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AeroTheZealousOne

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Yeah. How are the states dealing with the huge numbers of refugees pouring from Russia?

They're handling it like they've always handled refugees from foreign countries: by passing an act that limits immigration from people originating from various regions. President Kennedy has quite a bit on his plate, and the isolationists as a political force are still alive and kicking in the United States.

How did Europe act during this? Seems that they weren't entire averse to dealing with Moscow and Leningrad at least.

Europe was like "that's your problem, comrades", since they just got finished with a war they wanted to be left alone to rebuild (especially Germany and Eastern Europe) and there was another foreign entanglement brewing that kept most of their attention away from Russia becoming a failed state. They were willing to provide humanitarian aid, some people out of the kindness of their hearts but much of it was procured with a good chunk of whatever money the USSR's warlord states had left mixed in with some gold here and there. Very few weapons were purchased abroad, some smuggled in from underground Japanese communists to Siberia and sent West on the parts of the Trans-Siberian Railroad that were still in working order and not decaying from lack of maintenance, others from Iberia mixed in with the humanitarian aid also found their way into the mess.
 
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How does the Internet develop ITTL?

Also, what will be the last event that is somewhat recognisable/comparable/similar to our own, before this timeline spirals into rabbit hole of unrecognizability?
 

AeroTheZealousOne

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How does the Internet develop ITTL?

Also, what will be the last event that is somewhat recognisable/comparable/similar to our own, before this timeline spirals into rabbit hole of unrecognizability?

The Internet is developed more as an inter-university civilian project than a military project. With an entirely different series of events that leads to an incredibly loose "Shadow War" between Europe and Japan (with Italy's sphere as a third wheel) and with the United States generally lacking involvement in world affairs beyond enforcing the Monroe Doctrine (on paper) and trade agreements with her neighbors and Europe (in practice), ARPANET is butterflied entirely. Research and development towards connection protocols is stunted by a general worldwide lack of funds in the 1970s and a few different people in different circumstances. I'll dedicate a special update to explaining this better, but it starts out more centered towards Europe, specifically England, France, Germany, and Italy than it does the United States and Canada.

There are some events that occur later on that are parallels/analogues/rough equivalents of OTL events, some with their own twists. The Indochinese War could be compared to the Vietnam War of OTL but it's the locals fighting for independence, the French fighting to maintain control over the colony, and the Japanese wanting a piece of the pie by playing both sides and somehow being a third side at the same time. Further parallels will exist with a few other conflicts, but there will be twists that essentially destroy further ones. I'd say somewhere between the beginning of the Second Great Depression in '73 and certain events in Asia unfolding across the 1980s is where some things become difficult to recognize. Pop culture is already massively affected, becoming incredibly apparent as the 1960s unfold.
 
Chapter 13.5: Aftermath of the Soviet Civil War

AeroTheZealousOne

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Chapter 13.5: Aftermath of the Soviet Civil War

When the dust settled, Yezhov and Beria were dead, Kaganovich and his (former) subordinates were either dead or languishing in Lubyanka, and there were only two political forces remaining out of the Civil War: The aging Marshal Zhukov with much of the Red Army at his command, and a faction of the Civil War that shocked the world by merely making it out of this mess alive without resorting to the terrible methods of the other parties. A multi-party convention was held from April of 1970 until September of 1971 to decide on the future course of the nation, a course that would involve rebuilding, and would involve failsafes to prevent the instability that plagued the post-WWII troubles that led to the near-inevitable Civil War.

The outcome of the convention held in Moscow was as follows, though many broad strokes would occur before and after, not just during:


