well, I have this curiosity, as well as PPSh 41 or 43 for russians

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

Having in mind there was not WW2 in the '40s, like our OTL...how about the weaponary and uniforms?, you said something about T-43 that didn't have the same development (T-34) due no battling against Nazi panzers, but now ITTL, did the germans developed a lot of weapons that were only in the drawing table as they did after Versailles?

Some German weapons still exist, the emphasis on quality as per the trope of German engineering persists into the production these. Details below. German uniforms look like a cross between

... is Tiger Panzer started to produce? or late german uniforms like camouflage patterns? is the StG-44 being produced?, perhaps german civil war gave some experiences to designers for close combat, but well, I have this curiosity, as well as PPSh 41 or 43 for russians

We still get the Tiger I and II, the first one gets some light use in the German Civil War but it's not as mass-produced as you think it might be, considering... Well, it's a civil war and you have Versailles restrictions on re-armament being followed up until the beginning of the War. And supply shortages across the board for everybody at some point or another make the tanks in this conflict a mixed bag. Depending on what side you're on and what time of the war it is, your tanks might be in good condition (everybody in late 1933), but wear and tear and factories making more guns and artillery rather than tanks was, needless to say, both inconvenient and a reason why German tanks come the '50s are designed with even more quality in mind. The Tiger II gets use in the early stages of World War II, and is supplanted by the naturally superior Tiger III (not from OTL) in early 1956, just in time for driving into western Russia.

The PPSh 41 still exists ITTL, the PPSh 43 does too, and future weapons in the family are adopted en masse by the Red Army. Without a 1940s WWII, Mikhail Kalashnikov never becomes a weapon designer, and on top of the StG-44 never coming into existence as well, we don't (gasp!) get the AK-47 or any of its successors ITTL. (Since I'm not a gun expert, I won't go into further details, but I will say that Soviet assault weapons are of notably lower quality in this world, at the bare minimum until 1955. Details might or might not appear in the Soviet Civil War update proper, FYI.)

 

[HonestAbe1809]

Some German weapons still exist, the emphasis on quality as per the trope of German engineering persists into the production these. Details below. German uniforms look like a cross between



We still get the Tiger I and II, the first one gets some light use in the German Civil War but it's not as mass-produced as you think it might be, considering... Well, it's a civil war and you have Versailles restrictions on re-armament being followed up until the beginning of the War. And supply shortages across the board for everybody at some point or another make the tanks in this conflict a mixed bag. Depending on what side you're on and what time of the war it is, your tanks might be in good condition (everybody in late 1933), but wear and tear and factories making more guns and artillery rather than tanks was, needless to say, both inconvenient and a reason why German tanks come the '50s are designed with even more quality in mind. The Tiger II gets use in the early stages of World War II, and is supplanted by the naturally superior Tiger III (not from OTL) in early 1956, just in time for driving into western Russia.

The PPSh 41 still exists ITTL, the PPSh 43 does too, and future weapons in the family are adopted en masse by the Red Army. Without a 1940s WWII, Mikhail Kalashnikov never becomes a weapon designer, and on top of the StG-44 never coming into existence as well, we don't (gasp!) get the AK-47 or any of its successors ITTL. (Since I'm not a gun expert, I won't go into further details, but I will say that Soviet assault weapons are of notably lower quality in this world, at the bare minimum until 1955. Details might or might not appear in the Soviet Civil War update proper, FYI.)

1. a cross between what and what?
2. I'm imagining the Tiger III looking something like a fusion of the King Tiger and the later Leopard tank.
3. Did anyone think of developing a gun somewhere between a submachine gun and a rifle? The name "assault rifle" would be butterflied since that's just a translation of what "Sturmgewehr" meant in German.

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

a cross between what and what?

Ah, crap, I didn't finish my thought there! In any case, they look like a cross between the Reichwehr, Wehrmacht, and Bundeswehr uniforms, more the former during the German Civil War, more the latter with the Second World War, but with a little bit of the middle (the overt militarism taken down two notches) present from 1936 onward.

I'm imagining the Tiger III looking something like a fusion of the King Tiger and the later Leopard tank.

Since I like this mental image so much I'm just going to make this canon and I'll credit any further mention of it to you in the footnotes.

Did anyone think of developing a gun somewhere between a submachine gun and a rifle? The name "assault rifle" would be butterflied since that's just a translation of what "Sturmgewehr" meant in German.

They did, actually, and it came from somewhere you wouldn't first expect.
And yes, the "assault rifle" as a common name is butterflied.

Spoiler

Its Two Suns counterpart, however, is the original to TTL Japanese "automatic machine rifle", the Type 121 manufactured by Arisaka (which has since diversified the types of guns it manufactures) and designed by some of Japan's brightest arms designers in the early 1950s. The Soviets, impressed with this and similar to their own impressions IOTL with the butterflied StG-44, debuted their own knockoff "machine rifle" after the end of the War, the AF-60*, similar in appearance to OTL's AK-47 but manufactured more crudely and with light to moderate reliability problems (i.e. occasional jamming). This bootleg, in spite of these flaws, will see widespread use in the Soviet Civil War.

*Named after one Vladimir Grigoryevich Fyodorov, a weapons designer and scientist IOTL. If it weren't for logistical problems and resource availability in the immediate postwar the AF-60 would have been a more reliable and high-quality machine rifle, but that's not the case here.

 

[TheDetailer]

@AeroTheZealousOne

Another question, albeit a different one. What if in a hypothetical scenario. Somehow the world of Two Suns Shall Set received evidence of what happened in OTL? For example, let's say that an ASB comes over decides to download the entirety of Wikipedia and various other websites such as Youtube as of February 2019 onto the Internet for everybody ITTL to read and watch. Assuming that they don't pass it off as some big hoax, how would they react? What would they think of our history, culture, and geopolitics?

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

Oh dear, did it really take me a werk and a half to address this? My apologies, @TheDetailer!

@AeroTheZealousOne

Another question, albeit a different one. What if in a hypothetical scenario. Somehow the world of Two Suns Shall Set received evidence of what happened in OTL? For example, let's say that an ASB comes over decides to download the entirety of Wikipedia and various other websites such as Youtube as of February 2019 onto the Internet for everybody ITTL to read and watch. Assuming that they don't pass it off as some big hoax, how would they react? What would they think of our history, culture, and geopolitics?

Well, let me put it this way: I can't answer this question in full without mentioning one or two major spoilers , and as such I will have to get back to part of this question later on. Do you want the reactions from TTL 1960 or from later?

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

Sorry, no update today.

Well, I've had a difficult time coming up with how I wanted to write Chapter 11, and what I wanted to write about. So I decided to outsource this decision-making and see what you folks wanted to see first. Happy Voting!

Here's how it'll work: The item with the most votes is what my next chapter will be on, followed by that with the second-most, and so on. I'll give everybody a week or so, and then we'll go from there.

The results are in, check the next page.