Two Russias

Is it possible for Russia to split into two sperate nations after the Russian Civil War, one red and communist and the other white and quasi-facist? If so what would their broders look like?
 

MSZ

Banned
Hardly. The Bolsheviks were adamant about regaining not only all the territories of the Russian Empire, but expanding communism everywhere else as well. You would need some kind of Russian 'state' to form during the RCW - not just an army occupying territory like OTL, its not the same - and have it manage to survivive whatever onslaught comes. For it to survuve, it would not only require statehood organization, but foreign support as well - and that is in short supply as well.

Most likely scenario would probably involve the Japanese forming a "Far Eastern Russian Republic" as a Manchukuo-like puppet state, protected by the Japanese Army. Still, this would require a change in government in Japan, as the OTL one wasn't so much interested in nortwards expansion. Sothe OTL nationalists coming to power two decades eariler could give you a shot.

Another option would be Southern Russian Republic around Kuban, managing so survive until the end of the Polish-Bolshevik war and granted independence like OTL Latvia and Estonia with the peace of Riga. It could be combined with the Caucasus nations as well. Perhaps a "Lavr Kornilov survives" scenario would allow the Whites forces to survive there long enough, especially if they united with Deniekin's forces in the Ukraine.
 
It might be possible if you had foreign support for the White Russian state.

Perhaps the Whites proclaim a separate republic in the Crimea or in Siberia and received British or Japanese support? Perhaps Lenin decides it's better to leave it as is while he consolidates his power everywhere else.
 
Russia? No. The geography doesn't permit it. There were states that broke off, where it was geographically permissible and/or outside aid made it possible. Any power controlling enough of the Moscow region is in a good position to overwhelm any of the paltry in size White forces, and the Whites can only win by becoming the exact opposite of what they were IRL.
 
I think that white forces could establish a state in the Urkine or somewhere southeren part of the empire.
 
one thing I'm wondering is what about not 2 russia but 1 large (bolshevick) and a few competing smaller polities that separately cannot achieve much but together keep draging enough resources from the reds that the later cannnot achieve dominance. these polities could be a combination of ethnic groups and foreign back dissidents.
 
one thing I'm wondering is what about not 2 russia but 1 large (bolshevick) and a few competing smaller polities that separately cannot achieve much but together keep draging enough resources from the reds that the later cannnot achieve dominance. these polities could be a combination of ethnic groups and foreign back dissidents.

This is OTL, namely the USSR, Romania's successful nabbing of Bessarabia, and the creation of Finland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania out of the old Tsarist Empire.
 

MSZ

Banned
I think that white forces could establish a state in the Urkine or somewhere southeren part of the empire.

Kill of Denikin early enough for Wrangel to take over command over the White Forces in the South (as he wasn't a "one and undivided Russia"-type nationalist) and seal a deal with Britain and Poland in early 1919 for the two to provide him with equipment and manpower. Even if they fail in defeating the Bolsheviks, they stand a chance to secure some state of their own in Riga peace talks. Only if it forms in the Ukraine, it will not be country with "Russia" in its name.
 
I was thinking of it going even further with ukraine going anarchist, japanese-backed far-east, cosack state, etc....

Not happening.

Kill of Denikin early enough for Wrangel to take over command over the White Forces in the South (as he wasn't a "one and undivided Russia"-type nationalist) and seal a deal with Britain and Poland in early 1919 for the two to provide him with equipment and manpower. Even if they fail in defeating the Bolsheviks, they stand a chance to secure some state of their own in Riga peace talks. Only if it forms in the Ukraine, it will not be country with "Russia" in its name.

Wrangel still wants all-Russia, not Russia + Ukraine. There's no way any White leader solves *this* problem, especially if as per OTL they willfully ignore the potential alliance with the SRs that had at least the potential to wreak havocs behind Bolshevik lines.
 

MSZ

Banned
Wrangel still wants all-Russia, not Russia + Ukraine. There's no way any White leader solves *this* problem, especially if as per OTL they willfully ignore the potential alliance with the SRs that had at least the potential to wreak havocs behind Bolshevik lines.

Wrangel was willing to go with a "Russian Federation" scenario by 1920, and recognized the independence of the okrainas, including Ukraine's right to exist "seperatly" (whatever that meant) when he got to power. Whether this was the result of his personal beliefs, or the White's dire situation at the time is uncertain, but stil whichever it was, should he get to power earlier he could do the same earlier as well - early enough to make a difference.
 
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