* The NKVD would be permanently dissolved. Forces who surrendered to the Red Army and various aligned militias who went on to serve against their former allegiance would be rehabilitated.
* Forces who surrendered but did not later fight on would be put to trial, but only those who committed egregious war crimes would be ruthlessly punished under the full extent of the law.
* Generals who fought under the commands of Nikolai Yezhov or Lavrentiy Beria would be put on trial for crimes against humanity and crimes against peace, concepts that, just years earlier, were alien to many of the common folk of the country. Those found guilty would be put to death.
* Lazar Kaganovich would be charged with numerous crimes, including the aforementioned crimes against peace, crimes against humanity, and general war crimes, alongside charges of treason. (Kaganovich would later be sentenced to death and executed on the 55th anniversary of the Revolution on the Gregorian Calendar: November 7, 1972.)
* Alexander Shelepin would face trial under charges of treason. (He would be found guilty, but taking into consideration his reluctant but willing surrender as well as collaboration with the Red Army in hunting down the traitorous NKVD remnants, would instead face ten years of jail time rather than a firing squad.)
* The re-establishment of both the Politburo and Central Committee, with appointments made by leadership positions in the Red Army and the more civilian-leaning provisional government still centered in Leningrad.
* The production and use of flamethrowers for any and all purposes are to be banned. Any and all remaining flamethrowers or similar incendiary devices[1] were to be turned in to Soviet authorities and properly destroyed.
* The production and use of biological and chemical weapons for any and all means and ends are to be banned. Any and all such weapons are to be turned in to Soviet authorities and properly destroyed.
* Numerous other clauses agreed upon, mostly minor in significance.


After the Moscow Convention of 1971-72, at least twenty thousand men and women from across all warring factions in the conflict would be sent to trial and put to death hours later[2], with a further fifty thousand or more serving hard labor in the frozen lands of northern Siberia[3]. Others, if they held positions in the Army before the War and defected to fight for another leader but did not have a high rank and did not burn people alive, were dishonored for desertion, stripped of their ranks, and discharged, but were otherwise given a lighter hand than the rest. Following the end of what many dubbed the "Second Great Purge"[4], Marshal Zhukov announced to the Union that he was stepping down from his position and retiring from official service, effective at the end of 1972. Many were sad to see the departure of one of the men who saved the Union, and even sadder once the stress of managing everything and his old age caught up with him. passing away months later. This threw whoever was left in any semblance of authority into a brief power struggle for leadership of the Union, one that shockingly (to the cynics, anyway) didn't result in another civil war. The details aren't all that important, but nobody in the Red Army had the charisma and stature of Zhukov, and most politicians left were the reform-minded moderates, so the event was rather civil, with impassioned speeches, promises made, and a few white lies here and there. The recently appointed and reconvened bureaucratic bodies of the Union voted to give the Premiership to Alexei Kosygin, the senior partner in the Kosygin-Gromyko duumvirate that dominated the reformist clique of the 1960s. The margin was difficult to dispute, and Kosygin set out on the difficult task of overseeing the reconstruction of the crumbled Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

Railroads were rebuilt, power lines went up, materials flowed again, and farms began to grow more food beyond subsistence again. State-sponsored manufacturing was put into place, and the five-year plans that characterized part of the economic policy of the late Stalin were put into place with mostly reasonable quotas. Collectivization was not enforced, private plots of land were allotted to various individuals, and public works programs were started to expand the rebuilt infrastructure, including extensions of sewer systems. Medicine would remain in short supply throughout the early-to-mid 1970s, but some areas were sparsely populated enough that it wouldn't be all that easy to spread. Infrastructure in Siberia, neglected since the early fifties, would be brought up to modern standards. Stalingrad (now renamed Volgograd), Smolensk, Yakutsk, Rostov, and eastern Krasnoyarsk would all be rebuilt from the ground up with architectural styles both new and old. (Dnepropetrovsk fell within Ukraine, and was already mostly rebuilt by occupying forces.) A new constitution was written, and certain freedoms were legislated and small-scale market reforms were implemented. Worker's rights were enshrined, and local elections[5] were occurring for the first time in decades. A new flag would soon be adopted in an effort to look towards the future rather than continue living within the past, and debates would rage in the Central Committee over whether to adopt a new and forward-looking name for their Motherland, ones that would fizzle out after the eventual re-integration of Central Asian territories that were part of the Union before the Civil War.

The ongoing Second Great Depression, with the USSR not engaging with much of any trading with the West and Japan's sphere of influence, did not strongly affect the state of the Union. The nation wasn't exporting all that much, anyway. The Russians were a perseverent and hardy people, roughing out the hopelessness of years past the best they could. And through the 1970s, the economic woes that would cause the end of the Italian Empire, the accelerated destabilization of Japan and her Co-Prosperity Sphere and causing the sleeping-in giant that was the United States to finally take measures to prevent another economic disaster did little to the battered nation whose duct tape was slowly but surely being replaced with strong welding and new steel. While Kosygin would die in 1977 from the stresses of leadership, Andrei Gromyko, his former partner, would become General Secretary with wide support in the echelons of government and of the people whose quality of life improving for the first time since the 1940s.

