Two-Russia's post Revolution?

Hey Guys,

I admit I have little-to-no knowledge of the internal situation of Russia during the February and October Revolutions, so pardon me if this scenario is particularly ASB or implausible.

Anyway, is there any way during said two rebellions for Russia to be split between two 'Russia's'? I don't mean splits such as Ukrainian or Central Asian independence, I mean the core of Russia splitting apart (which may lead to other nations declaring independence itself).

It's been discussed here about how Alaska may've been a centre for Monarchist/Republican independence from the Communist Russia, however is it possible for the core of Russia to split? It's likely it wouldn't split North/South, so if it were to split East/West where would the border be? Would it be the Ural Mountains? Some other natural border? Or would it be an unnatural border?

EDIT: Another prerequisite of this is that the two Russia's must stay divided, maybe not indefinitely but they must be able to survive.
 
Not really possible. The closest thing might be a Japan-backed state in the far eastern reaches of Siberia, but even that's rather unlikely. If the capitalist powers could've gotten away with splitting something off from the Reds, they would've. A Red Russia would not let the country be divided by foreign imperialism. And the Whites could not force the Reds into submission without claiming the Red industrial base in the urban region, which would effectively mean their death and they'd wrap things up themselves.
 
Yeah, some even division is difficult. The biggest natural barrier is the one that divides the majority of the people and resources off from Miles and Miles of Bloody Siberia, and the Reds early on took control of the key area. And if the Whites could have won in 1919, they'd win all-out.

You might manage some White rump state in the far east; or warlordism. But not a neat split.
 
You might manage some White rump state in the far east; or warlordism. But not a neat split.

I'm a bit skeptical about the far east. The Japanese couldn't be arsed to support a puppet state in the Far East in OTL, when the threat came from the USSR . If nobody wants to prop up a buffer against the Soviet Union....
 
Here's an idea:

Whites retain control over Ukraine, Byelorussia, St. Petersburg, Volgograd, Astrakhan and points south and some other important cities in core Russia (which combined form a pretty hefty chunk of Russia's raw materials and farmland), while the Reds also have to deal with roughly white alligned forces in Siberia and Central Asia (though these aren't formally part of the former state). The result is a Red Russia that spends a couple of decades crushing other opposition and preparing for round 2, and a Korea-style border rather than anything concrete.
 
You can't split Russian in two. The problem is that there is only one "core" the area of the oldest Russian lands, around Moscow. Whoewer is strong enough to control all of that will eventually take the rest too. There is no potential for the situation to stablise in a way that both sides are evenly matched and deadlocked until they agree to a ceasefire and setlle for what they have.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
It would be a fun scenario, but unfortunately it's ASB. Getting control of the more industrialized parts would give one faction such an unfair advantage. That faction would easily sweep European Russia, and even if the other faction can hold on in Siberia for quite a while, they'd fall in the end, since European Russia has so much more resources and population.
 

MSZ

Banned
Don't think it's possible - European Russia holds almost all of the russian states population and industry - whoever holds it will have an advantage over the other, and no side is actually willing to go for a Korea like scenario - both the reds and the whites want all of Russia under their rule.

The only way I could imagine in would be for the reds to conquer European Russia, the whites to form a united front against the reds, obtain enough Entante support to hold Siberia AND form an alliance with the newly independent states. A stalemate scenario with neither side capable of crossing the Urals, the entante, Poles and Finns not intresting in continuing the war and some ceasefire without peace between the whites and bolsheviks to happen. (It's still a very unlikely scenario, just thought it would be cool to see a Stalinist Russia pitted against Ungern-Sternberg Russia)
 
Post-1900? Really unlikely.
Maybe if Russia has some territory really isolated from the rest (one writer did it with "Crimea Island", Alaska is also a common choice) and the Whites go there, then they could maybe remain there until the Reds are tired. But that's ASB even at the outset - it would likely require both a pre-1900 POD and a total absence of butterflies later on.
Even that, as I Blame Communism put it quite well, would be more of "some White rump state in the far east" than anything. You aren't getting equality: 90+ percent of the population are in the West, and there aren't any real natural frontiers dividing it that don't only go less than halfway through (unlike what everyone seems to say there, there are some reasonable natural frontiers other than the Urals, but the only thing they do is divide one part of "miles and miles of bloody Siberia" (also per IBC) from another, and the bulk of the population is still out in the West).
 
Here's an idea:

Whites retain control over Ukraine, Byelorussia, St. Petersburg, Volgograd, Astrakhan and points south and some other important cities in core Russia (which combined form a pretty hefty chunk of Russia's raw materials and farmland), while the Reds also have to deal with roughly white alligned forces in Siberia and Central Asia (though these aren't formally part of the former state). The result is a Red Russia that spends a couple of decades crushing other opposition and preparing for round 2, and a Korea-style border rather than anything concrete.

The ''Whiltes'' never had Petrograd, Lenin moved the Soviet capital to Moscow because he throught Petrograd might fall, but it never did and even if it did there isnt much population in that part of Russia aside from the city itself...

Also even if the local Soviets backed by the Red Army dont manage to seize the Ukraine outright. It wont become a ''White'' stronghold, it'll be a failed state wracked by endless civil war.

Really if the Bolsheviks hold central Russia they'll win in the end, it's only a matter of time. As the outlying reagions simply arnt strong enougth to support themselves vis-a-vis the Soviet threat in the long term. And the ''Whites'' were just a bunch of loosly allied warlords not a single movement with much scope for governing even a rump state.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
If the CPs win the war, Germany would probably try and prop up a puppet White government in European Russia.
Onkel Willie's The Old World Burns has it.
But that government would eventually seize Siberia too, since European Russia still has much more resources and population. And the Reds would lack support in Siberia, unlike the Whites.
 
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