Two obscure PODs: Persian fleet not surrendering and Carthage aiding Tyre

Cuāuhtemōc · Jun 1, 2011

It's a question that has me wondering. What would happen if the Siege of Tyre lasts long enough and the minds of a few Carthaginian leaders are changed to have a fleet sent to aid the Tyrians against the great conqueror Alexander the Great and the Macedonian army. A secondary question might be if the Persian navy doesn't surrender and continues the fight, denying Alexander some of the ships he had received in OTL.

The Carthaginians promised to send ships to aid their mother city but those promises came rather empty since Alexander succeeded anyways. The navy of Carthage was a formidable force, and combined with what ships Tyre could spare, and that of the Persians. It was their last harbor in the region and they had much right to defend it. Are things too late for the Persian Empire's survival to have Tyre becoming a victory to change things?

Cuāuhtemōc · Jun 2, 2011

No one has anything to say? A shame. I always wanted to see how Alexander could handle Carthage early on.

SavoyTruffle · Jun 2, 2011

Drago said:
No one has anything to say? A shame. I always wanted to see how Alexander could handle Carthage early on.

I'm assuming that he has a harder time than OTL, considering that despite the Greek mastery of naval ways Alexander himself was probably no naval genius...

Pachac · Jun 2, 2011

Alexander has a very difficult time seizing the city of Gaza and probably slows himself down on Tyre. However, unfortunately, when he gets inland, there is nothing the Persians can do but wish for him to fail at Guagamela.

Cuāuhtemōc · Jun 2, 2011

SavoyTruffle said:
I'm assuming that he has a harder time than OTL, considering that despite the Greek mastery of naval ways Alexander himself was probably no naval genius...

Most of his ships came from Cyprus which defected from the Persian Empire. He was certainly no naval genius and Macedon had little when it comes to producing a navy.

Perhaps a lot more of his men end up dying with the additional Persian (and Carthaginian) ships defending Tyre.

SavoyTruffle · Jun 2, 2011

Drago said:
Most of his ships came from Cyprus which defected from the Persian Empire. He was certainly no naval genius and Macedon had little when it comes to producing a navy.

Perhaps a lot more of his men end up dying with the additional Persian (and Carthaginian) ships defending Tyre.

And he thus conquers the Persians later than OTL, or if Tyre proves to be too resilient then Alexander doesn't get it and Carthage could expand influence on it.

Pachac · Jun 2, 2011

SavoyTruffle said:
And he thus conquers the Persians later than OTL, or if Tyre proves to be too resilient then Alexander doesn't get it and Carthage could expand influence on it.

It would really depend on Alexaner's course of action. I for one felt that his megalomania had started after Issus so he would want to go to Egypt to listen to the oracle. I have doubts he'd allow the Levant to stay Persian.

Cuāuhtemōc · Jun 2, 2011

SavoyTruffle said:
And he thus conquers the Persians later than OTL, or if Tyre proves to be too resilient then Alexander doesn't get it and Carthage could expand influence on it.

It was actually Tyre's downfall that propelled Carthage's hegemony over the Phoencian colonies out west.

SavoyTruffle · Jun 2, 2011

Drago said:
It was actually Tyre's downfall that propelled Carthage's hegemony over the Phoencian colonies out west.

So in that case, if Tyre wins then Carthage won't be as powerful as OTL, but who knows...

Pachac · Jun 2, 2011

Well Tyre's downfall at this point didn't do very much for Carthage. The fact is that while Tyre controlled Eastern Mediterranean trade the Carthaginians didn't have any time to wiggle in that area before the Greeks replaced them.

Cuāuhtemōc · Jun 2, 2011

SavoyTruffle said:
So in that case, if Tyre wins then Carthage won't be as powerful as OTL, but who knows...

Very true. You might have another Punic city-state arising to contest Carthage's growing power like Utica.

I do like the idea of Alexander facing the Carthaginians. It might give him a little motivation to head out west.

SavoyTruffle · Jun 2, 2011

Drago said:
Very true. You might have another Punic city-state arising to contest Carthage's growing power like Utica.

I do like the idea of Alexander facing the Carthaginians. It might give him a little motivation to head out west.

That would butterfly away the Greco-Bactrian states, though.

Cuāuhtemōc · Jun 2, 2011

SavoyTruffle said:
That would butterfly away the Greco-Bactrian states, though.

Where would we be without Greco-Buddhism? it would probably be a sadder place.

Derek Pullem · Jun 2, 2011

Drago said:
Very true. You might have another Punic city-state arising to contest Carthage's growing power like Utica.

I do like the idea of Alexander facing the Carthaginians. It might give him a little motivation to head out west.

It would also keep him in the field in Europe and the Middle East. If Carthage becomes an active enemy then it's difficult to see him going futher East than Perseopolis / Susa before turning to settle scores with Carthage.

If that keeps him healthy for another decade or two, who knows what might happen.........

Cuāuhtemōc · Jun 2, 2011

Derek Pullem said:
It would also keep him in the field in Europe and the Middle East. If Carthage becomes an active enemy then it's difficult to see him going futher East than Perseopolis / Susa before turning to settle scores with Carthage.

If that keeps him healthy for another decade or two, who knows what might happen.........

He would probably try cutting a deal with Darius and go for Carthage. Maybe?

SavoyTruffle · Jun 2, 2011

Drago said:
He would probably try cutting a deal with Darius and go for Carthage. Maybe?

Like Alex getting Anatolia and most of the Levant, leaving him free to try and fight Carthage the way a leviathan fights a behemoth?

Cuāuhtemōc · Jun 2, 2011

SavoyTruffle said:
Like Alex getting Anatolia and most of the Levant, leaving him free to try and fight Carthage the way a leviathan fights a behemoth?

That would include Egypt, right?

Anyways it would be pretty cool to see Alexander attack Carthage. It at one point was an ally of Persia and was as much a menace to the Greek cities in Sicily as the Persians were to those of Greece.

It would be a death sentence to march through the Libyan deserts though and he has not much of a choice to go by ship.

SavoyTruffle · Jun 2, 2011

Drago said:
That would include Egypt, right?

Anyways it would be pretty cool to see Alexander attack Carthage. It at one point was an ally of Persia and was as much a menace to the Greek cities in Sicily as the Persians were to those of Greece.

It would be a death sentence to march through the Libyan deserts though and he has not much of a choice to go by ship.

And on the other hand, Carthage wasn't a military powerhouse - yes, Hannibal was a great general, but Alexander and his Macedonian phalanx-heavy cavalry combo are different from Scipio's infantry.

And even then Alexander has a good chance of winning against attempted Carthaginian operations, though he can't do much to them in turn.

Cuāuhtemōc · Jun 2, 2011

SavoyTruffle said:
And on the other hand, Carthage wasn't a military powerhouse - yes, Hannibal was a great general, but Alexander and his Macedonian phalanx-heavy cavalry combo are different from Scipio's infantry.

And even then Alexander has a good chance of winning against attempted Carthaginian operations, though he can't do much to them in turn.

Unless he makes a death march and tries to conquer Carthage. Though the Sicilian Greeks would pretty not be happy in trading overlords.

Errnge · Jun 2, 2011

i believe alexander had plans to conquer carthage before he died. carthaginian interference might make him get on that a lot quicker