Russia will slowly move on from the horrors of her past towards a brighter future. The scars of the 1950s and 1960s would never truly disappear, and millions upon millions of human beings would have to live with how it affected them physically and psychologically. The government truly wanted to help the people, not just to ease their pain. The optimism didn't start out early, but as the years went on it built itself up, and a general sense that life was truly worth living began to emerge. Even with the rest of the world facing its own problems and the problems encompassing much of the rest of Asia, from Japan's numerous crises getting out of hand to India's looming debt crisis and sectarian divides to the regimes within Arabia and Iran acquiring nuclear weapons. Even with the dark places on Earth getting darker by the day. And even though the USSR was far from utopian, Russia stole a phrase out of American history, denoting this time in the Soviet Union (technically now just the Russian SFSR) as the "Era of Good Feelings", lasting from 1978 until certain events outside of the country occurred in August of 1986...[6]



DEATH TOLL - EARLY ESTIMATES: ~30 million estimated casualties between the years 1962 and 1971 directly as a result of the circumstances of war
* approx. 20 million from starvation and/or famine and related malnutrition problems
* approx. 6 million from naturally-spreading diseases
* a little under 5 million in combat, including deaths from biochemical warfare



FINAL DEATH TALLY AFTER INTENSE STUDY, AS OF THE YEAR 2000:
32,071,598 fatalities directly related to the 2nd Russian Civil War, with over half a million bodies missing and presumed dead.



[1] Items used to light fires in fireplaces or campfires that didn't have all that much of a military application were naturally exempt from this legislation.
[2] The Soviets when it comes to kangaroo courts have a... uh, a very interesting interpretation of the Sixth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, you see. The main focus is on the "right to a speedy trial" whilst ignoring most of the other language.
[3] I mean, what did you expect? This war was a black and gray morality type of thing, where the reformist forces had their own flaws and the Red Army Junta in Moscow wasn't the most democratic or the most soft, but at least they weren't bonkers like seemingly everyone else. After a grueling war, there are plenty of people who are more than pissed that so many people are dead and their beautiful homeland is a shell of its former self.
[4] More deadly than the first one, but unlike the first one more of its victims were deserving of what they got. Not all of them, mind you, but the previous footnote probably reflects the prevalent mindset.
[5] They're not as 'free' as the West would want them to be, and they're not the de-facto socialist democracy that is the Iberian Confederation, but they're on the right track. The Communist Party is still the only major party allowed to participate, though independents are getting some token support here and there. Popular elections at the national level won't be a thing until the 1990s, where some fresh faces will finally make their way into the limelight...
[6] Details on this event will not be provided prematurely. You're welcome to speculate, though.
 
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Man, this makes the First Russian Civil War seem like Slovenia's Ten Day War. This seems more like an industrial warfare version of the Taiping rebellion.

At least Kosygin is abandoning ideological inflexibility and rebuilding the country.
 
You may have answered this at some point, but what's Stalin's reputation like in this timeline, both in and out of the USSR? Given the events of the Soviet Civil War, even Stalin's iron fist must look like a summer camp in comparison.
 

AeroTheZealousOne

Monthly Donor
You may have answered this at some point, but what's Stalin's reputation like in this timeline, both in and out of the USSR? Given the events of the Soviet Civil War, even Stalin's iron fist must look like a summer camp in comparison.

Inside the USSR, while not pictured as the most saintly of figures de-Stalinization doesn't take as strong of a hold and he is painted in a better light for bringing stability and strength to the USSR before his untimely death. He's definitely more popular than literally everyone who succeeded him up to Kosygin. Outside of the USSR, his reputation is not that great, considering he did plan out and launch World War II, after all. Japan's Imperialism and Soviet Central Planning didn't mix well, thus Japan has its own Red Scare on steroids. He's viewed quite unfavorably within Germany and across Eastern Europe. Heck, all of Europe save for Iberia and the partisans in the Balkans did a fine job demonizing him in their respective propaganda pieces. Some residual stuff into the 60s did leave some calls for intervening in Russia's little rebellions, but defeating independence movements in certain colonies that just didn't seem to want to politically associate with their former states was a higher priority for their politicians.

The U.S. doesn't care all that much, they had their Red Scare during World War I and some years afterward (as per OTL) and even though President Taft did speak with some rhetoric here and there but unlike in Japan and unoccupied Europe, the mentality was much, much weaker.
 
You may have answered this at some point, but what's Stalin's reputation like in this timeline, both in and out of the USSR? Given the events of the Soviet Civil War, even Stalin's iron fist must look like a summer camp in comparison.
Something tells me he’s going to be the closest figure ITTL to have legacy comparable to Hitler...
 
The U.S. doesn't care all that much, they had their Red Scare during World War I and some years afterward (as per OTL) and even though President Taft did speak with some rhetoric here and there but unlike in Japan and unoccupied Europe, the mentality was much, much weaker.

Speaking of which, what’s happened to Joe McCarthy, his followers, and the people whose careers and reputations he ruined?
 

AeroTheZealousOne

Monthly Donor
Something tells me he’s going to be the closest figure ITTL to have legacy comparable to Hitler...

I really want to say "That'd actually be Codreanu", but I have a strong feeling that you're right, simply because the equivalent of Godwin's Law ITTL will go a little something like this, with just a few words shifted around from its OTL counterpart:

The ATL equivalent of Godwin's Law said:
"As an Internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving [hard-line] Communists or Stalin approaches one."


Speaking of which, what’s happened to Joe McCarthy, his followers, and the people whose careers and reputations he ruined?

I apparently forgot to mention him in one of those WATN bonus updates. Somewhere on one of my computers I have notes on him and forgot to make that particular edit revealing his fate. Here's his added-in "Where Are They Now?" entry for 1950:

AeroTheZealousOne said:
The judicial career of one Joseph Raymond McCarthy was relatively successful while it lasted, the formerly inexperienced judge clearing the backlog of his predecessor quite quickly. The man avoided losing evidence the best he could, and became known throughout the 1940s as a surprisingly effective and fast-working judge locally. Censured for misplacing evidence in spite of his best efforts anyway, he would ultimately be disbarred in 1947 after a drunken rant, the details of which are hazy even for those who transcribed it. His reputation as the "town drunk" in Shawano was enforced. Fortune does not shine upon him, and he's likely to live the rest of his days in obscurity...

Hollywood isn't spewing anti-communist pro-patriotic propaganda, and thus the careers of people such as Charlie Chaplin, the Hollywood Ten, and so many other people blacklisted in the United States aren't cut short. I can't really say the same for some people in Europe, but the specifics on this are for another update at another time. That said, the Communist Party doesn't really gain or lose popularity during this era, even though they got some boosts during the Great Depression. The Taft era gave them a small boost with anti-union legislation resulting in some strikes, but things have yet to be dire enough where it's feasible for them and other left-wing parties to get electoral votes.

McCarthy's followers from OTL are either political nobodies, less vocal on their views, or a combination of the two.


(For the record, you're getting credited in the acknowledgements as my #1 fan and an inspiration for numerous bonus updates once this huge and almost incoherent mess I have the audacity to call a "timeline" gets well and truly finished.)
 
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BigBlueBox

Banned
A few questions: Did Hungary gain any territory from Czechoslovakia, and if so, how much?
How effectively has Poland dealt with the Ukrainian insurgency ITTL? It's not going to go away with words, and the establishment of an independent Ukraine gives it a base of operations or even an active sponsor.
 
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AeroTheZealousOne

Monthly Donor
A few questions: Did Hungary gain any territory from Czechoslovakia, and if so, how much?

A stretch of land in Southern Slovakia pushing the border some kilometers inward making border towns out of Kosice and Bratislava, but that's about it.

How effectively has Poland dealt with the Ukrainian insurgency ITTL? It's not going to go away with words, and the establishment of an independent Ukraine gives it a base of operations or even an active sponsor.

Being focused on so much I honestly forgot about the Ukrainian insurgency! My bad. Since the next update just so happens to be about proxy conflicts (i.e. the Indochinese Independence War) and low-level military conflicts (e.g. the Zionists in Palestine; the Teskoce; fringe pan-Arab militarists in Italian Libya) they'll get a paragraph or two. Let's just say that while it's not as bad as it could possibly be, it's still a bit of a royal pain for Poland to have to deal with.
 
What happens to Anne Frank, Martin Luther King Jr., Rosa Parks, and Harvey Milk ITTL?

Also what about Cartoons and Animated Shows and Movies?
 

AeroTheZealousOne

Monthly Donor
What happens to Anne Frank, Martin Luther King Jr., Rosa Parks, and Harvey Milk ITTL?

There's a "Where Are They Now?" bonus update with their names on it.

Also what about Cartoons and Animated Shows and Movies?

Waaaaay too broad of a question for me to answer informally with heavy detail at this time with a lot of knowledge, but they all still exist and are still being made in some fashion or another ITTL. British animation is beginning to take off this decade as well, so they'll have something in store. Disney's still obviously making animated movies every now and then. There's a general 1960s pop culture update coming up for Chapter 15, and I'll be sure to cover all of these and more, not to mention as some original content as well. I'm sorry if this wasn't as thorough as you were hoping. :( A lot of OTL stuff at this point is getting butterflied away due to the circumstances (both fortunate and not) this world finds itself in, and I find that the relatively brief pop culture updates are something I can no longer in good conscience get away with.

If you or anyone else have any ideas for stuff for me to cover in the 1960s and beyond, or even a contribution or two (pop culture or not), feel free to say so, spoiler-mark it if need be, or better yet, PM me! ;)
 

AeroTheZealousOne

Monthly Donor
Oh, okay then. That's understandable.

On that topic, here's the planned update list for the next week or two or three:

  • Chapter 14 will primarily cover these points ripped straight from my note file:
    * The Indochinese War (France v. Japan v. Indochinese rebels)
    * The Palestinian War (UK v. pro-Zionist paramilitaries v. Palestinian separatists
    * The Algerian War (France v. Algerian separatists) Retconned and potentially delayed
    * The Libyan Revolt (Italy v. Libyan separatists) Delayed to the 1970s
    * South Africa Will cover in the WATN bonus update
    * United States (Assassination of President George Wallace; Presidency of Joe P. Kennedy Jr.)
    * Iberia (How are they faring? I've been mentioning them off-hand, after all...)
    * Japan (Politics in the Co-Prosperity Sphere and Japan's below-the-surface issues)
  • Chapter 15 will be the '60s Pop Culture Update, these ones come every five chapters or so. No plans for this one yet.
  • The 1970 "Where Are They Now?" bonus update follows. Feel free to send me lists of people you want me to cover, and I'll be happy to add them!
  • Chapter 16 goes back to the '60s for just a moment to cover a delayed Space Race between Japan and a collaborating Britain-France-Germany, with Italy as a bit of a third wheel. The United States doesn't have the imperative to invest in its STEM programs because there are no commies strong enough to challenge the pride of American Capitalism, the budget isn't there and Europe is generally friendly. (They strongly underestimate the Japanese space program because of general racism.) This has its own cultural ripple effects (e.g. "In God We Trust" doesn't appear on the U.S. Dollar).
  • Chapter 17 marks a true turning point in future developments to this world, with many old mindsets finally losing their relevance. The Second Great Depression and its causes are finally revealed, with big ramifications for Italy and even bigger ones for Japan.
Over the course of today and this weekend once some homework for college is out of the way Chapter 14 will be up. It's going to be another big one, and I'm finally back to some semblance of a writing schedule now that the Soviet Civil War is finally out of the way.
 
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On that topic, here's the planned update list for the next week or two or three:

  • Chapter 14 will primarily cover these points ripped straight from my note file:
    * The Indochinese War (France v. Japan v. Indochinese rebels)
    * The Palestinian War (UK v. pro-Zionist paramilitaries v. Palestinian separatists
    * The Algerian War (France v. Algerian separatists)
    * The Libyan Revolt (Italy v. Pan-Arab separatists)

    * South Africa (Avoidance of apartheid, low-level conflict with Afrikaner segregationists)
    * United States (Assassination of President George Wallace; Presidency of Joe P. Kennedy Jr.)
    * Japan (Politics in the Co-Prosperity Sphere and Japan's below-the-surface issues)
    .

Colonial wars? That sounds like a fun read. It is about as uplifting a topic as serial killers or hate speech.

Seriously, a colonial war involving France AND Japan sounds like a bloodbath. Japanese imperialism is already awful but the French brought their own horrors to the table OTL.
 
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